RE: Re: RE: The American Dream
I wouldn't call constant bombardment with ads and the like "duress" or "brainwashing." People learn how to filter out ads (though of course children, who haven't learned the skill yet, are vulnerable and must be protected). Though there is a lot of indoctrination (especially about issues that people have no direct experience with, such as foreign policy), I think that a lot of the behavior you see among US residents reflects the conditions they face in day-to-day life. There, people find that there are few ways to support their kids except by excelling in the market and clawing up corporate or military bureaucracies (or academic ones). It is more true now than 40 years ago that this country is set up to reward those with market-type skills and personalities (passive aggression, etc.) The other thing is that the US -- unlike a lot of capitalist countries -- is able to provide a lot of benefits to those who "play the game" (and are allowed into the game). That's because the US is the dominant world power and scrambles to maintain its dominance (not just in Iraq but in terms of intellectual property rights, etc.) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine -Original Message-From: joanna bujes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:53 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [PEN-L:36457] Re: RE: The American Dream Third, I don't believe in the brainwashing theory of ideology, which treats people's ideas as mere objects for manipulation. Brainwashing only works when people are under duress and the like. In the U.S. people are exposed to commercial messages every fifteen minutes of their lives when they watch tv, constantly when in public spaces (billboards/tshirts/logos) etc. I call that brainwashing. The duress is that it can't be avoided. The insult to the individual is incalculable and completely invisible if you spend your whole life exposed to it. When I came to the US from Romania in 63, I heard a lot about communist propaganda and I had to laugh. The communist propaganda I was exposed to as a child was child's play compared to what I found in the U.S. People are trying to figure out how to live and do well for their families in a society that sets up all sorts of incentives to seek only individual solutions and limits individuals' ability to understand the big picture. Granted. It should also be pointed out that it's quite likely that the working-class version of the "American dream" is different from that of the professional-managerial middle classes or of the bourgeoisie.If you mean that the working-class version seeks the basics "education for the kids, a house, economic security, a vacation, time for a hobby"...while the brougeoisie seeks to own the world, sure. But what I'm pointing to is that inasmuch as the dream is defined only in individualistic material terms, it is a betrayal not a dream.Joanna --- I had written how can you say that the "American dream" is _anything_ if you haven't defined what in heck it means? How can you denigrate something that a lot of working people believe in (even though what it means is pretty vague) without providing any evidence or argument? That is simply sneering at people, not talking to them. It provides ammunition to the right. in addition to the above, Joanna wrote: Sorry. You're right. I take "The American Dream" to be the dream that an individual, by dint of hard work, can become anythingfrom CEO, to president, to rock star ---independently of the individual's sex, class, or race. I take the "American Dream" to be the idea that living inside of a bubble of material prospertiy is a life worthy of a human being. I think it's a life worthy of a domesticated dog. I am calling it a crock of shit because of its focus on the material gain of the "individual" and its complete ignorance of and indifference to the good of (or even the existence of) a larger communitynot to mention the earth. I'm calling it a crock of shit because it is a sterile and bankrupt vision that is a lie not only in representing the real possibilities for 95% of Americans but also in representing any life worth living.
RE: Re: The American Dream
Title: RE: [PEN-L:36438] Re: The American Dream how can you say that the American dream is _anything_ if you haven't defined what in heck it means? How can you denigrate something that a lot of working people believe in (even though what it means is pretty vague) without providing any evidence or argument? That is simply sneering at people, not talking to them. It provides ammunition to the right. Jim -Original Message- From: joanna bujes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 4/2/2003 3:03 PM Subject: [PEN-L:36438] Re: The American Dream The American Dream is a crock of shit. Why say anything in its defense? Joanna
Re: RE: Re: The American Dream
At 04:04 PM 04/02/2003 -0800, you wrote: how can you say that the American dream is _anything_ if you haven't defined what in heck it means? How can you denigrate something that a lot of working people believe in (even though what it means is pretty vague) without providing any evidence or argument? That is simply sneering at people, not talking to them. It provides ammunition to the right. Sorry. You're right. I take The American Dream to be the dream that an individual, by dint of hard work, can become anythingfrom CEO, to president, to rock star ---independently of the individual's sex, class, or race. I take the American Dream to be the idea that living inside of a bubble of material prospertiy is a life worthy of a human being. I think it's a life worthy of a domesticated dog. I am calling it a crock of shit because of its focus on the material gain of the individual and its complete ignorance of and indifference to the good of (or even the existence of) a larger communitynot to mention the earth. I'm calling it a crock of shit because it is a sterile and bankrupt vision that is a lie not only in representing the real possibilities for 95% of Americans but also in representing any life worth living. I think it is a mistake to call this something the working man believes in as if it were some kind of inborn creed as opposed to the result of a life-time of commerical brainwashing. Joanna
Re: RE: The American Dream
Third, I don't believe in the brainwashing theory of ideology, which treats people's ideas as mere objects for manipulation. Brainwashing only works when people are under duress and the like. In the U.S. people are exposed to commercial messages every fifteen minutes of their lives when they watch tv, constantly when in public spaces (billboards/tshirts/logos) etc. I call that brainwashing. The duress is that it can't be avoided. The insult to the individual is incalculable and completely invisible if you spend your whole life exposed to it. When I came to the US from Romania in 63, I heard a lot about communist propaganda and I had to laugh. The communist propaganda I was exposed to as a child was child's play compared to what I found in the U.S. People are trying to figure out how to live and do well for their families in a society that sets up all sorts of incentives to seek only individual solutions and limits individuals' ability to understand the big picture. Granted. It should also be pointed out that it's quite likely that the working-class version of the American dream is different from that of the professional-managerial middle classes or of the bourgeoisie. If you mean that the working-class version seeks the basics education for the kids, a house, economic security, a vacation, time for a hobby...while the brougeoisie seeks to own the world, sure. But what I'm pointing to is that inasmuch as the dream is defined only in individualistic material terms, it is a betrayal not a dream. Joanna --- I had written how can you say that the American dream is _anything_ if you haven't defined what in heck it means? How can you denigrate something that a lot of working people believe in (even though what it means is pretty vague) without providing any evidence or argument? That is simply sneering at people, not talking to them. It provides ammunition to the right. in addition to the above, Joanna wrote: Sorry. You're right. I take The American Dream to be the dream that an individual, by dint of hard work, can become anythingfrom CEO, to president, to rock star ---independently of the individual's sex, class, or race. I take the American Dream to be the idea that living inside of a bubble of material prospertiy is a life worthy of a human being. I think it's a life worthy of a domesticated dog. I am calling it a crock of shit because of its focus on the material gain of the individual and its complete ignorance of and indifference to the good of (or even the existence of) a larger communitynot to mention the earth. I'm calling it a crock of shit because it is a sterile and bankrupt vision that is a lie not only in representing the real possibilities for 95% of Americans but also in representing any life worth living.
