[DOCS] Switching to XML
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi All: I read a thread from July explaining the current status of moving to XML [1]. Peter, you mention that if someone has a clear need you would be open to switching. Let me explain the problems I've encountered with SGML. A few months ago, I split up the 8.1 pdf into 2 volumes so that I could get a hardbound copy from Lulu. You can get those here [2-3] (I'm not making any money, it's the pure cost of production). For 8.2, I wanted to go deeper and be able to distribute the final version to bookstores. In order to do that, each volume needs to be under 700 pages. I started work on modifying the SGML to use a set of 3 volumes, split at roughly 500 page intervals. I wanted to generate individual ToC's and indexes for each volume. I started to modify the SGML to include a "role" attribute for each indexterm, to tell what volume it was part of. This was done with a simple sed script. When I went to generate the actual indexes, I hit a brick wall. Apparently, the SGML toolchain cannot handle typed indexes as described here [4]. Only the XML toolchain currently handles them. I am working with Joshua Drake on creating a Lulu account for the fundraising group. We would then move the volumes I did for 8.1 to their account, and raise the price so that any profit went to them. The ability to order the 8.2 manual from bookstores could increase the visibility of the project as a whole. David Blewett 1. http://groups.google.com/group/pgsql.docs/browse_thread/thread/37ff3a011bb705d7 2. http://www.lulu.com/content/455020 3. http://www.lulu.com/content/464949 4. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/14/dbndx.html?page=3 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFeXIOZmlc6wNjtLYRAo2yAKCZT1NbsklCd8djADdv48MuLELG7wCfYYG3 ypUw8LU3g++GaY6Dz2vUi+I= =lC+c -END PGP SIGNATURE- ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 09:09 -0500, David Blewett wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi All: > > I read a thread from July explaining the current status of moving to XML > [1]. To add to this, it would take minutes to transform XML versus the days it takes the SGML. Joshua D. Drake > > Peter, you mention that if someone has a clear need you would be open to > switching. Let me explain the problems I've encountered with SGML. > > A few months ago, I split up the 8.1 pdf into 2 volumes so that I could > get a hardbound copy from Lulu. You can get those here [2-3] (I'm not > making any money, it's the pure cost of production). For 8.2, I wanted > to go deeper and be able to distribute the final version to bookstores. > In order to do that, each volume needs to be under 700 pages. > > I started work on modifying the SGML to use a set of 3 volumes, split at > roughly 500 page intervals. I wanted to generate individual ToC's and > indexes for each volume. I started to modify the SGML to include a > "role" attribute for each indexterm, to tell what volume it was part of. > This was done with a simple sed script. When I went to generate the > actual indexes, I hit a brick wall. Apparently, the SGML toolchain > cannot handle typed indexes as described here [4]. Only the XML > toolchain currently handles them. > > I am working with Joshua Drake on creating a Lulu account for the > fundraising group. We would then move the volumes I did for 8.1 to their > account, and raise the price so that any profit went to them. The > ability to order the 8.2 manual from bookstores could increase the > visibility of the project as a whole. > > David Blewett > > 1. > http://groups.google.com/group/pgsql.docs/browse_thread/thread/37ff3a011bb705d7 > 2. http://www.lulu.com/content/455020 > 3. http://www.lulu.com/content/464949 > 4. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/14/dbndx.html?page=3 > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFFeXIOZmlc6wNjtLYRAo2yAKCZT1NbsklCd8djADdv48MuLELG7wCfYYG3 > ypUw8LU3g++GaY6Dz2vUi+I= > =lC+c > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? > >http://archives.postgresql.org > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
David Blewett wrote: > I started work on modifying the SGML to use a set of 3 volumes, split > at roughly 500 page intervals. I wanted to generate individual ToC's > and indexes for each volume. I started to modify the SGML to include > a "role" attribute for each indexterm, to tell what volume it was > part of. This was done with a simple sed script. When I went to > generate the actual indexes, I hit a brick wall. Apparently, the SGML > toolchain cannot handle typed indexes as described here [4]. Only the > XML toolchain currently handles them. But no one is forcing you to use "the SGML toolchain". I requote the message you cited: First of all, moving to DocBook XML will not do anything in the way of improving our output processing abilities. Any tool that you can use on DocBook SGML can also be used on DocBook XML and vice versa. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
Peter, First of all, moving to DocBook XML will not do anything in the way of improving our output processing abilities. Any tool that you can use on DocBook SGML can also be used on DocBook XML and vice versa. As I said then, this is absolutely untrue. OpenOffice.org, for example, works with DocBook XML but not SGML. There are also a plethora of XML editing and publishing tools which can been used for Docbook XML which are not available for SGML. A simple look at this page: http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookAuthoringTools shows that there are more than twice as many authoring tools which support only XML as support SGML -- and that most of the tools which support SGML are out-of-maintenance. --Josh Berkus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 13:36 -0500, Josh Berkus wrote: > Peter, > > > First of all, moving to DocBook XML will not do anything in the way of > > improving our output processing abilities. Any tool that you can use > > on DocBook SGML can also be used on DocBook XML and vice versa. > > > > As I said then, this is absolutely untrue. You are correct Josh. I am not sure why Peter ignores this simple fact. > OpenOffice.org, for example, > works with DocBook XML but not SGML. There are also a plethora of XML > editing and publishing tools which can been used for Docbook XML which > are not available for SGML. A simple look at this page: > http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookAuthoringTools > shows that there are more than twice as many authoring tools which > support only XML as support SGML -- and that most of the tools which > support SGML are out-of-maintenance. Yep. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > --Josh Berkus > > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
Josh Berkus wrote: > As I said then, this is absolutely untrue. OpenOffice.org, for > example, works with DocBook XML but not SGML. What does "works" mean? > There are also a > plethora of XML editing and publishing tools which can been used for > Docbook XML which are not available for SGML. That has nothing to do with processing. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 21:15 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Josh Berkus wrote: > > As I said then, this is absolutely untrue. OpenOffice.org, for > > example, works with DocBook XML but not SGML. > > What does "works" mean? You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in OpenOfice.org. > > > There are also a > > plethora of XML editing and publishing tools which can been used for > > Docbook XML which are not available for SGML. > > That has nothing to do with processing. You are correct but XML does give us more modern and efficient toolsets for processing. XSLT, FOP + Xerces for example. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in > OpenOfice.org. Sure, there are more editing options with DocBook XML. No one disputes that. But the question at hand was about processing the DocBook. > You are correct but XML does give us more modern and efficient > toolsets for processing. XSLT, FOP + Xerces for example. You can do that right now. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 21:58 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in > > OpenOfice.org. > > Sure, there are more editing options with DocBook XML. No one disputes > that. But the question at hand was about processing the DocBook. Yes which is generated from our use of SGML which is the core of this problem and the core of the question as a whole. SGML is making working with the documentation *harder*. We have people that *DO NOT* contribute because of this SGML requirement. They have what I consider extremely valid reasons, namely it is dumb to require a writer to use emacs or write tags explictly. Hell, the only reason I have even bothered to contribute what little I have to the docs is because I wrote a book in SGML, thus it is a no brainer to me. Others aren't so tortured as to have done the same. There is a long standing support within the community to move to XML including: Josh Berkus Josh Drake Robert Treat Andrew Dunslane David Blewett David Fetter Devrim Gunduz Darcy Buskermolen And that is just from #postgresql The french team also uses Docbook XML and they can generate a PDF in 30 minutes... it takes us DAYS because of the SGML. How about we stopping using assembling and move to C shall we? Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 15:26, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 21:58 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in > > > OpenOfice.org. > > > > Sure, there are more editing options with DocBook XML. No one disputes > > that. But the question at hand was about processing the DocBook. > > Yes which is generated from our use of SGML which is the core of this > problem and the core of the question as a whole. > > SGML is making working with the documentation *harder*. > > We have people that *DO NOT* contribute because of this SGML > requirement. They have what I consider extremely valid reasons, namely > it is dumb to require a writer to use emacs or write tags explictly. I'm one. I had the vacuuming stuff about written, but couldn't figure out the tool set this summer, and didn't have the time. Does OO make it pretty much painless to work with? I couldn't find any tools that I felt comfortable using for SGML / Docbooks. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 15:45 -0600, Scott Marlowe wrote: > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 15:26, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 21:58 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in > > > > OpenOfice.org. > > > > > > Sure, there are more editing options with DocBook XML. No one disputes > > > that. But the question at hand was about processing the DocBook. > > > > Yes which is generated from our use of SGML which is the core of this > > problem and the core of the question as a whole. > > > > SGML is making working with the documentation *harder*. > > > > We have people that *DO NOT* contribute because of this SGML > > requirement. They have what I consider extremely valid reasons, namely > > it is dumb to require a writer to use emacs or write tags explictly. > > I'm one. I had the vacuuming stuff about written, but couldn't figure > out the tool set this summer, and didn't have the time. Does OO make it > pretty much painless to work with? I couldn't find any tools that I > felt comfortable using for SGML / Docbooks. OO treats Docbook like a normal document. You will however loose styles (like bold, italic). It does support tables, it understands transformation from things like sect1 (from OO heading1) etc... The style loss is to be expected because Docbook doesn't contain representation data. That belongs to a style sheet. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 15:51, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 15:45 -0600, Scott Marlowe wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 15:26, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 21:58 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in > > > > > OpenOfice.org. > > > > > > > > Sure, there are more editing options with DocBook XML. No one disputes > > > > that. But the question at hand was about processing the DocBook. > > > > > > Yes which is generated from our use of SGML which is the core of this > > > problem and the core of the question as a whole. > > > > > > SGML is making working with the documentation *harder*. > > > > > > We have people that *DO NOT* contribute because of this SGML > > > requirement. They have what I consider extremely valid reasons, namely > > > it is dumb to require a writer to use emacs or write tags explictly. > > > > I'm one. I had the vacuuming stuff about written, but couldn't figure > > out the tool set this summer, and didn't have the time. Does OO make it > > pretty much painless to work with? I couldn't find any tools that I > > felt comfortable using for SGML / Docbooks. > > OO treats Docbook like a normal document. You will however loose styles > (like bold, italic). It does support tables, it understands > transformation from things like sect1 (from OO heading1) etc... > > The style loss is to be expected because Docbook doesn't contain > representation data. That belongs to a style sheet. and let me add that I'm not really anti-sgml docbook, I just couldn't find a "starter set" for editing the stuff. It seemed like everything I found on docbook xml was written for people who already use docbook xml. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
> > OO treats Docbook like a normal document. You will however loose styles > > (like bold, italic). It does support tables, it understands > > transformation from things like sect1 (from OO heading1) etc... > > > > The style loss is to be expected because Docbook doesn't contain > > representation data. That belongs to a style sheet. > > and let me add that I'm not really anti-sgml docbook, I just couldn't > find a "starter set" for editing the stuff. It seemed like everything I > found on docbook xml was written for people who already use docbook xml. Nor am I anti-sgml. I am however anti-noncontribution, if people are not contributing because of our sgml but would if it is xml, that is a no brainer. Further, here is a real world problem that our toolset creates... I take 5 minutes, change the stylesheet for SGML. I want to see what my changes will look like... 3 days later, I will know. That is stupid. If it was XML, it would be 30 minutes. That is a workable timeframe. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at > > http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
Joshua D. Drake wrote: OO treats Docbook like a normal document. You will however loose styles (like bold, italic). It does support tables, it understands transformation from things like sect1 (from OO heading1) etc... The style loss is to be expected because Docbook doesn't contain representation data. That belongs to a style sheet. and let me add that I'm not really anti-sgml docbook, I just couldn't find a "starter set" for editing the stuff. It seemed like everything I found on docbook xml was written for people who already use docbook xml. Nor am I anti-sgml. I am however anti-noncontribution, if people are not contributing because of our sgml but would if it is xml, that is a no brainer. Further, here is a real world problem that our toolset creates... I take 5 minutes, change the stylesheet for SGML. I want to see what my changes will look like... 3 days later, I will know. That is stupid. If it was XML, it would be 30 minutes. That is a workable timeframe. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate I am not an expert in any of this but would say the one time I had something I would have added to a doc (windows Vs *nix differences in copy command) I was in knots with the whole SGML thing and figured it would be quicker to just post an answer on the mailing list so it would be immortalized, it should not be so hard to contribute. I feel there are people who maybe cannot code or add in that way but could add to docs if it was easier. I had an easier time setting up a pgAdmin build than figuring out the SGML stuff. Oisin smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [DOCS] Switching to XML
On 08/12/06, Joshua D. Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is a long standing support within the community to move to XML including: Josh Berkus Josh Drake Robert Treat Andrew Dunslane David Blewett David Fetter Devrim Gunduz Darcy Buskermolen And that is just from #postgresql And now in Chile, I wrote an app to translate postgres documentation (l10n.postgresql.cl). I took SGML sources, transform to XML and to POT files The results are good! but is it not the best. To move from SGML to XML is a hard work. -- http://www.advogato.org/person/mgonzalez/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [DOCS] 8.2.0 pdf
On Dec 7, 2006, at 12:03 AM, Devrim GUNDUZ wrote: Devrim, could you share your texmf.cnf ? My pdf creation failed even if I increased memory setting as it's recommended in jadetex installation. I had to increase several settings in that file. http://www.gunduz.org/postgresql/texmf.cnf ISTM that info should be in CVS, maybe in the README. Also, if PDF indexes depend on HTML, perhaps HTML should be a dependency of PDF in the Makefile. -- Jim Nasby[EMAIL PROTECTED] EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
