G'day Chas, It must seem like I follow you from list to list just to disagree with you .... Conditions can be such, and usually have been just after insurrections, that an ordinary man can become a'great' one in the historically influential sense. Stalin, whom Zinoviev and Kamenev helped put in the chair at Leon's expense, had it available to him to become what he was to become (and he was already an experienced killer) - and he duly became an experienced killer with Tsar-like powers. He became a mass murderer. Appeals to the murderous excesses of the west and the tendentious exaggerations of western historians don't cut it. People died, in their hundreds of thousands, who neither needed nor deserved to die - not by accident, not as the collateral damage ('premature deaths') of imperfect policy, but as the victims of a 'great' man - made 'great' by a system capable of making, indeed likely to make, just such a man. They died because Stalin sat atop a totalitarian system. *He* killed 'em, because a system many of his victims helped put there (yeah, yeah, within particular historical constraints, an' all that) allowed him to. Never mind WW1 and imperialist conflicts between competing powers - never mind that the bolsheviks under Lenin were constantly faced with ugly choices that led to a political system amenable to gross and obscene distortions - never mind S&K's pro-Stalin machinations - mind only that socialists today have to reckon with the history of socialist revolutions. It's a history that teaches anything is possible - that the people can make anything happen in the most inhospitable of circumstances - that socialism has proven itself a cause that has moved and transformed people just as Marx said it would - *and that hitherto it has evinced fundamental and tragic flaws that absolutely must be reckoned with here and now*. I don't know enough about China to say a dickie-bird on that (but I'm with Lord Acton on absolute power and the individual), but I reckon we gotta look at the future without (as Marx has it in the 18th Brumaire) 'the tradition of all the dead generations weigh[ing] like a nightmare on the brain of the living'. We're not in the business of defending Stalin, we're in the business of promoting socialism - which, as Zinoviev realised too late, ain't anywhere near the same thing. To think otherwise is to put all of us back - again and #!* again. Nuff said. Rob.