Re: perl 6 and web open source projects
herbert breunung wrote: Mark J. Reed wrote: I do think It Would Be Nice If there were a native Perl6 DRY/MVC/OMG/WTF/BBQ webapp dev framework ready to go (go where? into a webapp-oriented P6 distro, natch) around the same time that the lang itself is done. I imagine a port of Catalyst would fit the bill nicely. As far as i remember sri intended to be the next big version number of catalyst a p6 port and prepared some things for it, but as we all know sri is no longer the boss there. h If you look at the modules these frameworks use, you will see that some of them are always the same: DBI for DB access Cache::Cache for caching CGI (and CGI::Fast) well... TT, Mason for templates CGI::Session for persistence Most of them incorporate Dates, XML JSON Localization tools Images PDF ... I don't list the ORM tools as they are too numerous and none seems to stand out. I guess that all these frameworks tend to respond to needs that perl alone do not handle and doesn't offer : interoperability. Abstracting the module but keeping the final aim is a good way to see what todays web app needs. Old is the time when you could say : write a quick and dirty cgi to send an email. perl6 can be the kernel from which you built upon, Red hat, Fedora... like idea. this kernel is in itself within an other one that gives the global context I guess this make too much things to resolve. unless some very common needed features are to some extends recommanded as a 'should be' and not even a 'must be', the TMTOWTDI could lead to an unfortunate end. -- シリル・デュモン（Cyrille Dumont） [EMAIL PROTECTED] our work is the portrait of ourselves tel: 03-5690-0230 fax: 03-5690-7366 http://www.comquest.co.j
Re: Switch/Given and English, Was perl 6 grammar
I think the idea is that if your programming language keywords are all English anyway, you might as well have them make sense *as* English. That makes it easier for English-speakers to learn, without making it harder for non-English speakers - except for the fact that it's different from other programming languages they might already know. But that is going to be an issue regardless of the programmer's language, and so much of P6 is new that I don't think a differently-named switch statement is going to be anywhere near the top of the list of concerns. On 12/9/07, cdumont <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Richard Hainsworth wrote: > > > > > > >> I don't know why, this given... when sounds so 'English' without > >> really being that > >> English. > >> > > The construct sounds better in English than > ... case ...> because: > > a) Switch is more commonly used in English as a noun, eg., Use the > > switch to turn on the light. But because English can use nouns for > > verbs and adjectives as well, eg., 'Switch on the light' or 'he is a > > switched-on type of guy', it seems ok to use it in for control > > purposes. Except ... the verb is really 'switch on' not 'switch'. Also > > we have 'switch over', 'switch from', 'switch between' etc. where as > > 'switch' as a verb as in 'she just switched boyfriends' means > > exchanging one for another, not choosing between alternative cases. So > > really 'switch' as a verb is really more like 'toggle'. So when an > > English person (or at least one that cares about the use of language) > > sees 'switch' in a programming language, there is the feeling that > > something is missing, or not quite right. And there is absolutely no > > linguistic link between 'switch' and 'case'. If I am uncomfortable > > with 'switch', 'case' really sucks. In fact, whenever I work in > > language other than perl, and 'switch' is the preferred construct, I > > always have to check the syntax to work out what goes where. > > > > b) 'Given' is more commonly used in English as a verb form. 'He was > > given an award'. Also, it is in the correct form for use at the > > beginning of a sentence, eg., 'Given three choices, he chose the most > > profitable'. So we have something that looks and feels like it is a > > part of normal English speech. The 'when' part is also a natural tag > > in English indicating one of several alternatives. 'Given' can be used > > as noun (the power of English! as a language) as in 'we have a number > > of givens, but the issue is still unresolved'. This is much rarer than > > the use of 'given' in verb uses. > > > > c) You might ask, why bother? Just choose words, and since switch is > > the most common one, just use it. Well, computers dont care whether > > you use words or symbols, so long as semantics can be uniquely > > extracted from syntax, that is, the computer knows uniquely what you > > are trying to say to it. But the reality is that humans dont work that > > way. From the time of FORTRAN and COBOL, the aim has been to choose > > words over symbols so that they have semantic meaning for the > > programmer. It makes it easier for programmers to write descriptions > > of algorithms and operations, and to understand the logic of the > > descriptions they are writing. This reduces development and debugging > > time. Perl has been so successful, and my programming language of > > choice, because where words have been chosen, they have very similar > > semantics to normal English. That helps me in my programming. > > > I've never said that switch ... case was better than given ... when > or that switch ... case was even a good construct. > I have said that given ... when sounds weird as a construct > (not mentionning the use of past participle and on top of that of an > irregular verb). > I understand the meaning and I can get over it > but is proliferation of English idioms, words a good idea? > There're bunch of words that could describe the same idea > in a sligtly different manner. > Perhaps writting a la smallTalk could be the solution. > getting rid off all shortcuts and change them into explicit description > entities and write english sentences, not programs. > This could be nice but I will first have to learn English. > Anyway, I will write my own 'Lingua::Given::Francais' with avec ... > lorsque^^: > (well, if I can - ^^; xx 1000 ) > > > > -- > シリル・デュモン（Cyrille Dumont） > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > our work is the portrait of ourselves > tel: 03-5690-0230 fax: 03-5690-7366 > http://www.comquest.co.jp > > > -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Switch/Given and English, Was perl 6 grammar
Richard Hainsworth wrote: I don't know why, this given... when sounds so 'English' without really being that English. The construct sounds better in English than ... case ...> because: a) Switch is more commonly used in English as a noun, eg., Use the switch to turn on the light. But because English can use nouns for verbs and adjectives as well, eg., 'Switch on the light' or 'he is a switched-on type of guy', it seems ok to use it in for control purposes. Except ... the verb is really 'switch on' not 'switch'. Also we have 'switch over', 'switch from', 'switch between' etc. where as 'switch' as a verb as in 'she just switched boyfriends' means exchanging one for another, not choosing between alternative cases. So really 'switch' as a verb is really more like 'toggle'. So when an English person (or at least one that cares about the use of language) sees 'switch' in a programming language, there is the feeling that something is missing, or not quite right. And there is absolutely no linguistic link between 'switch' and 'case'. If I am uncomfortable with 'switch', 'case' really sucks. In fact, whenever I work in language other than perl, and 'switch' is the preferred construct, I always have to check the syntax to work out what goes where. b) 'Given' is more commonly used in English as a verb form. 'He was given an award'. Also, it is in the correct form for use at the beginning of a sentence, eg., 'Given three choices, he chose the most profitable'. So we have something that looks and feels like it is a part of normal English speech. The 'when' part is also a natural tag in English indicating one of several alternatives. 'Given' can be used as noun (the power of English! as a language) as in 'we have a number of givens, but the issue is still unresolved'. This is much rarer than the use of 'given' in verb uses. c) You might ask, why bother? Just choose words, and since switch is the most common one, just use it. Well, computers dont care whether you use words or symbols, so long as semantics can be uniquely extracted from syntax, that is, the computer knows uniquely what you are trying to say to it. But the reality is that humans dont work that way. From the time of FORTRAN and COBOL, the aim has been to choose words over symbols so that they have semantic meaning for the programmer. It makes it easier for programmers to write descriptions of algorithms and operations, and to understand the logic of the descriptions they are writing. This reduces development and debugging time. Perl has been so successful, and my programming language of choice, because where words have been chosen, they have very similar semantics to normal English. That helps me in my programming. I've never said that switch ... case was better than given ... when or that switch ... case was even a good construct. I have said that given ... when sounds weird as a construct (not mentionning the use of past participle and on top of that of an irregular verb). I understand the meaning and I can get over it but is proliferation of English idioms, words a good idea? There're bunch of words that could describe the same idea in a sligtly different manner. Perhaps writting a la smallTalk could be the solution. getting rid off all shortcuts and change them into explicit description entities and write english sentences, not programs. This could be nice but I will first have to learn English. Anyway, I will write my own 'Lingua::Given::Francais' with avec ... lorsque^^: (well, if I can - ^^; xx 1000 ) -- シリル・デュモン（Cyrille Dumont） [EMAIL PROTECTED] our work is the portrait of ourselves tel: 03-5690-0230 fax: 03-5690-7366 http://www.comquest.co.jp
Re: Standards bearers (was "Re: xml and perl 6")
On Saturday 08 December 2007 06:50:48 Richard Hainsworth wrote: > Surely, some concentrated thought by the inventive and resouceful minds of > who lead this project should go into language utilisation and > popularisation. My goodness, @Larry's pretty darn busy trying to build the core kernel of Perl 6 in such a way that the rest of the world can build beautiful and useful things around that kernel much in the same way that the CPAN as a whole is the shining gem of Perl 5. You, Mr. Hainsworth, and every other person reading this message from December 2007 through the singularity (aka Perl 7) officially have my permission to think about this yourself and pitch in! (Fixing the mixed metaphor in my first paragraph is a good start. Reading S11 is step two.) No one ever needed permission, but if it makes anyone feel better, there it is. -- c
Re: perl 6 and web open source projects
Mark J. Reed wrote: I do think It Would Be Nice If there were a native Perl6 DRY/MVC/OMG/WTF/BBQ webapp dev framework ready to go (go where? into a webapp-oriented P6 distro, natch) around the same time that the lang itself is done. I imagine a port of Catalyst would fit the bill nicely. As far as i remember sri intended to be the next big version number of catalyst a p6 port and prepared some things for it, but as we all know sri is no longer the boss there. h
once promised Perl 6 Tutorial
as you all can see under http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?tutorial I started to get real with. The main idea is that i want to keep an wiki and not make an POD out of it because i think Hypertext is better for learning. It is basicaly an english mirror of my german tut and thats good because some people find additions in english version and some in german, some can translate and so there is less to do for me, which is always good. So please join if you like and subscribe at the TPF socialtext wiki (Andy++) best herbert kephra.sf.net
