Re: RE: On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy
Anthony P. D'Costa Associate Professor Ph: (253) 692-4462 Comparative International Development Fax: (253) 692-5718 University of WashingtonBox Number: 358436 1900 Commerce Street Tacoma, WA 98402, USA xxx On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Max Sawicky wrote: > Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:51:23 -0400 > From: Max Sawicky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [PEN-L:20946] RE: On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy > > HE: . . . We intellectuals have to join the organizations of these > committed workers and help them write a consistent programme > how to avoid ecological catastrophe by a world wide > proletarian revolution, and establish a minority > dictatorship which will carry out this programme with > Stalinist methods. > > You will be surprised how many liberals with support such a > proletarian-based movement once it is big enough. . . . > > [mbs] > When it's big enough, will we have a choice? > > HE: . . . Therefore > my advice is: join any proletarian communist party, whether > it be the Worker's World Party (my personal favorite at the > moment), the CPUSA, the SWP, etc., whatever, . . . > > [mbs] WWP does great banners, but my favorite is > the Naxalbari (CPI-M). They came into villages > and cut off landlords heads. It is not CPI-M, it is CPI-ML (marxists leninists). CPI-M is the ruling party of the state of West Bengal, now for two decades. Naxalbari, a village in north Bengal is the site of adhibasis (ancient peoples) or tribals. It is not surprising, given the massive exploitation that took place, that tools for cultivation would be used for annhilating the class enemy. > > HE: . . . Or use > your computer skills to write the software for a > computer-based planned economy, . . . > > [mbs] I've already done this. Unfortunately we > will have to limit ourselves to the production > of nuts and apples. > > HE: . . Whatever you > do, think big. Stop diddling around. > > Word. > > mbs > >
Re: On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy
Hans, do Hillier/Buttler have some secret parallel list where they hold the *real* discussion, as opposed to the vacuous imbecilism of their front-organisation, the marxist-leninist-take-me-for-an-idiot-list? Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList - Original Message - From: "Hans Ehrbar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 3:57 PM Subject: [PEN-L:20939] On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy > > >>>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:10:45 -0500, Carrol Cox > >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > So unless you really do agree with Hans Ehrbar on the need > > for an elitist putsch to stop global warming, you had > > better give some thought to how that mass support can be > > (beginning now) marshalled > > > It is not my view that an elitist putsch can stop global > warming. On the contrary, only those who experience the > exploitation and oppression of capitalism by their own body > and soul every day are able to put up the consistent fight > against capitalism that is needed. An appeal to the > intellect that the world is burning will not change the > members of PEN-L or any other email list into the devoted, > disciplined, selfless fighters which are able to overturn > the system. Thinking that it can or that it ought to is > idealism. Such fighters exist today, capitalism creates > lots of them every day with its cruelty, but in the leading > industrial countries they will always be in a minority. We > intellectuals have to join the organizations of these > committed workers and help them write a consistent programme > how to avoid ecological catastrophe by a world wide > proletarian revolution, and establish a minority > dictatorship which will carry out this programme with > Stalinist methods. > > You will be surprised how many liberals with support such a > proletarian-based movement once it is big enough. Therefore > my advice is: join any proletarian communist party, whether > it be the Worker's World Party (my personal favorite at the > moment), the CPUSA, the SWP, etc., whatever, and help them > reach more workers or improve their theory. For those who > cannot function in such an environment, an alternative might > be to use your computer skills to build a new internet-based > international which combines all these scattered proletarian > organizations. Sven Buttler and Jim Hillier's > marxist-leninist-list is working in this direction. Or use > your computer skills to write the software for a > computer-based planned economy, which could then perhaps be > adopted by countries like Cuba, using Cockshott and Cottrell's > "Towards a New Socialism" as the starting point. Whatever you > do, think big. Stop diddling around. > > > > I am appending a message I sent to the bhaskar list on June 12 > which explains more of the theory behind this. > > > Hans Ehrbar. > > > > > Sunday morning I sent the following message to Louis Proyect's > > marxism list and to leninist-international. I think it might > > also be of interest to the Bhaskar list, since it was > > inspired by RB in at least two respects: > > > > > > (1) Bhaskars criticism of Marx that he, following Hegel, put > > too much emphasis on internal, at the expense of external > > contradictions (the ecological limits of the earth are an > > external contradiction of capitalism, and Marx's dictum in > > the preface that "the problem itself arises only when the > > material conditions for its solution are already present or > > are at least in the course of formation" is only valid for > > internal, not for external contradictions). > > > > > > (2) Bhaskar's repudiation of the fact-value distinction > > which encourages me to say here that only those who truly > > hate the capitalist system have a correct grasp of its > > reality. > > > > > > I have not yet received any responses for this posting on > > the other two lists. Something tells me that I might get a > > response on this list here. > > > > > > > Capitalism makes profits by the exploitation of labor. > > > Those who create all the surplus value, on which capital > > > depends in order to function, see their lives reduced to > > > drudgery, without enough time or money to care for their > > > children, without access to proper medical care, see their > > > neighborhoods blighted, their youth terrorized by police, > > > denied their life chances and a decent education, driven > > > into drugs. Every day they ar
RE: On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy
HE: . . . We intellectuals have to join the organizations of these committed workers and help them write a consistent programme how to avoid ecological catastrophe by a world wide proletarian revolution, and establish a minority dictatorship which will carry out this programme with Stalinist methods. You will be surprised how many liberals with support such a proletarian-based movement once it is big enough. . . . [mbs] When it's big enough, will we have a choice? HE: . . . Therefore my advice is: join any proletarian communist party, whether it be the Worker's World Party (my personal favorite at the moment), the CPUSA, the SWP, etc., whatever, . . . [mbs] WWP does great banners, but my favorite is the Naxalbari (CPI-M). They came into villages and cut off landlords heads. HE: . . . Or use your computer skills to write the software for a computer-based planned economy, . . . [mbs] I've already done this. Unfortunately we will have to limit ourselves to the production of nuts and apples. HE: . . Whatever you do, think big. Stop diddling around. Word. mbs
On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:10:45 -0500, Carrol Cox > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > So unless you really do agree with Hans Ehrbar on the need > for an elitist putsch to stop global warming, you had > better give some thought to how that mass support can be > (beginning now) marshalled It is not my view that an elitist putsch can stop global warming. On the contrary, only those who experience the exploitation and oppression of capitalism by their own body and soul every day are able to put up the consistent fight against capitalism that is needed. An appeal to the intellect that the world is burning will not change the members of PEN-L or any other email list into the devoted, disciplined, selfless fighters which are able to overturn the system. Thinking that it can or that it ought to is idealism. Such fighters exist today, capitalism creates lots of them every day with its cruelty, but in the leading industrial countries they will always be in a minority. We intellectuals have to join the organizations of these committed workers and help them write a consistent programme how to avoid ecological catastrophe by a world wide proletarian revolution, and establish a minority dictatorship which will carry out this programme with Stalinist methods. You will be surprised how many liberals with support such a proletarian-based movement once it is big enough. Therefore my advice is: join any proletarian communist party, whether it be the Worker's World Party (my personal favorite at the moment), the CPUSA, the SWP, etc., whatever, and help them reach more workers or improve their theory. For those who cannot function in such an environment, an alternative might be to use your computer skills to build a new internet-based international which combines all these scattered proletarian organizations. Sven Buttler and Jim Hillier's marxist-leninist-list is working in this direction. Or use your computer skills to write the software for a computer-based planned economy, which could then perhaps be adopted by countries like Cuba, using Cockshott and Cottrell's "Towards a New Socialism" as the starting point. Whatever you do, think big. Stop diddling around. I am appending a message I sent to the bhaskar list on June 12 which explains more of the theory behind this. Hans Ehrbar. > Sunday morning I sent the following message to Louis Proyect's > marxism list and to leninist-international. I think it might > also be of interest to the Bhaskar list, since it was > inspired by RB in at least two respects: > > > (1) Bhaskars criticism of Marx that he, following Hegel, put > too much emphasis on internal, at the expense of external > contradictions (the ecological limits of the earth are an > external contradiction of capitalism, and Marx's dictum in > the preface that "the problem itself arises only when the > material conditions for its solution are already present or > are at least in the course of formation" is only valid for > internal, not for external contradictions). > > > (2) Bhaskar's repudiation of the fact-value distinction > which encourages me to say here that only those who truly > hate the capitalist system have a correct grasp of its > reality. > > > I have not yet received any responses for this posting on > the other two lists. Something tells me that I might get a > response on this list here. > > > > Capitalism makes profits by the exploitation of labor. > > Those who create all the surplus value, on which capital > > depends in order to function, see their lives reduced to > > drudgery, without enough time or money to care for their > > children, without access to proper medical care, see their > > neighborhoods blighted, their youth terrorized by police, > > denied their life chances and a decent education, driven > > into drugs. Every day they are reminded of the contempt the > > system has for their lives and everything that is dear to > > them. These people get to the point where every molecule in > > their body hates the system. They are also the ones that > > can overturn the system, because capital needs them, > > organizes them, teaches them hard work and discipline, and > > at the same time makes implacable enemies out of them. They > > are willing to face bullets and torture and their own deaths > > and continue fighting after 1000 defeats. This is what it > > takes to overturn the system. This is the vanguard which > > needs to organize itself world wide, even if they are a > > minority in countries like the USA. > > > > Capitalism also silently destroys the ecosphere. This side > > effect is worse than the human suffering of the workers, > > because it threatens to end all human civilization. It > > alarms lots of people of all classes, their numbers will > > eventually be greater than the minority I just talked about, > > and it drives some of them to heroic deeds. But being an > > external contradiction, it is not experienced by millions on > > t
On Mark to Rod, was Re: Re: re: energy
M A Jones wrote: > Rod, I'd be happy to debate you but metaphysical assertions about 'infinite > energy' which are easily + demonstrably untrue, are not a basis for debate. > So yes, quit this silly non-debate. Mark, I agree with this in substance, but much of my caterwauling at you and Lou both on Pen-L and on Marxism has been aimed at those features of your argument that, themselves tending to be metaphysical, encourage metaphysics in reply. Revolutions (peaceful or violent) have never been really majority affairs -- rather they have represented the majority of the population active (itself usually a minority) at a given time. But if you and Lou are pretty much right in your arguments on global warming and energy (and remember, that has been my premise all along), then the kind of changes necessary are going to require rather more massive public support than is usually needed in the early stages of a revolutionary regime. So unless you really do agree with Hans Ehrbar on the need for an elitist putsch to stop global warming, you had better give some thought to how that mass support can be (beginning now) marshalled -- and my prediction is that without the support of a number of people holding the views you are now attacking rather extravagantly, that movement is not going to come into existence. We don't need Heartfield and the Sparts. We do need Jose and Nestor and, yes, even Rod. Carrol
