Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Unexplained phenomena (was Talking about...
BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;
}John, list
Perhaps I'm more cynical or sceptical or...but I have my doubts
about our daily opinions having been verified and tested.
After all - the belief that 'evil spirits' cause illness has been a
mainstay in many societies and ethnic groups for hundreds of years.
How can it be tested/ verified - and yet, it is maintained for
centuries. But they aren't true.
And we continue to believe in 'beliefs' - whether it be about our
environment, our nature as humans, the difference between 'nature'
and 'nurture' and so on. We hold to them with
tenacity/authority/emotion. That is, I don't see that our capacity to
think rationally and scientifically has increased; the majority of a
population do not do so but follow the non-scientific, non-rational
methods of Fixation of Belief. These other methods are easier to use.
So- we may, in large part, no longer believe in witches-on-the-hill,
but we do have other unverified, non-scientific and irrational
beliefs.
Edwina
On Mon 24/06/19 10:41 AM , John F Sowa s...@bestweb.net sent:
Edwina,
That's a good question:
> But how do we get around the fact that most of our beliefs are
> 'firmly held opinions' without any ability to be factually
verified.
But actually, the overwhelming number of opinions that guide our
daily lives have been tested and verified by constant repetition.
That's also true of the opinions of cows, chickens, cats, and dogs.
All of them learn that humans feed them and take care of them.
But one fateful day, some of them discover that their beliefs were
tragically mistaken.
> That is - as a species - are we doomed to live primarily within
> a fictional realm - with only the briefest diversions into the
> factual and truthful?
Peirce had a lot to say about those issues. His general conclusion
is that the overwhelming number of beliefs that guide our daily
lives
are true to the extent that they have been tested. But it's
important
to test the limits.
That's why he developed his methodeutic.
John
-
PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L
to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To
UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the
line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at
http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
Re: [PEIRCE-L] Unexplained phenomena (was Talking about...
Edwina, That's a good question: But how do we get around the fact that most of our beliefs are 'firmly held opinions' without any ability to be factually verified. But actually, the overwhelming number of opinions that guide our daily lives have been tested and verified by constant repetition. That's also true of the opinions of cows, chickens, cats, and dogs. All of them learn that humans feed them and take care of them. But one fateful day, some of them discover that their beliefs were tragically mistaken. That is - as a species - are we doomed to live primarily within a fictional realm - with only the briefest diversions into the factual and truthful? Peirce had a lot to say about those issues. His general conclusion is that the overwhelming number of beliefs that guide our daily lives are true to the extent that they have been tested. But it's important to test the limits. That's why he developed his methodeutic. John - PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Unexplained phenomena (was Talking about...
BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;
}John, list
But how do we get around the fact that most of our beliefs are
'firmly held opinions' without any ability to be factually verified.
That is - we live in, not merely a cultural and historical 'fog'
where our facts about the past and the present are instead opinions
detached from existential reality, but our metaphysical beliefs are
purely intellectual constructs and equally outside of verification.
That is - as a species - are we doomed to live primarily within a
fictional realm - with only the briefest diversions into the factual
and truthful?
Edwina
On Sun 23/06/19 11:18 PM , John F Sowa s...@bestweb.net sent:
Jerry and Joe,
Jerry
> What... makes a phenomenon valuable for science if there are
> numerous unexplained facts that can be subject to exact analysis
> but not enough time to examine them all?
Peirce's definition of truth depends on what would be discovered
if inquiry is pursued indefinitely. He even said that the time
to complete all the analysis might take longer than the survival
of the human race. Then perhaps some future beings or even
some aliens in a distant galaxy might be able to continue
the inquiry.
JR
> That is, how do you go from a strange, isolated and unexplained
> fact useful to science to “a very serious problem requiring
> respectful treatment”, which renders it useful?
Peirce's criterion for evaluating the truth of any assumption
is its ability to make testable predictions. A single observation,
such as some message obtained through telepathy, doesn't provide
sufficient information for predicting how and when other messages
might come through telepathy.
For the word 'telepathy', I found 42 examples by searching CP.
In some examples, he talks about cases where somebody dies, and
a close friend or relative instantly get a feeling that the
person had died.
That is very hard to test. Even if someone gets a strong feeling
that seems to be telepathic, it's quite possible that the
information
was an "educated guess" based on knowledge about somebody's health.
Joe
> Interesting case, however it is not clear what motion detection
> technology was deployed... Depending on type, infrared motion
> detectors can be triggered by temperature change, and/or light
> wave pattern disturbance.
I agree that there may be some physical explanation for the
phenomena. The people from the Percy Grainger Society asked the
experts at the company that made the camera and motion detector
about possible causes. But no one could suggest any likely cause.
But given that we are now reaching the end of June, I started to
think about the Fourth of July. And I noticed that the date might
be significant: Saturday, 2 July 2016 at 8:32 pm and 9:23 pm.
Kids often get fireworks for the Fourth, and I have sometimes
seen and heard some them practicing on the weekend before. The
time of 8:32 pm EDT is just after sunset, and 9:23 pm is long
enough after twilight for more complete darkness. Just behind the
Grainger house is a parking lot for a business on the next street,
and the Grainger property includes a side lot next to the house.
Either one might be a place sufficiently removed from watchful
parents.
It's possible that a loud noise might have set off the motion
detector, and it's possible that the light might have affected
the camera.
Now that would be a testable hypothesis. In New York, fireworks
are illegal without a permit. But some scientists (or kids) who
have the time, funding, and inclination to perform repeated
experiments might be able to determine what kind of fireworks
from what positions could trigger the motion detector and be
recorded by the camera.
On the other hand, the fireworks might have awakened Percy's ghost.
John
-
PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L
to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To
UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the
line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at
http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
Re: [PEIRCE-L] Unexplained phenomena (was Talking about...
Jerry and Joe, Jerry What... makes a phenomenon valuable for science if there are numerous unexplained facts that can be subject to exact analysis but not enough time to examine them all? Peirce's definition of truth depends on what would be discovered if inquiry is pursued indefinitely. He even said that the time to complete all the analysis might take longer than the survival of the human race. Then perhaps some future beings or even some aliens in a distant galaxy might be able to continue the inquiry. JR That is, how do you go from a strange, isolated and unexplained fact useful to science to “a very serious problem requiring respectful treatment”, which renders it useful? Peirce's criterion for evaluating the truth of any assumption is its ability to make testable predictions. A single observation, such as some message obtained through telepathy, doesn't provide sufficient information for predicting how and when other messages might come through telepathy. For the word 'telepathy', I found 42 examples by searching CP. In some examples, he talks about cases where somebody dies, and a close friend or relative instantly get a feeling that the person had died. That is very hard to test. Even if someone gets a strong feeling that seems to be telepathic, it's quite possible that the information was an "educated guess" based on knowledge about somebody's health. Joe Interesting case, however it is not clear what motion detection technology was deployed... Depending on type, infrared motion detectors can be triggered by temperature change, and/or light wave pattern disturbance. I agree that there may be some physical explanation for the phenomena. The people from the Percy Grainger Society asked the experts at the company that made the camera and motion detector about possible causes. But no one could suggest any likely cause. But given that we are now reaching the end of June, I started to think about the Fourth of July. And I noticed that the date might be significant: Saturday, 2 July 2016 at 8:32 pm and 9:23 pm. Kids often get fireworks for the Fourth, and I have sometimes seen and heard some them practicing on the weekend before. The time of 8:32 pm EDT is just after sunset, and 9:23 pm is long enough after twilight for more complete darkness. Just behind the Grainger house is a parking lot for a business on the next street, and the Grainger property includes a side lot next to the house. Either one might be a place sufficiently removed from watchful parents. It's possible that a loud noise might have set off the motion detector, and it's possible that the light might have affected the camera. Now that would be a testable hypothesis. In New York, fireworks are illegal without a permit. But some scientists (or kids) who have the time, funding, and inclination to perform repeated experiments might be able to determine what kind of fireworks from what positions could trigger the motion detector and be recorded by the camera. On the other hand, the fireworks might have awakened Percy's ghost. John - PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
Re: [PEIRCE-L] Unexplained phenomena (was Talking about...
Dear John, list, I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, for I see no assertion on your part. The question I have after reading your post is, What (would you or Peirce say) makes a phenomenon valuable for science if there are numerous unexplained facts that can be subject to exact analysis but not enough time to examine them all? That is, how do you go from a strange, isolated and unexplained fact useful to science to “a very serious problem *requiring* respectful treatment”, which renders it useful? For I don’t see how *only* theories that can have any value for the theorist are those from which can be deduced exact predictions capable of exact verification (presuming there exist those who refuse to acknowledge sensible limits, and there are those who do so exist). Thanks, Jerry R On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 3:34 PM John F Sowa wrote: > In CP 1.115, Peirce wrote: "At present, while the existence of > telepathy cannot be said to be established, all scientific men > are obliged by observed facts to admit that it presents at least > a very serious problem requiring respectful treatment." > > > CP 6.159. I may be asked whether my theory would be favorable or > > otherwise to telepathy. I have no decided answer to give to this. > > At first sight, it seems unfavorable. Yet there may be other modes > > of continuous connection between minds other than those of time > > and space. > > > > CP 6.559. Belief in telepathy ought to be ranked as variation > > of spiritualism. > > > > CP 7.598. Let me endeavor to explain the attitude of the physicist. > > Many people imagine that there is a certain class of facts which it > > is repugnant to the physicist to acknowledge. This is not so. If > > there were such a class of facts, the phenomena connected with > > radium would fall within it. Yet there has been no disposition to > > ignore these phenomena. But the physicist recognizes that a phenomenon > > is of no use to him unless both it and its conditions can be subjected > > to exact analysis. Moreover, the only theories that can have any value > > for him are those from which can be deduced exact predictions capable > > of exact verification. As long as a fact stands isolated and strange, > > it is next to impossible to make sure that it is a fact, and quite > > impossible to render it useful to science. > > As an example, I'll mention some unexplained phenomena about the > composer, Percy Grainger. He was born in Australia, but he lived > in White Plains, NY, from 1921 until his death in 1961. His house > is now on the National Registry of Historical Places. > > I have some friends, musicians and composers, who are members of > the Percy Grainger Society. And I have attended some concerts > and lectures at the Grainger House, which is about a dozen miles > from my home. > > One of them was studying some of Grainger's manuscripts late in the > evening. He spread them out on the dining-room table, which was the > same place where Percy would have written them. And he had an uncanny > feeling that Percy was looking over his shoulder. It seemed that he > was trying to give some friendly advice. > > A few years later, the PG Society installed motion-activated video > cameras, at the front door, back door, and some of the rooms. The > cameras rarely showed any activity. But on 2 July 2016, there were > strange occurrences at 8:32 pm and 9:23 pm: > https://percygraingeramerica.org/blog/4674266. > > Both occurred in the dining room -- streaks of light above the > table where Percy wrote his MSS and where the musicians studied > them many years after he died. Unexplained phenomena: > > 1. Stray light, by itself, would not trigger the motion detectors > of the camera. They could only be triggered by physical motion. > > 2. Light from the outside, even a laser beam, would shine on a wall > or the ceiling. But these lights were bright streaks in the > middle of the room above the dining-room table. > > 3. The motion detectors that turned on the camera also turned on > some lights. But the streaks of light were brighter than > anything in the room that reflected the camera lights. > > 4. The motion detectors of the cameras at the front and back doors > were not triggered and no other videos were made that evening. > > 5. The experts at the company that made the cameras could not > explain what turned on the camera or what caused the streaks > of light that were recorded by the camera. > > As Peirce wrote in CP 7.598, "As long as a fact stands isolated and > strange, it is next to impossible to make sure that it is a fact, > and quite impossible to render it useful to science." > > John > - PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the
[PEIRCE-L] Unexplained phenomena (was Talking about...
In CP 1.115, Peirce wrote: "At present, while the existence of telepathy cannot be said to be established, all scientific men are obliged by observed facts to admit that it presents at least a very serious problem requiring respectful treatment." CP 6.159. I may be asked whether my theory would be favorable or otherwise to telepathy. I have no decided answer to give to this. At first sight, it seems unfavorable. Yet there may be other modes of continuous connection between minds other than those of time and space. CP 6.559. Belief in telepathy ought to be ranked as variation of spiritualism. CP 7.598. Let me endeavor to explain the attitude of the physicist. Many people imagine that there is a certain class of facts which it is repugnant to the physicist to acknowledge. This is not so. If there were such a class of facts, the phenomena connected with radium would fall within it. Yet there has been no disposition to ignore these phenomena. But the physicist recognizes that a phenomenon is of no use to him unless both it and its conditions can be subjected to exact analysis. Moreover, the only theories that can have any value for him are those from which can be deduced exact predictions capable of exact verification. As long as a fact stands isolated and strange, it is next to impossible to make sure that it is a fact, and quite impossible to render it useful to science. As an example, I'll mention some unexplained phenomena about the composer, Percy Grainger. He was born in Australia, but he lived in White Plains, NY, from 1921 until his death in 1961. His house is now on the National Registry of Historical Places. I have some friends, musicians and composers, who are members of the Percy Grainger Society. And I have attended some concerts and lectures at the Grainger House, which is about a dozen miles from my home. One of them was studying some of Grainger's manuscripts late in the evening. He spread them out on the dining-room table, which was the same place where Percy would have written them. And he had an uncanny feeling that Percy was looking over his shoulder. It seemed that he was trying to give some friendly advice. A few years later, the PG Society installed motion-activated video cameras, at the front door, back door, and some of the rooms. The cameras rarely showed any activity. But on 2 July 2016, there were strange occurrences at 8:32 pm and 9:23 pm: https://percygraingeramerica.org/blog/4674266. Both occurred in the dining room -- streaks of light above the table where Percy wrote his MSS and where the musicians studied them many years after he died. Unexplained phenomena: 1. Stray light, by itself, would not trigger the motion detectors of the camera. They could only be triggered by physical motion. 2. Light from the outside, even a laser beam, would shine on a wall or the ceiling. But these lights were bright streaks in the middle of the room above the dining-room table. 3. The motion detectors that turned on the camera also turned on some lights. But the streaks of light were brighter than anything in the room that reflected the camera lights. 4. The motion detectors of the cameras at the front and back doors were not triggered and no other videos were made that evening. 5. The experts at the company that made the cameras could not explain what turned on the camera or what caused the streaks of light that were recorded by the camera. As Peirce wrote in CP 7.598, "As long as a fact stands isolated and strange, it is next to impossible to make sure that it is a fact, and quite impossible to render it useful to science." John - PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
