Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because people need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what they're fighting against. Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable comment on this topic: Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18) Utopian visions can catalyze thought and action. They are not to be sneered at. Carl _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED] I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible ... Er, make that devoutly. Normally I don't follow up on spelling errors, but since Louis Proyect seems to be setting a new, higher standard on this score, I figured I should be punctilious in this instance :) Carl _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible's memorable comment on this topic: Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18) Utopian visions can catalyze thought and action. They are not to be sneered at. Carl This doesn't quite address my concerns. When William Morris wrote something like this, he was using his literary imagination: But on the Monday in question the Committee of Public Safety, on the one hand afraid of general unorganised pillage, and on the other emboldened by the wavering conduct of the authorities, sent a deputation provided with carts and all necessary gear to clear out two or three big provision stores in the centre of town, leaving papers with the shop managers promising to pay the price of them: and also in the part of the town where they were strongest they took possession of several bakers' shops and set men at work in them for the benefit of the people; - all of which was done with little or no disturbance, the police assisting in keeping order at the sack of the stores, as they would have done at a big fire. With Hahnel-Albert's Looking Forward, you are not dealing with imaginary political landscapes, you are dealing with blueprints for a future society: One tool for eliminating workplace hierarchy is workers' councils of all relevant workers. Small councils deal with immediate problems confronting small work groups. Larger councils make decisions for work teams encompassing a network of work groups, for example, in a wing or on a floor. Still larger councils make decisions for a division, a complex of divisions, or a plant, and federations of councils make decisions for an industry. Every council and federation principally concerns itself with affairs at its own level while contributing to decisions at higher levels in proportion to how they are affected. Some decisions require a majority of all members. Others, where the change has more drastic implications, may require two-thirds. Nothing requires that every decision must await every council's or worker's input. Personnel decisions are made only by people directly concerned. Decisions about breaks that affect a whole floor would be made by all involved on that floor. Plant decisions would be made by plant councils. In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of literature, namely the utopian novel. There are other examples, from More's Utopian to Samuel Butler's Erewhon. In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks ideal solutions to problems that had historical origins. In all of the various writings of Hahnel and Albert, you find almost no understanding of why the Soviet economy failed. Without such an understanding, nostrums like Looking Forward are useless. If the entire Bolshevik Party had voted in favor of Looking Forward in 1921, that would have had zero impact on the subsequent evolution of Soviet society. It imploded because of civil war and the failure of socialist revolutions in the west. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks ideal solutions to problems that had historical origins. Ralph Waldo Emerson much agreed with you. In criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier, he said in part: Our feeling was, that Fourier had skipped no fact but one, namely, Life. He treats man as a plastic thing, something that may be put up or down, ripened or retarded, moulded, polished, made into solid, or fluid, or gas, at the will of the leader; or, perhaps, as a vegetable, from which, though now a poor crab, a very good peach can by manure and exposure be in time produced, but skips the faculty of life, which spawns and scorns system and system-makers, which eludes all conditions, which makes or supplants a thousand phalanxes and New-Harmonies with each pulsation. Carl _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists. And in fact, I doubt that in the immediate issues, what we are fighting for today Albert and Hahel, Justin, and Michael Perlman would find much to disagree about. But if you want to win m ore than immediate reform, knowing where you want to go is part of knowing what to do. Besides, regardless on what you blame the failures on , actually existing socialisms have been pretty miserable places to live - not only in material goods but in terms of freedom. Workers are not stupid. If you ever want workers to support socialism in the future, you are going to have to give examples of how it can work better than it has in the past. Carl Remick wrote: From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks ideal solutions to problems that had historical origins. Ralph Waldo Emerson much agreed with you. In criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier, he said in part: Our feeling was, that Fourier had skipped no fact but one, namely, Life. He treats man as a plastic thing, something that may be put up or down, ripened or retarded, moulded, polished, made into solid, or fluid, or gas, at the will of the leader; or, perhaps, as a vegetable, from which, though now a poor crab, a very good peach can by manure and exposure be in time produced, but skips the faculty of life, which spawns and scorns system and system-makers, which eludes all conditions, which makes or supplants a thousand phalanxes and New-Harmonies with each pulsation. Carl _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
Gar wrote: I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists. I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be achieved. I believe that it miseducates people to write elaborate models. Marxists focus on strategies for revolution, not how future post-revolutionary societies will function. Besides, regardless on what you blame the failures on , actually existing socialisms have been pretty miserable places to live - not only in material goods but in terms of freedom. Workers are not stupid. If you ever want workers to support socialism in the future, you are going to have to give examples of how it can work better than it has in the past. I disagree. There will never be a revolution in a country like the USA until the material conditions have worsened to an extent not experienced in our lifetime. When that time arrives--as I am sure it will--people will care less about what took place in the USSR. We are looking at corporate malfeasance and declining stock markets, a combination that even Bush says might lead to questioning of the capitalist system. We are also faced with the prospects of a cataclysmic war with Iraq. In face of objective conditions that are only likely to worsen in the next ten years or so, it would be a diversion from our tasks as socialists to concoct castles in the air. People will not want assurances how the system of the future will work, they will want leadership to get the boot of capital off their necks. Hate to sound apocalyptic, but that's the way I see it. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be achieved. I believe that it miseducates people to write elaborate models. Marxists focus on strategies for revolution, not how future post-revolutionary societies will function. If it is the only thing maybe. But as part of a broader program of activism, how does it miseducate? Besides, regardless on what you blame the failures on , actually existing socialisms have been pretty miserable places to live - not only in material goods but in terms of freedom. Workers are not stupid. If you ever want workers to support socialism in the future, you are going to have to give examples of how it can work better than it has in the past. I disagree. There will never be a revolution in a country like the USA until the material conditions have worsened to an extent not experienced in our lifetime. When that time arrives--as I am sure it will--people will care less about what took place in the USSR. We are looking at corporate malfeasance and declining stock markets, a combination that even Bush says might lead to questioning of the capitalist system. We are also faced with the prospects of a cataclysmic war with Iraq. In face of objective conditions that are only likely to worsen in the next ten years or so, it would be a diversion from our tasks as socialists to concoct castles in the air. People will not want assurances how the system of the future will work, they will want leadership to get the boot of capital off their necks. Hate to sound apocalyptic, but that's the way I see it. The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can be better. I think you can find more examples of revolution during times of hope than during times of despair...
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier, said in part ... Michael Perelman asked offlist about the source of that quote. It's from Emerson's essay Fourierism and the Socialists -- text at http://www.xmission.com/~seldom74/emerson/fourier.html Carl _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
Gar: If it is the only thing maybe. But as part of a broader program of activism, how does it miseducate? It tries to makes a connection between our ideas and what happened in history. Against the managerialism of Lenin, Albert-Hahnel propose participatory economics. Russia did not end up with a bureaucratic monstrosity because of things in Lenin's brain, but because the civil war of 1918-1920 led to death of most of the people who actually made the revolution. Their place was taken by pie-cards and time-servers. This was not a function of ideology, but history. The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can be better. Well, our experience must be different. During the most explosive growth of the revolutionary movement in this country, from the Debs era, to the building of the CIO in the 1930s, to the 1960s antiwar, black and student movement, there was very little model building. I expect this will be the case during the next radicalization. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Re: Market socialism as a form of utopianism
At 11:54 AM 07/11/2002 -0700, Gar wrote: The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can be better. I think you can find more examples of revolution during times of hope than during times of despair... Yeah. Even that old weirdo, Eric Hoffer, noticed this. Joanna
