Re: Stallin Stalin 3 of 3
Several excerpts: That is to say we are passing from an industrial formation to something new that has not yet taken shape. Is this not proof positive we are in transition: we don't know how to say what we want to say because transition by definition is instability of perceived form. Stated another way, the relationship between things is understood qualitatively after the emergence of a new qualitative feature that makes one say, oh a new relationship is talking place. It is my turn to say I concur. I also feel that a new relationship is taking place, although I don't know how to explain what I sense is coming to existence. Not necessarily this transition is discontinuous, such as a leap or a jump, but we are in transition to something new it feels. New is not necessarily better, though. We will see whether it is good or bad when we get there. All I am hoping is that we can give it a push in such direction that when the instability is over and a new equilibrium is reached, where we land for the most is more pleasant than it is now. Best, Sabri
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Re: Re: Stallin Stalin 3 of 3
In a message dated 11/22/02 11:54:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not that I disagree with that evolution of speculative capital contains a life of its own, that is, it is own laws, but I am not sure if we really can write down what exactly those laws are. Who knows! Maybe, we can approximate them as closely as possible for all practical purposes. Then, maybe not. Don't take this rant seriously. I was just taking a break from some boring garbage I am working on. Best, Sabri Hardly a rant. I will the same feel concerning "law systems" as approximations, especially in the field of "social sciences." That is to say "approximations" becomes fixed in the minds as categories - more than less, or "law systems" as we seek to unravel - as abstraction, the historical and social process. This "thing" called the mode of production in material life is a complex of a billion billion compounded individual and collective interactions. Trying to unravel its self movement demands concepts like "fundamentality" and Marx assertion that "at a certain stage in the development of the material power of production." The intellectual community correctly spends generations unraveling the specificity of the meaning of "at a certain stage." "At a certain stage" is extrmely abstract, an approximation so to speak. Melvin P.
Re: A real horror
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] Last night after returning from the tasty horror film The Ring, I turned on Charlie Rose and witnessed a real horror. Nancy Pelosi, who I've never seen before, was holding forth on the Democratic Party's prospects. On her lapel was the largest and most garish American flag pin I've ever seen on a politician. During the cold war Western pop culture forever depicted Soviet officials as preposterous figures in medal-bedecked business suits. Funny how all the ostentatious patriotic hardware is now appearing on American chests. Saw Bush and Powell meeting with Putin on TV the other night and was amused to see that both Bush and Powell were wearing flag pins on their lapels but Putin was not. Carl _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: how things change
Michael Perelman wrote: The New York Times reports that Bob Barr will now work as a consultant to the ACLU. Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doug
Re: Re: how things change
Yes, they hired Dick Armey also. What strikes me is that nobody on the left in political circles has spoken up, so that the right wingers look like brave heroes. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:57:59PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: The New York Times reports that Bob Barr will now work as a consultant to the ACLU. Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: how things change
Greetings Economists, Doug Henwood writes, Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doyle You loosely apply an anti-disabled phrasing to the enemy. For Socialists what are we to do with the loonies? Asylums? Is that the place to put someone who is a political enemy, an insane asylum? I mean obviously you use this lightly. Your term does not bear weight nor depth nor understanding. You use many terms lightly. thanks, Doyle Saylor
re: how things change
Title: re: [PEN-L:32495] how things change what surprises me is that Barr and Armey want to be associated with the ACLU. Isn't the ACLU liberal, and therefore bad, from the Reaganite perspective? Jim From: Michael Perelman Yes, they hired Dick Armey also. What strikes me is that nobody on the left in political circles has spoken up, so that the right wingers look like brave heroes. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:57:59PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: The New York Times reports that Bob Barr will now work as a consultant to the ACLU. Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doug
Re: re: how things change
dollars are not liberal or conservative. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:41:03PM -0800, Devine, James wrote: what surprises me is that Barr and Armey want to be associated with the ACLU. Isn't the ACLU liberal, and therefore bad, from the Reaganite perspective? Jim From: Michael Perelman Yes, they hired Dick Armey also. What strikes me is that nobody on the left in political circles has spoken up, so that the right wingers look like brave heroes. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:57:59PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: The New York Times reports that Bob Barr will now work as a consultant to the ACLU. Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: re: how things change
You think they're associating themselves with the ACLU for the money? C'mon, it's probably not that much. Like I said before, Barr's a loon, but he's a seriou civil libertarian and probably is anxious about threats to civil liberties. Armey's a bit more of a surprise. But an alliance with right libertarians against snooping and repression isn't a bad thing is it? Doug Michael Perelman wrote: dollars are not liberal or conservative. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:41:03PM -0800, Devine, James wrote: what surprises me is that Barr and Armey want to be associated with the ACLU. Isn't the ACLU liberal, and therefore bad, from the Reaganite perspective? Jim From: Michael Perelman Yes, they hired Dick Armey also. What strikes me is that nobody on the left in political circles has spoken up, so that the right wingers look like brave heroes. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:57:59PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: The New York Times reports that Bob Barr will now work as a consultant to the ACLU. Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: re: how things change
Dont you think the ACLU should be hiring people whose work is a bit more consistant with most of their values, (see exec. director Romero's an astonishing quote below)? There are plenty of good civil libertarians who are not right wing zealots who could make a better case than those two without supporting reaction financially and otherwise. You dont need to have them on payroll to have a tactical alliance either. When the Federalist Society starts paying NLG members too I'll consider the argument more seriously... We are delighted to have Congressman Barr join us in advocating for individual privacy, Mr. Romero said. It indicates that the A.C.L.U. has no permanent friends and no permanent allies, just permanent values. --- Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You think they're associating themselves with the ACLU for the money? C'mon, it's probably not that much. Like I said before, Barr's a loon, but he's a seriou civil libertarian and probably is anxious about threats to civil liberties. Armey's a bit more of a surprise. But an alliance with right libertarians againstsnooping and repression isn't a bad thing is it? Doug __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: Re: Re: re: how things change
No, it is not a bad thing. It is bad that it is necessary to find our allies on the right, while the left remains silent. Sen. Byrd is a noble exception -- he who was heretofore mostly a master of the porkbarrel. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:07:36PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: You think they're associating themselves with the ACLU for the money? C'mon, it's probably not that much. Like I said before, Barr's a loon, but he's a seriou civil libertarian and probably is anxious about threats to civil liberties. Armey's a bit more of a surprise. But an alliance with right libertarians against snooping and repression isn't a bad thing is it? Doug Michael Perelman wrote: dollars are not liberal or conservative. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:41:03PM -0800, Devine, James wrote: what surprises me is that Barr and Armey want to be associated with the ACLU. Isn't the ACLU liberal, and therefore bad, from the Reaganite perspective? Jim From: Michael Perelman Yes, they hired Dick Armey also. What strikes me is that nobody on the left in political circles has spoken up, so that the right wingers look like brave heroes. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:57:59PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: The New York Times reports that Bob Barr will now work as a consultant to the ACLU. Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: re: how things change
Michael Perelman wrote: No, it is not a bad thing. It is bad that it is necessary to find our allies on the right, while the left remains silent. What left? The left you I know isn't. The ACLU is full of liberals. If you mean the Dems, well they're not really the left, are they? Doug
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: how things change
Doug, you have a public voice, but few of us on the list really have a public voice as individuals. The wierd thing is that the snooping seems to be resonating very negatively once it moved from aliens to touching real Americans. On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:38:02PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: No, it is not a bad thing. It is bad that it is necessary to find our allies on the right, while the left remains silent. What left? The left you I know isn't. The ACLU is full of liberals. If you mean the Dems, well they're not really the left, are they? Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how things change
Dont you think the ACLU should be hiring people whose work is a bit more consistant with most of their values, (see exec. director Romero's an astonishing quote below)? There are plenty of good civil libertarians who are not right wing zealots who could make a better case than those two without supporting reaction financially and otherwise. You dont need to have them on payroll to have a tactical alliance either. What do consultants to ACLU actually do? -- Yoshie * Calendar of Events in Columbus: http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/calendar.html * Anti-War Activist Resources: http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/activist.html * Student International Forum: http://www.osu.edu/students/sif/ * Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osu.edu/students/CJP/
RE: Re: Re: re: how things change
Title: RE: [PEN-L:32499] Re: Re: re: how things change Doug Henwood writes: Not that much of a change - despite many other loony positions, Barr's always been a hardliner on civil liberties (like Ron Paul). Doyle writes: You loosely apply an anti-disabled phrasing to the enemy. For Socialists what are we to do with the loonies? Asylums? Is that the place to put someone who is a political enemy, an insane asylum? I mean obviously you use this lightly. Your term does not bear weight nor depth nor understanding. You use many terms lightly. Doyle, think it's a mistake to confuse loony positions with a reference to actual loonies. There are lots of (societally-defined) sane people out there who have loony positions (as I see them). John Ashcroft springs to mind, as does the crackpot realism of the cold-war liberals. (A loony position is illogical, goes against established empirical knowledge, and/or leaves out many of the issues and questions that should be addressed. It also eschews issues of morality. Of course, a lot of this is a matter of opinion (something that can change), suggesting that we should be very careful in labelling a position loony.) Similarly, perhaps the vast majority of societally-defined loonies have quite sane positions on many issues. In fact, some research argues that many with depression are more realistic about themselves than the normal people are. Someone on the psychological edge of society often has a clearer view of what's going on than someone who's in the middle of it all. Jim
pc language
We often use expressions, such as looney, to suggest that someone's ideas cannot be taken seriously. I have no idea how one could say something comparable, still using colorgul language. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AP: The US wants to showcase Turkey as an example
Turkish Lawmaker From Education Post Tue Nov 19, 3:31 PM ET By SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Turkey's president blocked a lawmaker from becoming education minister because he had been fired as a university dean for alleged Islamist activities, the prime minister said Tuesday. On Monday, new Prime Minister Abdullah Gul formed Turkey's first majority government in 15 years after his Cabinet list won the approval of President Ahmet Necdet Sezer. Gul's Justice and Development Party rebuilt out of a banned Islamic party won 363 of the 550 seats in parliament in the Nov. 3 elections in this NATO (news - web sites)-member country and key U.S. ally. The United States wants to showcase Turkey as an example of a secular, democratic country that is overwhelmingly Muslim. Gul, a moderate politician, confirmed newspaper reports that Besir Atalay had been selected for the education minister's post but instead was named a state minister without portfolio after the president objected. Gul then appointed Erkan Mumcu a former tourism minister who recently defected to the Islamic-rooted party to take the job. Atalay had been dean of the University of Kirikkale in central Turkey, but was sacked for allegedly appointing religious-oriented teachers and favoring students with Islamic views. The secular Turkish establishment attaches great importance to maintaining a nonreligious education in schools, which many believe have become breading grounds for radical Islam. Female students who wear head scarves, for example, are banned from classes. Newspapers reported Tuesday that Sezer switched a few other names in the cabinet list to assure that secular principles were maintained in key posts such as the Justice Ministry. Certain changes were made in the positions of some of our friends, Gul told reporters. Those were (Sezer's) wishes. The Justice party has taken pains to ease concerns that it has a secret Islamic agenda. Gul was appointed premier rather than party leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who was banned from holding the post because he was convicted for reading a poem that courts said incited religious hatred. As a result, the new government was expected to make amendments to the constitution to allow Erdogan to become premier. Outgoing premier Bulent Ecevit formally handed over his office to Gul in a symbolic ceremony Tuesday. Gul praised the ailing 77-year old, five-time premier as an unforgettable name and an important cornerstone in Turkish politics. The new government takes over with the Turkish economy in the worst recession in more than 50 years. Earlier Tuesday, Gul told an assembly of NATO-member lawmakers that improving the economy was his government's priority. He said it hopes to convince the European Union that Turkey should be given a clear date to start negotiations to join the bloc during a EU summit in December. In a speech in Parliament, Erdogan asked newly appointed Justice deputies to break away from the traditions of cronyism and absenteeism that have plagued Turkish politics. Those who failed to respond to the people's wishes are no longer here, he said, referring to the nearly all-new slate of lawmakers. Let's get to work. Erdogan then flew to Germany as part of a European tour to lobby for a EU membership date. Article at: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/ap/20021119/ap_on_ re_mi_ea/turkey_politics_37
Re: AP: The US wants to showcase Turkey as an example
A while ago Jim asked: Is the AKP a lot like Christian Democracy in Europe and Latin America? I did not know how to answer this question at the time. Now, I have an answer: No! AKP represents liberal islam or islamic liberalism. Of course, you need to use your imagination for a definition of what this means. If you can come up with your own definition, however, then you may want to call what they represent islo-liberalism, given what we know about neo-liberalism. To sum up, AKP is not Islamic Democrat but islo-liberal. This is why I still think AKP is a US creation, though I still don't have any proof. Sabri
