RE: Re: Re: Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
I appreciate that we have avoided a rehash of the market socialism debate. With regard to the surplus, many traditional societies consumed the surplus in the form of a ceremony at the end of the year rather than engaging in accumulation. In the investment banking community we used to call this ceremony bonus time. dd ___ Email Disclaimer This communication may contain confidential or privileged information and is for the attention of the named recipient only. It should not be passed on to any other person. Information relating to any company or security, is for information purposes only and should not be interpreted as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any security. The information on which this communication is based has been obtained from sources we believe to be reliable, but we do not guarantee its accuracy or completeness. All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice. All e-mail messages, and associated attachments, are subject to interception and monitoring for lawful business purposes. (c) 2002 Cazenove Service Company or affiliates. Cazenove Co. Ltd and Cazenove Fund Management Limited provide independent advice and are regulated by the Financial Services Authority and members of the London Stock Exchange. Cazenove Fund Management Jersey is a branch of Cazenove Fund Management Limited and is regulated by the Jersey Financial Services Commission. Cazenove Investment Fund Management Limited, regulated by the Financial Services Authority and a member of IMA, promotes only its own products and services. ___
Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
At 09/07/02 20:00 +, you wrote: It seems I'm not a market socialist after all, jks. Please forgive my treachery - I cannot abide the profit motive - I thought a market socialist believed in the market as a central means of determining economic development. My mistake. Will read the archives. Sé How can you run markets without a profit motive? jks It is common in most human societies that have ever existed to attempt to accumulate a surplus, but wouldn't Marx, strictly, say that a surplus is only profit under capitalist conditions of the private ownership of the means of production. At first sight in a technologically developed world, it might look the same but fundamentally and in subtle details it is not necessarily the same. Or is that just playing dialectical games with words, only necessary because of clinging with dogmatic obstinacy to the redundant concept of the law of value? Chris Burford
Re: Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
How can you run markets without a profit motive? jks It is common in most human societies that have ever existed to attempt to accumulate a surplus, Name one. The guilds and mechants of feudal times attempted to make profits, as did Roman traders, Arab caravaners, etc. They were not operating on Maussian gift principles. There are exchange systems without the profit motive, but markets are almost defined by the profit-making purpose of the exchange. but wouldn't Marx, strictly, say that a surplus is only profit under capitalist conditions of the private ownership of the means of production. No. Where do you get that? He'd say that profit represents SV under market conditions. At first sight in a technologically developed world, it might look the same but fundamentally and in subtle details it is not necessarily the same. Specify the difference, please. Or is that just playing dialectical games with words, only necessary because of clinging with dogmatic obstinacy to the redundant concept of the law of value? I can talk value talk with the best of 'em. I just don't believe in it. jks _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
I appreciate that we have avoided a rehash of the market socialism debate. With regard to the surplus, many traditional societies consumed the surplus in the form of a ceremony at the end of the year rather than engaging in accumulation. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901
Re: Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
How about something like this, at least for produce markets: The land is worked in common and the produce stored. People take from the stores according to their needs. Planting will be adjusted according to whether there are shortages or surpluses of products. These are truly free markets that avoid rationing on the basis of price as in conventional free markets. This is along the lines of the sort of thing attempted by Winstanley and the Diggers. Note that production is not a command economy but based upon market demand. Where is the profit motive? Cheers, Ken Hanly - Original Message - From: Justin Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 1:00 PM Subject: [PEN-L:27780] Re: Market Socialism - an apology already It seems I'm not a market socialist after all, jks. Please forgive my treachery - I cannot abide the profit motive - I thought a market socialist believed in the market as a central means of determining economic development. My mistake. Will read the archives. Sé How can you run markets without a profit motive? jks _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
How about something like this, at least for produce markets: The land is worked in common and the produce stored. People take from the stores according to their needs. Planting will be adjusted according to whether there are shortages or surpluses of products. These are truly free markets that avoid rationing on the basis of price as in conventional free markets. This is along the lines of the sort of thing attempted by Winstanley and the Diggers. Note that production is not a command economy but based upon market demand. Where is the profit motive? Cheers, Ken Hanly This isn't a market, unless any system that responds to demand is a market. In which case any but the most obtuse sort of planning is a market system. It's not what any market socialist means by a market. What we mean is that the producers produce for profit, and sell their stuff toothers on anm uh, open market, in the hope of realizing a profit. I recognize that this is extremrely evil and wicked, but we are servents of Satan, what can I say? jks _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: Re: Re: Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
This isn't a market, unless any system that responds to demand is a market. In which case any but the most obtuse sort of planning is a market system. It's not what any market socialist means by a market. What we mean is that the producers produce for profit, and sell their stuff toothers on anm uh, What is a stuff toother? Wasn't anm uh the 4th Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty? If so, I believe his name needs to be capitalized. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Market Socialism - an apology already
Martin, My apologies for my ignorance. It seems I'm not a market socialist after all, jks. Please forgive my treachery - I cannot abide the profit motive - I thought a market socialist believed in the market as a central means of determining economic development. My mistake. Will read the archives. Sé _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
Surely one can realistically hold the argument that we don't want to be a market society (based on the notion of capitlaist individualism and what that implies) and still hold to the notion of markets as allocation devices suitable in some instances in societies that are communitarian. Martin, My apologies for my ignorance. It seems I'm not a market socialist after all, jks. Please forgive my treachery - I cannot abide the profit motive - I thought a market socialist believed in the market as a central means of determining economic development. My mistake. Will read the archives. Sé _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com -- Dr. W.R. Needham Associate Chair, Undergraduate Affairs Department of Economics 200 University Avenue West, University of Waterloo, N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ontario, Canada Tel:519-888-4567 ext: 3949 Fax:519-725-0530 web: http://economics.uwaterloo.ca/fac-needham.html [We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects. - Herman Melville]
Re: Market Socialism - an apology already
It seems I'm not a market socialist after all, jks. Please forgive my treachery - I cannot abide the profit motive - I thought a market socialist believed in the market as a central means of determining economic development. My mistake. Will read the archives. Sé How can you run markets without a profit motive? jks _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
