Re: qu re lit re theory of socialist international economics
Paul, thanks, this is a very interesting case which helps. Concerning transfers between the republics of former Yugoslavia, how do those compare with transfers from richer to poorer provinces in Canada? Were they of comparable magnitude (in relative terms) or significantly more? Gernot Kohler You wrote: "This is not exactly a response to your question, though I think it is related. My experience comes from observation of Yugoslavia among the 6 republics and 2 autonomous provinces in more happier times. . " snip
Re: Re: Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter
Max Sawicky wrote: BDL's new piece on Nader is civil enough, but it got me to thinking about a point that has come up before -- the business of comparing consumer benefits to worker losses in trade debates. Henwood brought this up (once) and provoked in me the realization that the logic of this exercise militates against all that we customarily understand as left politics, in the broadest sense. If consumer benefits (narrowly defined) are the highest priority, then we have to oppose any constraints on production cost minimization, in terms of minimum wages, industrial action, trade unionism, environmental regulation, etc. This is a problem for would-be progressive free traders, at the very least. Now I'm wondering how well it can be put in analytical terms. To elevate consumer well-being above working-class income is to say that, as an historical matter, cost reductions in consumer goods are the greater contributor to general well-being than increases in income (whether from labor or from government programs) and output. Max, you been studying at the Nathan Newman School of False Binaries? You're either for the working class or for open trade? I was criticizing EPI's typical trade models, which seems to assume no gains from trade. You simply take a deficit figure, divide it by some cost per job, and assume that that equals the number of jobs lost to imports. Gains from trade could be - I'm using the conditional because this sort of thing is hard to prove definitively - very broadly distributed, while the losses could be very narrowly distributed. The fact that EPI-style trade politics isn't all that popular is a clue that that may be the case. I sometimes get the feeling that EPI's modal worker is a guy who works in a car plant. But there are more than 10 times as many U.S. workers in retail as in transportation equipment (and, about 3/4 of autoworkers are male, whereas about half of retail workers are female). The politics of minimum wages, unionization, environmental regulation, etc. are all much clearer: labor broadly benefits and capital broadly loses from these. With trade, the class incidence is a lot murkier, but EPI-ers never face this squarel. And the "working class" includes Mexicans, who might feel a little differently about import restriction than you do. Doug
Re: Re: qu re lit re theory of socialist international economics
Gernot, I don't have comparable figures available so I can't give you a quantitative response to your question. However, during the last decade or so (before the breakup) since the decentralization of economic authority, the tax for the "Fund for the Faster Development of the Lesser Developed Republics and Autonomous Provinces" (which I think was the full name of the transfer fund) was the only tax paid by the republics to the central government. (The other main source of income for the federal government was tariffs.) The purpose of the transfer was to finance capital investment (unlike Canada's which is to finance the provision of comparable levels of public services) though, in fact, the federal Yugo government had no control over how these funds were used. This was one of the complaints of Slovenia and Croatia that much of the money was used for conspicuous public consumption (with a nationalist purpose) rather than capital investment. This is where the contradiction in trade came in. Without some sort of national plan for trade (managed trade) between the republics, there were no incentives/indicators of where and what kind of investment should take place and the lesser developed regions simply couldn't absorb the capital available to them in economically viable industries. This was independent of the labour quality problems in these regions. What I am suggesting, I guess, is that any theory of international trade/finance with regards to a socialist bloc would have to involve international planning of managed trade -- much as do the multinational corps do now -- though on the basis of democratic negotiations between the countries. A model for that might be the Canada-US Autopact. Just a few ideas. Paul Paul Phillips, Economics, University of Manitoba On 14 Aug 00, at 9:20, g kohler wrote: Paul, thanks, this is a very interesting case which helps. Concerning transfers between the republics of former Yugoslavia, how do those compare with transfers from richer to poorer provinces in Canada? Were they of comparable magnitude (in relative terms) or significantly more? Gernot Kohler
RE: Re: Re: Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter
DH . . . Max, you been studying at the Nathan Newman School of False Binaries? You're either for the working class or for open trade? I was trying to say that binaries are the wrong way around this -- that some quantification is necessary to draw any conclusions. Words have failed me. Again. DH: I was criticizing EPI's typical trade models, which seems to assume no gains from trade. . . . I was referring to your resort to consumer well-being, on one occasion. We've been thru the other stuff so I will not rehash. DH . . . I sometimes get the feeling that EPI's modal worker is a guy who works in a car plant. . . . Nobody does more on non-standard work arrangements than we do. Ditto the minimum wage. So while your feeling is understandable, it is not well-founded. At the same time, at least in my own view, the wage of the 'guy in the auto plant' is crucial in putting upward pressure on labor standards in general. . . . And the "working class" includes Mexicans, who might feel a little differently about import restriction than you do. Doug We've been working w/scholars and activists in Mexico from the very beginning of the NAFTA stuff. We're pretty familiar with how they feel. Incidentally, we're going to be putting out a book on Mexico that is a counterpart of our State of Working America (the latter due out on Labor Day). mbs
Re: RE:Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter
We've been working w/scholars and activists in Mexico from the very beginning of the NAFTA stuff. We're pretty familiar with how they feel. Incidentally, we're going to be putting out a book on Mexico that is a counterpart of our State of Working America (the latter due out on Labor Day). mbs Incidentally, I heard Nader being interviewed on shock-jock Don Imus's syndicated radio show. Imus has declared himself in favor of Nader, as has his brother Fred Imus, a New Mexico rancher and 'good old boy'. Nader is actually a very witty guy and quick on the uptake. When asked whether his campaign would hurt Gore's chances, he quoted the Gore campaign as stating "we are not worried about Nader." This led Nader to quip if they're not worried, then nobody else should be worried. Of course he added that he is receiving widespread support in Michigan, Connecticut and California. It is a major drag that he and Buchanan will be excluded from the debates. Can you imagine anybody sitting through a Gore-Bush debate? Louis Proyect The Marxism mailing-list: http://www.marxmail.org
Trade (was Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter)
Henwood, Perelman, DeLong and Sawicky are hovering around the ontological argument for the expansion of trade, "as if the power of compelling or inducing men to labour twice as much at the mills of Gaza for the enjoyment of the Philistines, were proof of any thing but a tyranny or an ignorance twice as powerful. (anon, 1821)" Contra Perelman and DeLong, the assumption is not neoclassical but is a throwback to classical political economy -- or perhaps an imperfectly eradicated residue of the latter that has become the defining excrescence on the former. The issue at stake is trade -- not simply foreign trade -- and the distracting binary is "foreign trade bad"/"domestic trade good". Doug Henwood wrote, Gains from trade could be - I'm using the conditional because this sort of thing is hard to prove definitively - very broadly distributed, while the losses could be very narrowly distributed. The fact that EPI-style trade politics isn't all that popular is a clue that that may be the case. Michael Perelman wrote, Not long after Jevons et al. formulated neoclassical economics, political commentators began to tell workers that they should evaluate their situation in terms of rising levels of consumption rather than their working conditions. Brad DeLong Nah. It's time for pas d'enemie sur la gauche.The neoclassical assumption that your welfare is primarily your welfare as a consumer (plus a *private* disutility of work term) automatically rules out any concern for the producer-side benefits of living in a vibrant production-based community rather than being an anomic seller of one's labor-power. Max Sawicky wrote, To elevate consumer well-being above working-class income is to say that, as an historical matter, cost reductions in consumer goods are the greater contributor to general well-being than increases in income (whether from labor or from government programs) and output. Temps Walker Sandwichman and Deconsultant
RE: Trade (was Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter)
. . . Contra Perelman and DeLong, the assumption is not neoclassical but is a throwback to classical political economy -- or perhaps an imperfectly eradicated residue of the latter that has become the defining excrescence on the former. The issue at stake is trade -- not simply foreign trade -- and the distracting binary is "foreign trade bad"/"domestic trade good". and . . . ? this sandwich needs some lunch meat. mbs Critique Gastronomique
Re: Trade (was Nader Demands Banning,Pulping of Harry Potter)
I am not usually included as part of the four horsemen of the apocolypse, but let me see if the good sandwichman and myself are on the same page. In the time of classical political economy, the luminaries of the day despaired because the working-class did not show any indication that they might be seduced to work harder for more material goods. That was a common theme, for example, in Malthus. Timework Web wrote: Henwood, Perelman, DeLong and Sawicky are hovering around the ontological argument for the expansion of trade, "as if the power of compelling or inducing men to labour twice as much at the mills of Gaza for the enjoyment of the Philistines, were proof of any thing but a tyranny or an ignorance twice as powerful. (anon, 1821)" Contra Perelman and DeLong, the assumption is not neoclassical but is a throwback to classical political economy -- or perhaps an imperfectly eradicated residue of the latter that has become the defining excrescence on the former. The issue at stake is trade -- not simply foreign trade -- and the distracting binary is "foreign trade bad"/"domestic trade good". Doug Henwood wrote, Gains from trade could be - I'm using the conditional because this sort of thing is hard to prove definitively - very broadly distributed, while the losses could be very narrowly distributed. The fact that EPI-style trade politics isn't all that popular is a clue that that may be the case. Michael Perelman wrote, Not long after Jevons et al. formulated neoclassical economics, political commentators began to tell workers that they should evaluate their situation in terms of rising levels of consumption rather than their working conditions. Brad DeLong Nah. It's time for pas d'enemie sur la gauche.The neoclassical assumption that your welfare is primarily your welfare as a consumer (plus a *private* disutility of work term) automatically rules out any concern for the producer-side benefits of living in a vibrant production-based community rather than being an anomic seller of one's labor-power. Max Sawicky wrote, To elevate consumer well-being above working-class income is to say that, as an historical matter, cost reductions in consumer goods are the greater contributor to general well-being than increases in income (whether from labor or from government programs) and output. Temps Walker Sandwichman and Deconsultant -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: now you know
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/12/00 11:08AM -clip- For Holmes, most important factors were always (as he wrote in Schenk) "proximity and degree." CB: This is pragmatism. _ So contrary to above, Holmes dissented in Abrams case, calling A "unknown man" and referring to his (in concert with several other Russian immigrants) leaflet as "silly." Leaflet, issued near end of WW1 and targeted to Russian emigre workers), criticized Wilson for using US troops in support opponents of Bolshevik Revolution and suggested possible need for general strike. Holmes dissent in Gitlow is consistent with "proximity and degree" position. H held that G pamphlet "Left-Wing Manifesto" might well be suppressed if it called for immediate uprising against government. Plus, Gitlow's arrest for violating 1902 New York law on criminal anarchy occurred post WW1, more likely to be "ordinary" circumstances in Holmes mind (guess repressive state apparatus never dismantled following war wasn't "extraordinary"). CB: Sure. When it counts, free speech is suspended. When it might be effective it can be suspended. When it isn't likely to be effective, speak away ! This is a pragmatic evisceration of free speech, with the added twofacedness of trying to make it seem like there is "freedom of speech" by the sham of "allowing" it when it won't be effective in changing the system. ___ In Whitney (Anita Whitney was member of Communist Labor Party) case, Holmes agreed with Brandeis concurring opinion about necessity of "free speech." Yet, both he and B voted with majority - on technical grounds - to sustain her conviction under California criminal conspiracy law. __ CB: Exactly. I had said that Whitney ( not Gitlow) still went to jail. Brandeis wrote a paen ( spelling) to free speech and then voted to send Whitney to jail, my con law prof said on this one. Holmes statement in Schenk that First Amendment does not protect someone "falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater and causing a panic" is excellent example of why all analogies are suspect *and* some more so than others. Michael Hoover
Wage setting (was 'Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter')
Max, what theory/empirical evidence lays behind your statement: the wage of the 'guy in the auto plant' is crucial in putting upward pressure on labor standards in general. I've just started to do research on the spillover (or lack of spillover) of wage increases (decreases) from one 'key' industry to other 'nonkey' industries and on the existence (or not) of an economy-wide "standard" for wage increases. I've yet to reach any conclusions. So, any thoughts on this (mechanism of spillover, how 'standard' set, etc) would be appreciated. Eric Eric Nilsson Economics California State University, San Bernardino San Bernardino, CA 91711 [EMAIL PROTECTED] winmail.dat
RE: Wage setting (was 'Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter')
Evidence we don't need no stinkin evidence . . . On the theory side, the simple idea that if a person with given skills can suitably perform the duties of an auto worker or sandwich man, there is some pressure on employers to offer more similar wages than otherwise (lower for the auto maker, higher for the sandwich mogul). The greater the sphere of high-labor standards jobs, the more pressure on other sectors to conform. An injury to one is an injury to all, in the vernacular. If this is wrong, I've been wasting a lot of time. In public economics, there is the noteworthy literature on the 'cost disease' in public services launched by Baumol -- increases in productivity and wages force lower productivity industries to bid up their wages in order to secure labor. More specifically, it obliges the public sector to raise spending to maintain a given output of services. Baumol also applied this to the arts. For more than that, you'll have to consult a real labor economist, which I am not. cheers, mbs Max, what theory/empirical evidence lays behind your statement: the wage of the 'guy in the auto plant' is crucial in putting upward pressure on labor standards in general. Ive just started to do research on the spillover (or lack of spillover) of wage increases (decreases) from one key industry to other nonkey industries and on the existence (or not) of an economy-wide standard for wage increases. Ive yet to reach any conclusions. So, any thoughts on this (mechanism of spillover, how standard set, etc) would be appreciated. Eric Eric Nilsson Economics California State University, San Bernardino San Bernardino, CA 91711 [EMAIL PROTECTED] winmail.dat
Re: RE: Wage setting (was 'Nader Demands Banning,Pulping of Harry Potter')
Max Sawicky wrote: Evidence we don't need no stinkin evidence . . . On the theory side, the simple idea that if a person with given skills can suitably perform the duties of an auto worker or sandwich man, there is some pressure on employers to offer more similar wages than otherwise (lower for the auto maker, higher for the sandwich mogul). Given any collection of quantities (a, b, c, d . . .) it is a tautology that one can equate any one of them with unity, then express each quantity in terms of the selected one. Hence one could, for example, take the average wage of bank window clerks as unity and express every other wage as some multiple of that wage. Is there any theoretical *or* empirical reason to believe some one wage should be set at unity in that all others vary as it does, but it is not affected by others? My own guess would be that *if* there is a key wage it is the wage for non-labor (public aid, disability, unemployment, etc.). I have no evidence for this. Mere speculation. Wages paid illegals might fall in the same category. Carrol
Re: RE: Re: Re: Nader Demands Banning, Pulping ofHarry Potter
Max Sawicky wrote: Nobody does more on non-standard work arrangements than we do. Ditto the minimum wage. Yes, you do. EPI does lots of great stuff, and I'm a big fan of all you folks. Maybe your latest hire, Heather Boushey - who starts today, right? - will prod a bit of a rethink of the trade stuff. Because despite all your work on "nonstandard" arrangements, the trade stuff always seems to revert to the guy-in-the-auto-plant model. Service sector workers, who are by far a majority of the U.S. working class, may well gain from trade. I don't see any evidence that EPI's trade work ever considers this as a possibility. Doug
RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Nader Demands Banning, Pulping ofHarry Potter
. . . Service sector workers, who are by far a majority of the U.S. working class, may well gain from trade. I don't see any evidence that EPI's trade work ever considers this as a possibility. Doug What gain would that be? Average hourly wage, service sector (not incl. 'protective' svcs.) $1999 19731979 1989 19951999 male 10.69 10.02 8.63 8.19 8.53 female7.838.08 7.45 7.39 7.70 From State of Working America, 2000-2001 (forthcoming) I suppose this could have been worse without trade, even tho wages were higher when there was less trade. mbs
Re: Trade (was pulp harry potter)
Michael Perelman wrote, "I am not usually included as part of the four horsemen of the apocolypse . . . and Max Sawicky wrote, ". . . this sandwich needs some lunch meat." The (horse) meat I have in mind is ground out pretty explicitly in Marx's "Afterword to the Second German Edition" of volume one of _Capital_. To compress an already schematic two-page chronology, Marx called Ricardo the last great representative of Political Economy, he then mentioned the period 1820-1830 as notable for scientific activity in the domain of P.E. but also a time of vulgarization ["the polemic is for the most part scattered through articles in reviews, occasional literature and pamphlets"]. Marx claimed the year 1830 marked a turning point after which it was "no longer a question, whether this theorem or that was true, but whether it was useful to capital or harmful, expedient or inexpedient, politically dangerous or not." Marx wraps up his nutshell history of post-Ricardian P.E. with a backhanded compliment to J.S. Mill as the best representative of a "shallow syncretism". The anonymous quote from an 1821 pamphlet happens to fall into Marx's "notable for scientific activity" period, 1820-1830. Elsewhere, Marx marveled at the "fine statement" in the 1821 pamphlet that "WEALTH IS DISPOSABLE TIME AND NOTHING MORE." Engels called the pamphlet "the most advanced outpost of a whole group of writings of the 1820s, which turned the Ricardian theory of value and surplus-value against capitalist production in the interest of the proletariat, and fought the bourgeoisie with its own weapons" and credits the author of the pamphlet for discovering (although not being aware of the discovery) the basis for the production of surplus-value in what Marx would latter distinguish as *labour power*, (rather than simply labour). It seems to me that the central polemic these days bases itself on something akin to Mill's "shallow syncretism". In such a contest, the apologists for capital have recourse, whenever they deem it expedient, to the archive of debate tactics compiled by the hired prizefighters of vulgar Political Economy. The left finds itself standing on the "simple mound" of J.S. Mill, which now instead of looking like a hill surrounded by "the imbecile flatness of the present bourgeousie" appears an island of scientific intent swamped by a rising tide of sophism and sycophancy. Temps Walker Sandwichman and Deconsultant
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Nader Demands Banning,Pulping ofHarry Potter
Max Sawicky wrote: Average hourly wage, service sector (not incl. 'protective' svcs.) $1999 19731979 1989 19951999 male 10.69 10.02 8.63 8.19 8.53 female7.838.08 7.45 7.39 7.70 From State of Working America, 2000-2001 (forthcoming) I suppose this could have been worse without trade, even tho wages were higher when there was less trade. Wages have risen over the last 5 years with trade - the average hourly service sector real wage is up 8% since its trough in late 1994. Wages fell in earlier years with trade. Wages have risen in countries more open to trade than the U.S. Where's your cause-effect? Doug
RE: Re: RE: Wage setting (was 'Nader Demands Banning,Pulping of Harry Potter')
CC: . . . Given any collection of quantities (a, b, c, d . . .) it is a tautology that one can equate any one of them with unity, then express each quantity in terms of the selected one. Hence one could, for example, take the average wage of bank window clerks as unity and express every other wage as some multiple of that wage. Is there any theoretical *or* empirical reason to believe some one wage should be set at unity in that all others vary as it does, but it is not affected by others? [mbs] my point does not depend on designating any kind of index wage that obliges all others to follow it. It is simply that for workers in the same labor market, there is pressure for wages to converge to some degree, so that if there are increases in wages above the median, that should pull up lower wages. If the sandwichman makes five bucks and the autoworker fifteen, you could normalize the former at one, making the latter three. It would still follow, by my hypothesis, that a rise for the autoworker has some positive impact on the sandwichman. I take the point that an increase anywhere ought to help the entire wage distribution, if we are talking about money, so in this sense the auto worker is no more key than the sandwichman. Some dimensions of labor standards might be different -- all or nothing benefits, such as safety rules. My own guess would be that *if* there is a key wage it is the wage for non-labor (public aid, disability, unemployment, etc.). I have no evidence for this. Mere speculation. Wages paid illegals might fall in the same category. Carrol [mbs] Insofar as this is a different labor market, there is less impact on other markets. It is less easy to substitute across groups. There is a lot of evidence that public benefits affect low-wage labor markets, including Cloward Piven's Regulating the Poor. Suppose we turned the question around. What trade policy would best serve service sector workers -- one that improved the (higher) wages of manufacturing jobs (for which service sector workers were qualified) and made these jobs more plentiful, or one that reduced the price of consumption goods and created more jobs in sectors with below-average wages. mbs
RE: Nader Demands ...
Re exchange between Doug and Max: Doug: ". . . Service sector workers, who are by far a majority of the U.S. working class, may well gain from trade." Max: "What gain would that be?" The single most important determinant of real wages of service workers is likely the minimum wage. If international trade contributes to lower US prices (but don't reduce minimum wage or service wages), then service workers might benefit from trade as far as consumption goes. But, IF the minimum wage is effected by international trade in some way then maybe service workers are not necessarily better off when trade increases. Whether by coincidence or not, the correlation over 1960 to 1999 between the real value of the minimum wage and the ratio of trade deficit divided by GDP is 0.6. (Of course, the real value of min wage generally fell after 1970 and the trade deficit started to get worse a bit later so the correlation is not a surprise). Why might worsening trade deficit lead to lower real minimum wage? Possibly, trade problems pushes min wage increases off the political agenda. (Assuming Congress/Press/President can focus on only one economic issue at the same time). Possibly, trade deficit contributes to nationalist/pro-capitalist ideology and this tends to lead public to look more at wages as a cost to business and to possibly think that increased min wages might reduce competitive positions of US firms. These things might make an increase in the minimum wage less politically practical. Further, as management in certain 'trade-impacted' industries becomes more aggressive in keeping wages down for trade reasons, this aggression might spillover to affect aggressiveness in other (service) industries. Eric Eric Nilsson Economics California State University, San Bernardino San Bernardino, CA 91711 [EMAIL PROTECTED] winmail.dat
Wage Setting
RE My own guess would be that *if* there is a key wage it is the wage for non-labor (public aid, disability, unemployment, etc.). The "efficiency-wage" and cost-of-job loss literature implies/says this: increase in the social (or citizen) wage promotes increases in wages paid to employees. This mechanism, I think, does play a part for, at the least, low paid workers. RE I take the point that an increase anywhere ought to help the entire wage distribution, if we are talking about money, so in this sense the auto worker is no more key than the sandwichman. Insofar as this is a different labor market, there is less impact on other markets. It is less easy to substitute across groups. The above is, dare I say it, the neoclassical theory of wage spillover. This doesn't mean that is it wrong but the focus on a symmetrical relationship between wage spillover in different industries and of substitution between workers in different markets tends to be too narrow. Others, more mainstream labor economists, have focused on "pattern bargaining" within the union sector (that that this is very large now) as being the cause of wage spillovers within the union sector. Some 1940s-1960s institutionalists believed that the spillover wage across the whole economy and that it was asymmetrical - the wages within auto, steel, etc industries were determined by conditions within these industries (and macro factors) and other industries generally followed this wage increase by ignoring their own industry conditions. I think there might be some truth to this institutionalist perspective up until the mid-1970s. By the mid-1970s it is likely that this pattern of wage setting broke down. Importantly, real wages in the construction industry were the first to fall starting in the early 1970s. Soon afterwards real wages in many retail industries started to fall also along with textile/clothing wages. Auto and steel wages generally kept rising to late 1970s or early 1980s but then fell after that.(That is, the traditional key sector didn't lead the way down). Be that as it may, my own tentative hypothesis is that after the 1970s wage spillover mechanisms weakened as individual industry forces, more aggressive capitalists in general, and a change in ideology (anti-worker) tended to play a larger part in determining industry wages. And, of course, a decline in the real minimum wage. But, I've just started thinking about all of this. Eric Eric Nilsson Economics California State University, San Bernardino San Bernardino, CA 91711 [EMAIL PROTECTED] winmail.dat
So what's going to be in the new _State of Working America_?
So what's going to be in the new _State of Working America_?
RE: Wage Setting
I take the point that an increase anywhere ought to help the entire wage distribution, if we are talking about money, so in this sense the auto worker is no more key than the sandwichman. . . . The above is, dare I say it, the neoclassical theory of wage spillover. This doesnt mean that is it wrong but the focus on a symmetrical relationship between wage spillover in different industries and of substitution between workers in different markets tends to be too narrow. . . . Well I'm, dare I say it, a neo-classical economist of sorts, but I don't doubt it is too narrow. It explains how one result affects a subsequent outcome, not where the initial effect comes from. I didn't mean to imply symmetry, incidentally; only two-way effects. On the other hand, if somebody tried to say wage cuts resulted from an attack on the w.c. by Capital, one would have to ask why then, and why that much? mbs winmail.dat
RE: So what's going to be in the new _State of Working America_?
So what's going to be in the new _State of Working America_? A few tidbits . . . Release date is 9/3. documents extent and nature of recent wage growth, productivity, and inequality trends discusses the "new economy" (sic) benefits of recent high employment mbs
RE: Wage Setting
Max wrote: On the other hand, if somebody tried to say wage cuts resulted from an attack on the w.c. by Capital, one would have to ask why then, and why that much? PART of the real wage decline was due to attacks by capital. How much, I don't know. As regards the issue of "when and how much" I'm still working on this. At this point I'll merely make a number of unsupported claims: 1) before 1970s the wage increases of auto and steel served as a 'focal point' for wage setting in many other industries in the US. Firms outside the auto and steel industry didn't know for sure their own productivity, power over workers, and so on but they figured they couldn't go wrong by just copying what when on in auto and steel. 2) The problems of the 1970s, blamed in OPEC, tended to promote more nationalist types of thinking. "Our" firms had to be saved from "them." In this view, wage increases could harm "our" firms and so were not to be desired. This set the stage for the following-- 3) Certain firms and industries in the 1970s and 1980s did have real problems. These firms became much more aggressive in fighting for lower real wages. They used techniques/approaches to achieve lower real wages that would not have been accepted in, say, the 1960s. 4) A shift occurred (vagueness here) so that the new focal point for wage setting because the outcomes of these new aggressive real-wage-reducing firms. Yes this might be somewhat incoherent but I'm making this stuff up now (coherence and weird econometics will follow in the months ahead). Eric Eric Nilsson Economics California State University, San Bernardino San Bernardino, CA 91711 [EMAIL PROTECTED] winmail.dat
RE: Wage setting
mbs: Suppose we turned the question around. What trade policy would best serve service sector workers -- one that improved the (higher) wages of manufacturing jobs (for which service sector workers were qualified) and made these jobs more plentiful, or one that reduced the price of consumption goods and created more jobs in sectors with below-average wages. = Um, given the propensity of capitalists to displace manufacturing jobs with technology, conjoined with the fact that the energy/material inputs per unit of tool Z or good X must fall by at least a factor of ten over the next 60 years or so just in order to maintain the current level of energy use, wouldn't the trade question you pose be ancillary to the larger issue of more equitable trade flows of knowledge and resource conserving production methods? [I'll leave aside the "increase" in education levels necessary for various populations to achieve the knowledge base for such progress in production methods] Wouldn't that in turn take some of the entirely justifiable pressures of migration in search of adequate wages to buy consumption goods off the North, which is feeding the current wave of xenophobia? I say this not to reinforce a Northern bias, but rather that raising living standards in the South [which should be the major project of the 21st century] would call for a major, rapid diffusion of the best knowledge our species has, entailing a complete sea change in our views of property given the current price structure for hi-tech knowledge and artifacts. Ian
Re: Trade (was pulp harry potter)
Is this from a Slam Poetry list ? CB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/14/00 01:39PM Michael Perelman wrote, "I am not usually included as part of the four horsemen of the apocolypse . . . and Max Sawicky wrote, ". . . this sandwich needs some lunch meat." The (horse) meat I have in mind is ground out pretty explicitly in Marx's "Afterword to the Second German Edition" of volume one of _Capital_. To compress an already schematic two-page chronology, Marx called Ricardo the last great representative of Political Economy, he then mentioned the period 1820-1830 as notable for scientific activity in the domain of P.E. but also a time of vulgarization ["the polemic is for the most part scattered through articles in reviews, occasional literature and pamphlets"]. Marx claimed the year 1830 marked a turning point after which it was "no longer a question, whether this theorem or that was true, but whether it was useful to capital or harmful, expedient or inexpedient, politically dangerous or not." Marx wraps up his nutshell history of post-Ricardian P.E. with a backhanded compliment to J.S. Mill as the best representative of a "shallow syncretism". The anonymous quote from an 1821 pamphlet happens to fall into Marx's "notable for scientific activity" period, 1820-1830. Elsewhere, Marx marveled at the "fine statement" in the 1821 pamphlet that "WEALTH IS DISPOSABLE TIME AND NOTHING MORE." Engels called the pamphlet "the most advanced outpost of a whole group of writings of the 1820s, which turned the Ricardian theory of value and surplus-value against capitalist production in the interest of the proletariat, and fought the bourgeoisie with its own weapons" and credits the author of the pamphlet for discovering (although not being aware of the discovery) the basis for the production of surplus-value in what Marx would latter distinguish as *labour power*, (rather than simply labour). It seems to me that the central polemic these days bases itself on something akin to Mill's "shallow syncretism". In such a contest, the apologists for capital have recourse, whenever they deem it expedient, to the archive of debate tactics compiled by the hired prizefighters of vulgar Political Economy. The left finds itself standing on the "simple mound" of J.S. Mill, which now instead of looking like a hill surrounded by "the imbecile flatness of the present bourgeousie" appears an island of scientific intent swamped by a rising tide of sophism and sycophancy. Temps Walker Sandwichman and Deconsultant
[fla-left] [immigrant rights] S. Florida health clinics accused of immigrant bias (fwd)
forwarded by Michael Hoover Published Sunday, August 13, 2000, in the Miami Herald Health clinics accused of immigrant bias Miami-Dade trust comes under fire BY ANDRES VIGLUCCI [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miami-Dade's vast system of public health care is coming under increasing fire for charging high fees to poor undocumented immigrants, a practice that critics say is discriminatory and effectively denies treatment to some of the county's neediest residents. Under long-established but little-noticed procedures, foreign-born patients who cannot produce immigration papers have been denied the reduced rates given to other poor county residents at Jackson Memorial Hospital and a far-flung network of primary care clinics, both run by the Miami-Dade Public Health Trust. Even indigent immigrants who would otherwise qualify for free care must pay fees or cash deposits before they can see a doctor in non-emergencies, and are subsequently billed at the system's highest rates, advocates for immigrants and the poor say. The consequences: Some immigrants who cannot afford the cost let medical conditions go untreated until they need expensive emergency care. And contagious diseases can pose a public health threat. Complaints over the practice have become increasingly common in the last two years as the trust has taken over operation of several formerly state-run clinics in immigrant-heavy neighborhoods. When her 9-year-old daughter was diagnosed with leukemia in 1995, Nicaraguan immigrant Mar=EDa Morales spent countless hours at Jackson, missing work, while she persuaded officials to reduce a $75 clinic fee every time doctors needed to see the girl. A DEPOSIT A bone-marrow transplant the girl needed was put off until Morales could pay a deposit. Morales never tallied the bills she later received for two years of treatment, saying she could not pay them. ``The doctors are very good. I have no complaints about them or the clinic,'' said Morales, who was here illegally at the time, but has recently obtained U.S. residency. ``But to get her seen, I had to go through a thousand difficulties for two years. It's unfair.'' LAWSUIT PLANNED Lawyers at Florida Legal Services and the American Civil Liberties Union's Florida chapter are preparing to file a civil-rights complaint with the U.S. Department of Justice, contending that it is illegal for the trust to provide free or discounted care to one group of county residents while denying the same benefit to another -- even if they are undocumented. The advocates say the issue of access to public health care is critical in a county where about 500,000 people, many of them immigrants, have no medical insurance. They say the undocumented deserve equal treatment for several reasons: First, illegal immigrants who live and work here pay sales taxes that support the trust's operations. Second, getting people into preventive care early saves money in the long run by reducing the need for expensive emergency care, which the county must by law provide to all who require it. HEALTH THREAT Also, people with contagious or infectious diseases who go untreated pose a threat to public health. ``To deny them primary care or to throw up these barriers hurts their health and is a huge risk to public health,'' said legal services attorney Miriam Harmatz. ``The policy excludes undocumented immigrants who are living here, working here, paying taxes, and when they get sick, are classified as non-county residents and charged the highest fee.'' Trust officials insist that no one is denied care because of inability to pay or lack of immigration status. They say they do not want to discourage the poor and sick from seeking care. ``We need people to come and get preventive care. We want them to show up at primary care centers,'' said trust spokeswoman Conchita Ruiz-Topinka. ``We don't want them to show up in the emergency room if it can be avoided.'' REIMBURSEMENT The Miami-Dade County attorney's office, while conceding that no law requires trust officials to ask for immigration documents, contends that the policy is not discriminatory because the papers are used only to check whether patients qualify for government reimbursement. But trust officials acknowledge that its written policy can be read to require immigration documentation to determine eligibility for discounted fees. Advocates say that has been the common practice. ``The policy was not intended to happen that way, but it might have,'' said Maria Dominguez, a specialist on immigration law and a member of the trust's board of directors who has been appointed to review the policy. ``What we need to do is fine-tune the policy.'' But advocates who have been pressing the trust to rescind the practice for months say officials have yet to formally rewrite the policy. Interviews with social workers, neighborhood
Re: Wage Setting
Also, in the earlier period unions were stronger. Each major contract was a signal to other unions, creating a spillover across sectors. Eric Nilsson wrote: I think there might be some truth to this institutionalist perspective up until the mid-1970s. By the mid-1970s it is likely that this pattern of wage setting broke down. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: RE: Wage setting
You forget I'm resting here on my molehill (Mill-hill?), overlooking the plains of the imbecile flatness of the present bourgeousie, reveling in my ascendency over the rising tide of sophism and syncophancy (present company excluded), content in my shallow syncretic scrivening. I'm counting beans. If I get time, some day I'll write a pamphlet. mbs = Um, given the propensity of capitalists to displace manufacturing jobs with technology, conjoined with the fact that the energy/material inputs per unit of tool Z or good X must fall by at least a factor of ten over the next 60 years or so just in order to maintain the current level of energy use, wouldn't the trade question you pose be ancillary to the larger issue of more equitable trade flows of knowledge and resource conserving production methods? [I'll leave aside the "increase" in education levels necessary for various populations to achieve the knowledge base for such progress in production methods] Wouldn't that in turn take some of the entirely justifiable pressures of migration in search of adequate wages to buy consumption goods off the North, which is feeding the current wave of xenophobia? I say this not to reinforce a Northern bias, but rather that raising living standards in the South [which should be the major project of the 21st century] would call for a major, rapid diffusion of the best knowledge our species has, entailing a complete sea change in our views of property given the current price structure for hi-tech knowledge and artifacts. Ian
RE: RE: Wage setting
Slightly more seriously . . . Ian said: Um, given the propensity of capitalists to displace manufacturing jobs with technology, conjoined with the fact that the energy/material inputs per unit of tool Z or good X must fall by at least a factor of ten over the next 60 years or so just in order to maintain the current level of energy use, wouldn't the trade question you pose be ancillary to the larger issue of more equitable trade flows of knowledge and resource conserving production methods? . . . [mbs] If I believed what you say, yes. . . . Wouldn't that in turn take some of the entirely justifiable pressures of migration in search of adequate wages to buy consumption goods off the North, which is feeding the current wave of xenophobia? . . . Maybe, maybe not. If I'm in Guatamala and life is better in the U.S., a given improvement in my life here does not necessarily deter me from seeking to migrate. It may in fact give me more means to do so. mbs
Labor Studies Conf.
CALL FOR PAPERS / REQUEST FOR WORKSHOPS BUILDING UNION POWER IN A CHANGING ECONOMY AFL-CIO / UALE EDUCATION CONFERENCE April 26-29, 2001, Park Plaza Hotel, Boston, Massachusetts This conference aims to bring together people from unions, universities, and social action groups who want to collectively explore ways of confronting corporate power at home and around the world in their work as trade unionists, educators, researchers and community activists. We are inviting proposals for papers, workshop sessions and round table discussions. While we will consider all proposals that relate to the theme of the conference, we are especially interested in encouraging research and discussions which provide fresh insights into and analysis of issues relating to corporate power and union strategic initiatives and responses to it, as well as implications for the practice of labor education and social/community action. We welcome paper and workshop proposals from researchers, labor educators, unionists, and activists from other countries. In particular we are looking for presentations which directly focus on the following sub-themes: ¨ Corporate control over the economy: Nature and degree of private control, changes over time (how "new" is the new economy?) Can unions gain power in this environment? Challenges by unions and communities. Labor's political role: a counter to corporate power? Teaching economics and politics to workers: what is our message? How effective are we? ¨ Organizing in the "new" economy: Analysis of efforts such as Voice @ Work, coalition building, community outreach, organizing strategies for new workers: youth, immigrants, college educated, "dot.com" workers. Teaching organizing and coalition building: what works, what doesn't? ¨ A changing labor market: the struggle for jobs. Analysis of labor market institutions and effects on women, youth, people of color, immigrants, low wage workers, highly skilled workers: including issues of access and discrimination. Who defines skill? Unions and workforce development: can we mount an effective challenge to corporate control of training? Government and community responses: how helpful is the law? Strategies for bargaining, education, coalition work. ¨ Technology, media, culture and information. Effects of private control of mass media and information/monitoring technology. Strategies for establishing a challenge to the ideology and practice of neo-liberalism and consumerist culture. Mass culture vs worker culture: developing class consciousness. The role of alternative and labor press and info technologies. How can we use the new information technologies in organizing, bargaining, and labor education? ¨ Collective bargaining in a changing economy-challenging corporate control of the workplace and the bargaining agenda. Bargaining as it relates to contingent workers, privatization and contracting out, technology, privacy, organizing rights. Bargaining across borders-what evidence of progress? Teaching bargaining in the context of economic change-innovations and experiments. Workshop and Roundtable Discussion Proposals: Workshops should be focused on the craft of labor education as it tackles the challenges of teaching about, and in, an environment of immense corporate power, particularly on the sub-themes listed above. Workshops should demonstrate a teaching technique on a topic relevant to our themes, introduce materials, and create a discussion that allows for feedback and sharing of experience. A limited number of workshops and roundtable discussions may address topics outside the theme which relate to general issues facing the labor movement and labor education. Proposals for workshops and roundtables should be one or two pages and include the session title and topic, a description of the content, and the names and addresses of the presenters. Proposals are due no later than September 29, 2000. Paper Proposals: Research papers which advance our understanding of the mechanisms and effects of corporate power are as important as interactive workshops. We are particularly interested in both case studies and quantitative research that use original data. (Opinion papers not supported by original research, should be submitted for roundtable topics). All papers must be written in a format and style which are accessible to the general reader, free from academic jargon. Paper presentations at the conference should be lively and informal presentations of the major findings and implications of the research. Papers will be grouped into sessions of approximately 3 papers on a related theme. Paper sessions will have union and university co-chairs. It is anticipated that a collection of selected papers from the conference will be published in a special issue of the Labor Studies Journal (see below). Paper proposals should be approximately 750-1000 words in length and are due no later than
RE: RE: Wage setting
mbs: Maybe, maybe not. If I'm in Guatemala and life is better in the U.S., a given improvement in my life here does not necessarily deter me from seeking to migrate. It may in fact give me more means to do so. == agreed given the individualism of your response, but if there is a net increase in the living standards of poor country X odds are the pressures for flight to greener pastures would diminish.** mbs: If I believed what you say, yes. === I can send you chapter 6 of Paul Ekins "Economic Growth and Environmental Sustainability: The Prospects for Green Growth if you like. The numbers ain't pretty and are based on some algorithms cooked up by that strange duo [well one of them anyway] Barry Commoner/Paul Ehrlich. Ian
RE: RE: RE: Wage setting
I can send you chapter 6 of Paul Ekins "Economic Growth and Environmental Sustainability: The Prospects for Green Growth if you like. The numbers ain't pretty and are based on some algorithms cooked up by that strange duo [well one of them anyway] Barry Commoner/Paul Ehrlich. Ian Ehrlich is not a credible person to me. Barry is another matter. We have an enviro economist here whose office is ten feet away, so I am not completely without access to wisdom on the topic. I'll see what he sez. mbs
RE: RE: Wage setting (was 'Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter')
OK, I am a labour economist (out of practise mind you, but one none the less). The relevance of the argument depends greatly upon the institutional setting of the labour market(s). Some industries have equality in bargaining power because of unions or because individuals skills are highly valuable, while others do not. therefore the gains to wages in one sector do not necessarily flow onto others. in addition, some sectors may find it beneficial to pay efficiency wages to avoid high turnover and the loss of productivity, while for others high turnover may not be so costly. Additionally, the argument that workers will move to where wages are higher, forcing wages up everywhere, is hindered greatly by the consideration of demand (are there enough jobs available?) and workers own demographics and attributes (particularly geographical mobility, skills etc.). enough for now. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 15 August 2000 2:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:590] RE: Wage setting (was 'Nader Demands Banning, Pulping of Harry Potter') Evidence we don't need no stinkin evidence . . . On the theory side, the simple idea that if a person with given skills can suitably perform the duties of an auto worker or sandwich man, there is some pressure on employers to offer more similar wages than otherwise (lower for the auto maker, higher for the sandwich mogul). The greater the sphere of high-labor standards jobs, the more pressure on other sectors to conform. An injury to one is an injury to all, in the vernacular. If this is wrong, I've been wasting a lot of time. In public economics, there is the noteworthy literature on the 'cost disease' in public services launched by Baumol -- increases in productivity and wages force lower productivity industries to bid up their wages in order to secure labor. More specifically, it obliges the public sector to raise spending to maintain a given output of services. Baumol also applied this to the arts. For more than that, you'll have to consult a real labor economist, which I am not. cheers, mbs Max, what theory/empirical evidence lays behind your statement: the wage of the 'guy in the auto plant' is crucial in putting upward pressure on labor standards in general. I've just started to do research on the spillover (or lack of spillover) of wage increases (decreases) from one 'key' industry to other 'nonkey' industries and on the existence (or not) of an economy-wide "standard" for wage increases. I've yet to reach any conclusions. So, any thoughts on this (mechanism of spillover, how 'standard' set, etc) would be appreciated. Eric Eric Nilsson Economics California State University, San Bernardino San Bernardino, CA 91711 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wage setting
mbs: Ehrlich is not a credible person to me. Agreed; butterflies he knows, the rest is c**p. For a great radicalization of their formula [and critique] try "Dangerous Intersections: Feminist Perspectives on Population, Environment Development" edited by J Silliman Y King Ian
individual class consciousness (oxymoron, I know...)
People. Can an individual develop a class consciousness (CC) without any associated general development of a CC? If so, how? If not, what is the next best thing? How would the individual behave (would he be self-destructive because their is no alternative outlet)? Has anyone explored this or any related themes (particularly in literature)? Hoping for answers... Adam
Re: RE: Wage setting
Ehrlich is not all bad. See Ehrlich, Paul R. and Anne H. Ehrlich. 1996. Betrayal of Science and Reason: How Anti-environmental Rhetoric Threatens Our Future (Washington, D.C.: Island Press). Lisa Ian Murray wrote: mbs: Ehrlich is not a credible person to me. Agreed; butterflies he knows, the rest is c**p. For a great radicalization of their formula [and critique] try "Dangerous Intersections: Feminist Perspectives on Population, Environment Development" edited by J Silliman Y King Ian -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: individual class consciousness (oxymoron, I know...)
Pure stabs in the dark to start the conversation. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People. Can an individual develop a class consciousness (CC) without any associated general development of a CC? No. CC without general development would probably involve contempt for workers whose work did not fit some spontaneous (unconscious) conception of what "real work" is. See the ugly Sunday comic strip called "Pluggers." If so, how? If not, what is the next best thing? Awareness (a) of the lack of CC and (b) of the need for it. (This is probably wrong.) How would the individual behave (would he be self-destructive because their is no alternative outlet)? About 25 years ago my wife formed a committee to push for the unionization of clerical workers at Illinois State University. (Janitorial, grounds, kitchen employees were already organized into AFSCME). AFSCME was no help whatever. So they tried IEA (Illinois Education Association). It helped some but not much. Then the (then famous) strike and jailing of the Normal Fire Department occurred. When the firefighters were released from jail there was a rally for them at the local Labor Hall. We were there. One of the officers of the AFSCME local (a real sexist asshole among other things) came storming up to my wife telling her she had no right to be there since she had betrayed the AFL-CIO. That *may* be an instance of CC without a general development.? Has anyone explored this or any related themes (particularly in literature)? Someone should have. The question had never occurred to me but it's a good one. Carrol Hoping for answers... Adam
Re: RE: So what's going to be in the new _State ofWorking America_?
So what's going to be in the new _State of Working America_? A few tidbits . . . Release date is 9/3. documents extent and nature of recent wage growth, productivity, and inequality trends discusses the "new economy" (sic) benefits of recent high employment mbs Labor-force upgrading in a high-pressure economy?
penner makes good
Earlier, we were able to cheer when Yoshie's work at Ohio State paid off. Now, Peter Bohmer seems to have been doing some good work. EVERGREEN COLLEGE'S NEGOTIATIONS WITH SODEXHO-MARRIOTT BREAK DOWN AMID PRISON CONTROVERSY For Immediate Release Friday, August 11, 2000 Contact: Kevin Pranis, Not With Our Money: Students Stop Prisons-for Profit (646) 486-6715, (917) 860-4635, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Olympia, WA. Students from Evergreen State College declared victory today in a two-month long struggle to keep a catering company tied to the for-profit private prison industry from taking over the school's food service contract. In July, administrators announced that the college was in final negotiations with Sodexho-Marriott Services (NYSE: SDH) over a 7-10 year contract, however those negotiations broke down on Monday amid growing controversy and threats of a campus-wide boycott. Evergreen is just the latest in a series of confrontations between Sodexho-Marriott and college students, who claim that the company's violations of workers' rights and relationship with scandal-ridden Corrections Corporation of America make it an unfit provider of campus dining services. A May 30, 2000 analysis by Merrill Lynch identifies Sodexho-Marriott as the 48%-owned subsidiary of Paris-based Sodexho Alliance which is, in turn, the largest investor in prisons for profit through its 17% stake in CCA and 9% stake in sister company Prison Realty Trust (NYSE: PZN). A national campaign launched on April 4 by a group calling itself Not With Our Money has been followed by the resignation of CCA founder "Doc" Crantz from the Sodexho Marriott board of directors, and loss of a Sodexho-Marriott contract at the State University of New York at Albany, where a coalition of labor and prison activist staged a sit-in to protest mistreatment of workers, private prison investments and the schools use of sweatshops. According to organizers, the campaign has received broad support from students, and has recently been endorsed by the United States Student Association and the Canadian Federation of Students. Private prisons make up the fastest growing segment of the U.S. prison and jail population, which will reach two million in the coming year according to a report by Justice Policy Institute. Reports of widespread abuse in facilities run by Corrections Corporation of America and Wackenhut Corrections, including guard brutality, denial of medical care and retention of prisoners beyond the time required by law, have led to calls for a ban on private prisons. Evergreen professor Peter Bohmer is convinced that student and faculty objections to the Sodexho-prison connection killed the contract. "A large part of the Evergreen faculty, students and staff at this college find it morally reprehensible to buy food from a corporation so closely connected to the use of prisoners for profit, and we made that clear in a major rally last week. This victory is 100% due to student organizing, and to administration and company fears of massive protests in the Fall." Senior Malka Fenyvesi concurs, "Students at Evergreen have a long history of standing up for social justice. We know it's people our age who are getting locked up in record numbers. We're not going to stand by while Sodexho tries to profit from their misery. ### Check out the NO MORE PRISONS hip hop compilation CD featuring: Hurricane G - dead prez - The Coup - Chubb Rock - Apani - Steele - Last Emperor Pri the Honey Dark - Lil Dap - Edo G. - Grandmaster Caz - Dialek - Vinia Mojica Top Dog/O.G.C. - The Reepz - Rubberroom - L Da Headtoucha - DJ Kool EQ Vinyl Reanimators - Helixx C. - Mike Ladd - Akbar - Yazeed - DJ Parker Lee Danny Hoch - Prof. Cornel West - El Battalion - Last Poets Now in Tower, Wherehouse, and Best Buy stores or online at amazon.com and CDNow.com. Kevin Pranis Prison Moratorium Project c/o DSA 180 Varick Street, 12th Floor New York, NY 10014 (646) 486-6715 (212) 727-8616 (fax) (917) 860-4635 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.nomoreprisons.org -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: individual class consciousness (oxymoron, I know...)
People. Can an individual develop a class consciousness (CC) without any associated general development of a CC? How would the individual behave (would he be self-destructive because their is no alternative outlet)? No. CC without general development would probably involve contempt for workers whose work did not fit some spontaneous (unconscious) conception of what "real work" Very interesting. I've actually been grappling with the idea that individual CC would manifest itself as inter and intra class envy, the two being quite contradictory in terms of outcomes. Inter-class envy might relate to anti-materialism and a general questioning of ones own role in society brought about by some perceived failure against a class standard (that standard being materialism, as established by the 'elite'). I suspect that the individuals reaction to this would be a general depression caused by questioning of ones own goals and achievements. Now, intra-class envy is the interesting one, and relates to your point about "real work". Here I think that anger rather than depression (or a more precisely, a general loss of perceived social standing which is set as much by the ruling elite as by a persons direct social grouping [any comments??...the economic argument about relatives vs absolutes is critical here]) is likely to be the reaction of the individual in this case; some may question the difference, but I prefer to think of the latter as less reactionary (can't think of anything better right now). Anger and envy will lead to the breakdown of important social institutions which have been historically important in keeping the class/social fabric together (for example, do people say hello to their neighbours as much?). Consequently, this is likely to also produce adverse implications for social structures at work...such as collective bargaining (hence the trend away from trade unionism...without understating the role of the capitalist system in undermining unionism). Consequently, I suspect at this level the individual would become more competitive (ie. materialistic). One issue I cannot resolve is why the individual would not become overtly reactionary against the system. For example, why aren't there more political assassinations in western countries? Is it because we maintain a sense of democracy or empathy for individuals under any circumstance? Is it because people fear the reprisal of such action? Sorry that this has been so convoluted, but I'm really thinking on the run here (and my sociology is very rusty). I can see a number of logical flaws in the ideas and any help would be appreciated. -Original Message- From: Carrol Cox [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Tuesday, 15 August 2000 11:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:615] Re: individual class consciousness (oxymoron, I know...) Pure stabs in the dark to start the conversation. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People. Can an individual develop a class consciousness (CC) without any associated general development of a CC? No. CC without general development would probably involve contempt for workers whose work did not fit some spontaneous (unconscious) conception of what "real work" is. See the ugly Sunday comic strip called "Pluggers." If so, how? If not, what is the next best thing? Awareness (a) of the lack of CC and (b) of the need for it. (This is probably wrong.) How would the individual behave (would he be self-destructive because their is no alternative outlet)? About 25 years ago my wife formed a committee to push for the unionization of clerical workers at Illinois State University. (Janitorial, grounds, kitchen employees were already organized into AFSCME). AFSCME was no help whatever. So they tried IEA (Illinois Education Association). It helped some but not much. Then the (then famous) strike and jailing of the Normal Fire Department occurred. When the firefighters were released from jail there was a rally for them at the local Labor Hall. We were there. One of the officers of the AFSCME local (a real sexist asshole among other things) came storming up to my wife telling her she had no right to be there since she had betrayed the AFL-CIO. That *may* be an instance of CC without a general development.? Has anyone explored this or any related themes (particularly in literature)? Someone should have. The question had never occurred to me but it's a good one. Carrol Hoping for answers... Adam
