RE: [PEIRCE-L] Representing sign relations in existential graphs
Jon, List, The following is a definition of the sign relation by Peirce that has a direct mapping to and from an existential graph: “A sign is anything A, in a relation, r to something B, its object, this relation r consisting in fitness to determine something so as to produce something, C, the interpretant of the sign." (1904 MS L107:25) The date 1904 is significant because Peirce was actively writing his late Monist articles, discussing significs and semeiotic with Lady Welby, and working on his proof of pragmaticism. Before, during, and after that time, he was also writing and lecturing about EGs, especially in his Logic Notebook. Note that the EG implied by that quotation has a relation r in with three correlates A, B, and C. That has the same sshape as your EG with the sign as A and 'mediating' as the relation. It also has the same shape as the EG I drew below in a note to Cécile. The most important distinction, however, is one that Noeth implied and that Cécile had noticed when she used the word 'sign-object'. That word is synonymous with the word 'sign-mark' that I had adopted after reading Noeth's remark. Both of them are passive, but perceptible objects, things, or marks that people interpret as sign-objects or sign-marks. But the sign itself, as Peirce repeatedly said is triadic. In Peirce's quotation above, the "anything A" is a passive sign object or mark that serves as first correlate. The relation r is the active triadic sign relation. In Noeth's quotation, he wrote that "sign, representamen, or representation were synonymously used as the names referring to the first correlate of the triadic relation of semiosis." But sign as representation or representamen is active, not passive. I believe that in the quotation that has a direct translation to an EG, the first correlate A is the passive sign object or mark. And the relation r is the verb form that is a synonym for the active verb 'represents'. The text below is a combination of two notes that I sent to Cécile on January 6 and 7. John PS:My drawings of EGs below line up very nicely in the type font I'm using for writing this note. But readers may view it with a different font that does not line up correctly. If so, you can make the diagrams line up by adding or deleing spaces to make the characters / and \ link correctly to the words above and below those lines. From: "John F Sowa" Cécile, After reading this thread, I found a quotation by Peirce that shows how to draw an existential graph that follows Peirce's words quite closely. It's also consistent with the quotation by Noeth: "Peirce did consider the sign to be a triadic relation, but only in 1868. However, from 1873 onwards, sign, representamen, or representation were synonymously used as the names referring to the first correlate of the triadic relation of semiosis" (p. 455). The key to the analysis is the recognition that every sign has a physically perceptible mark. That mark is only a sign when somebody interprets it as a sign. Therefore, we should distinguish the physical sign-mark or sign-object from its action as a representamen or representation. Since nobody has found an EG drawn by Peirce to represent the sign relation, the best we can do is to find a quotation by Peirce that has a simple translation to an EG. The following quotation is a good candidate: “A sign is anything A, in a relation, r to something B, its object, this relation r consisting in fitness to determine something so as to produce something, C, the interpretant of the sign." (1904 MS L107:25) Since Peirce had drawn many EGs before and after 1904, he probably had a direct translation to an EG in mind. He might have drawn an example on his blackboard. Note that this quotation mentions four items: A, B, C, and a triadic relation r. As an example, let's consider the word "cat' as a sign-object A in a relation of representation r to a concept of a cat B to determine a fuzzy animal C as the interpretation of the sign. Following is an EG that represents the sentence: "The word "cat" represents a concept CAT to determine a particular animal named Felix." Represents /|\ "cat" CAT Felix Shorter sentence: The word 'cat' represents a cat named Felix. This example follows L107;25 quite directly. I won't claim that it is exactly what Peirce would have drawn, but it follows his words closely. Since Peirce often represented EG relations by verbs, the verb 'represents' may be used as the verb from which 'representamen' and 'representation' were derived. John --- After sending my previous note, I thought of more examples for representing sign relations in EGs -- including EGs that link together whatever graphs are necessary to express anything. I want to emphasize that I was inspired by some of Peirce's writings, but som
Re: [PEIRCE-L] Representing sign relations in existential graphs
> On Jan 6, 2024, at 9:48 PM, John F Sowa wrote: > > Since nobody has found an EG drawn by Peirce to represent the sign relation, In the 1870’s or early eighties, CSP referred to the ammonia molecule as a symbol. More precisely, pictorially, he demonstrated the three bonds between the three hydrogen atoms and the central nitrogen. The historical precedence must be given substantial weight in discussion of existential graphs. This is a natural triadic relationship. This is also an existential graph. Cheers Jerry _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
RE: [PEIRCE-L] Representing sign relations in existential graphs
Cécile and Helmut, After sending my previous note, I thought of more examples for representing sign relations in EGs -- including EGs that link together whatever graphs are necessary to express anything. I want to emphasize that I was inspired by some of Peirce's writings, but some examples go beyond what Peirce himself had said or done. I'll start with my previous example, consider the word "cat' as a sign-object A in a relation of representation r to a concept of a cat B to determine a fuzzy animal C as the interpretation of the sign. Following is an EG that represents the sentence: "The word "cat" represents a concept CAT to determine a particular animal named Felix." Represents /|\ "cat" CAT Felix Shorter sentence: "The word 'cat' represents a cat named Felix." The next EG expresses the sentence "The word 'Felix' represents a cat Felix that is portrayed by a photograph." Represents /|\ "Felix" CAT Felix---PortrayedByPhoto The label Photo refers to a photograph of the cat. Since Peirce himself had hoped to represent moving images, one might replace the label Photo with an actual photograph of the cat, Nobody knows exactly what Peirce himself might have done, but we can say that we were inspired by Peirce to make that extension to EGs. John _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
[PEIRCE-L] Representing sign relations in existential graphs
Cécile, After reading this thread, I found a quotation by Peirce that shows how to draw an existential graph that follows Peirce's words quite closely. It's also consistent with the quotation by Noeth: "Peirce did consider the sign to be a triadic relation, but only in 1868. However, from 1873 onwards, sign, representamen, or representation were synonymously used as the names referring to the first correlate of the triadic relation of semiosis" (p. 455). The key to the analysis is the recognition that every sign has a physically perceptible mark. That mark is only a sign when somebody interprets it as a sign. Therefore, we should distinguish the physical sign-mark or sign-object from its action as a representamen or representation. Since nobody has found an EG drawn by Peirce to represent the sign relation, the best we can do is to find a quotation by Peirce that has a simple translation to an EG. The following quotation is a good candidate: “A sign is anything A, in a relation, r to something B, its object, this relation r consisting in fitness to determine something so as to produce something, C, the interpretant of the sign." (1904 MS L107:25) Since Peirce had drawn many EGs before and after 1904, he probably had a direct translation to an EG in mind. He might have drawn an example on his blackboard. Note that this quotation mentions four items: A, B, C, and a triadic relation r. As an example, let's consider the word "cat' as a sign-object A in a relation of representation r to a concept of a cat B to determine a fuzzy animal C as the interpretation of the sign. Following is an EG that represents the sentence: "The word "cat" represents a concept CAT to determine a particular animal named Felix." Represents /|\ "cat" CAT Felix Shorter sentence: The word 'cat' repreents a cat named Felix. This example follows L107;25 quite directly. I won't claim that it is exactly what Peirce would have drawn, but it follows his words closely. Since Peirce often represented EG relations by verbs, the verb 'represents' may be used as the verb from which 'representamen' and 'representation' were derived. John _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
