Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
Richard Duchesne: Not trying to tease - and would rather have this post ignored - but really, how can anyone try to make Marx into some ecologist just on the basis of a few pages in Capital on soil fertility. Foster would accomplish alot more if he stop projecting his own thoughts onto Marx, and simply present them as his own. Marx and Engels wrote about the relationship between society and nature throughout their career. One of the more important aspects of John's book is the restoration of the importance of materialism to their research. Marx collaborated with Engels on the conception of "Dialectics of Nature" and even contributed a chapter. This book, which was not published until after Lenin's death, also contains the chapter "The Role of Labor in the Transition from Ape to Man" which has often been available as a separate pamphlet. Here, as a reminder, is what it states: "Let us not, however, flatter ourselves overmuch on account of our human victories over nature. For each such victory nature takes its revenge on us. Each victory, it is true, in the first place brings about the results we expected, but in the second and third places it has quite different, unforeseen effects which only too often cancel the first. The people who, in Mesopotamia, Greece, Asia Minor and elsewhere, destroyed the forests to obtain cultivable land, never dreamed that by removing along with the forests the collecting centres and reservoirs of moisture they were laying the basis for the present forlorn state of those countries. When the Italians of the Alps used up the pine forests on the southern slopes, so carefully cherished on the northern slopes, they had no inkling that by doing so they were cutting at the roots of the dairy industry in their region; they had still less inkling that they were thereby depriving their mountain springs of water for the greater part of the year, and making it possible for them to pour still more furious torrents on the plains during the rainy seasons. Those who spread the potato in Europe were not aware that with these farinaceous tubers they were at the same time spreading scrofula. Thus at every step we are reminded that we by no means rule over nature like a conqueror over a foreign people, like someone standing outside nature -- but that we, with flesh, blood and brain, belong to nature, and exist in its midst, and that all our mastery of it consists in the fact that we have the advantage over all other creatures of being able to learn its laws and apply them correctly." Louis Proyect (The Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org)
Re: Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
Louis not quite here. It was only with the onset of the Cotton Famine that they began to take the environment seriously. I have written in my Marx book that he took the environment more seriously than he let on because he feared giving too much credence to the Malthusians. Louis Proyect wrote: Marx and Engels wrote about the relationship between society and nature throughout their career. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901
Re: Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
Richard Duchesne: Not trying to tease - and would rather have this post ignored - but really, how can anyone try to make Marx into some ecologist just on the basis of a few pages in Capital on soil fertility. Foster would accomplish alot more if he stop projecting his own thoughts onto Marx, and simply present them as his own. Duchesne clearly hasn't read Paul Burkett's research on Marx, Engels, and ecology, including Paul's recent book. Perhaps it's too boring a book for Ricardo, though, since it's very scholarly. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
Ricardo Duchesne wrote: Not trying to tease - and would rather have this post ignored - but really, how can anyone try to make Marx into some ecologist just on the basis of a few pages in Capital on soil fertility. Foster would accomplish alot more if he stop projecting his own thoughts onto Marx, and simply present them as his own. No, you're not trying to tease, you're trying to provoke, otherwise you would have ignored the post. There's enough reflexive anti-Marxism in the world without having to read it on PEN-L too. Doug
Re: Re: Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
I would have to side with Lou here. Marx did write about the relations between society and nature throughout his career. Otherwise, it is impossible to discuss human labour. His life long interest in the works of Aristotle and Hegel indicate that. That is not the same as saying that "took the environment seriously." Rod Hay Michael Perelman wrote: Louis not quite here. It was only with the onset of the Cotton Famine that they began to take the environment seriously. I have written in my Marx book that he took the environment more seriously than he let on because he feared giving too much credence to the Malthusians. Louis Proyect wrote: Marx and Engels wrote about the relationship between society and nature throughout their career. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
Rod, what Marx wrote early on about nature was relatively utopian and naive. Only after the US Civil war did he begin to look more deeply. Rod Hay wrote: I would have to side with Lou here. Marx did write about the relations between society and nature throughout his career. Otherwise, it is impossible to discuss human labour. His life long interest in the works of Aristotle and Hegel indicate that. That is not the same as saying that "took the environment seriously." Rod Hay Michael Perelman wrote: Louis not quite here. It was only with the onset of the Cotton Famine that they began to take the environment seriously. I have written in my Marx book that he took the environment more seriously than he let on because he feared giving too much credence to the Malthusians. Louis Proyect wrote: Marx and Engels wrote about the relationship between society and nature throughout their career. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Environmentalism and the American Socialist
Michael. I am making a distinction between writing about nature and writing about the environment. What he wrote about nature or more correctly about the mediate and immediate relations of purposeful human activity to nature (i.e. labour), is on a fairly abstract philosophical level. When he wrote about soil fertility, he is dealing with the more practical influence of human society on nature. So there is no necessary contradiction between what you wrote and what Lou wrote. Rod Hay Michael Perelman wrote: Rod, what Marx wrote early on about nature was relatively utopian and naive. Only after the US Civil war did he begin to look more deeply. Rod Hay wrote: I would have to side with Lou here. Marx did write about the relations between society and nature throughout his career. Otherwise, it is impossible to discuss human labour. His life long interest in the works of Aristotle and Hegel indicate that. That is not the same as saying that "took the environment seriously." Rod Hay Michael Perelman wrote: Louis not quite here. It was only with the onset of the Cotton Famine that they began to take the environment seriously. I have written in my Marx book that he took the environment more seriously than he let on because he feared giving too much credence to the Malthusians. Louis Proyect wrote: Marx and Engels wrote about the relationship between society and nature throughout their career. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901 -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada