Re: [DOCS] High Availability, Load Balancing, and Replication Feature Matrix

2007-11-19 Thread Bruce Momjian
Markus Schiltknecht wrote:
> Hello Bruce,
> 
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Uh, I think of PgCluster as multi-master, but in a way it is a hybrid
> > because there is a central server that gets all the queries.
> 
> Yes, PgCluster as well as Sequoia use statement based replication. 
> Sequoia is also clearly a middleware (no changes to Postgres needed).
> 
> Both suffer from the limitations you describe in "statement based 
> replication middleware". AFAICT Sequoia does quite well in circumventing 
> those. (Heck, it even tries to masquerade differences between database 
> systems, so you can keep a Postgres database in sync with a MySQL one.)
> 
> Depending on the RAIDb level you are using, Sequoia can be considered 
> multi-master (RAIDb-1) or single-master (RAIDb-0). Also note that 
> sequoia can run multiple controllers, thus it does not rely on one 
> central server.

But in those cases isn't the multi-master just at the storage level?  I
don't consider that multi-"master".

> So, at least Sequoia is clearly a hybrid, in between your definitions of 
> "statement based replication middleware" and "synchronous multi-master 
> replication". Depending on how "middleware" you consider PgCluster, it's 
> also a hybrid. Certainly it does statement based replication.

I am afraid we are stuck between clarity and understand-ability here. ;-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Re: [DOCS] High Availability, Load Balancing, and Replication Feature Matrix

2007-11-19 Thread Markus Schiltknecht

Hello Bruce,

Bruce Momjian wrote:
Depending on the RAIDb level you are using, Sequoia can be considered 
multi-master (RAIDb-1) or single-master (RAIDb-0). Also note that 
sequoia can run multiple controllers, thus it does not rely on one 
central server.


But in those cases isn't the multi-master just at the storage level?  I
don't consider that multi-"master".


Eh.. I think you misunderstood. The Sequoia people use RAIDb to mean 
Redundant Array of Inexpensive _Databases_. A possible setup might look 
like:


  controller  <-->   controller  <-->  controller
   /   |  \   (GCS)   /  |   \   (GCS)   /  |   \
  /|   \ /   |\ /   |\
 DBDB   DB  DB   DBDB  DB   DBDB
 |  | . .   . ... .
local  local
disk   disk

(controllers may as well run on the same physical node as the DB itself)

Given we are talking about replication (mirroring), every database in 
the scenario above hosts a replica of the data and has to apply all 
(writing) transactions. That's pretty much what I'd call a master. The 
complete system can be considered a (statement based) multi-master 
replication solution. No shared storage or clustering file system is 
involved.


With RAIDb-0, where they distribute tables across different databases, 
we'd have a single-master solution. (Or rather data partitioning, since 
 there's no replica).


Then again, with RAIDb-2, which is what they call the mix of the two, 
i.e. combining mirroring and partitioning, we are back at a multi-master 
configuration, where only parts of all nodes are masters.


See also [1] for better diagrams and explanations of their RAIDb concept.

As a side note: I personally don't like the name RAIDb and even less the 
numbering. I prefer talking about replication (or mirroring) and 
partitioning, as that's more meaningful than numbers.



I am afraid we are stuck between clarity and understand-ability here. ;-)


Agreed, but that's where I think the current chapter creates confusion 
by trying to separate into "statement based replication middleware" and 
"synchronous multi-master replication". Such a separation does not 
exist, instead every combination of single vs. multi-master and 
statement based vs tuple based is possible. Examples:


single-master, tuple based: Slony-I, Mammoth Replicator
multi-master, tuple based: Postgres-R, Slony-II, maybe Bucardo (?)
single-master, statement based: maybe pgpool or skytools can do that (?)
multi-master, statement based: Sequoia, PgCluster

But IIRC we already had that discussion a year ago.

Regards

Markus

[1] C-JDBC site with samples
http://c-jdbc.objectweb.org/current/doc/userGuide/html/ar01s10.html

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Re: [DOCS] High Availability, Load Balancing, and Replication Feature Matrix

2007-11-19 Thread Bruce Momjian
Markus Schiltknecht wrote:
> Eh.. I think you misunderstood. The Sequoia people use RAIDb to mean 
> Redundant Array of Inexpensive _Databases_. A possible setup might look 
> like:

You are right.  I didn't understand that.  Interesting.

> > I am afraid we are stuck between clarity and understand-ability here. ;-)
> 
> Agreed, but that's where I think the current chapter creates confusion 
> by trying to separate into "statement based replication middleware" and 
> "synchronous multi-master replication". Such a separation does not 
> exist, instead every combination of single vs. multi-master and 
> statement based vs tuple based is possible. Examples:
> 
> single-master, tuple based: Slony-I, Mammoth Replicator
> multi-master, tuple based: Postgres-R, Slony-II, maybe Bucardo (?)
> single-master, statement based: maybe pgpool or skytools can do that (?)
> multi-master, statement based: Sequoia, PgCluster

Uh, to me the issue is something like pgpool and Sequoia, where the
_master_/replication is happening _outside_ the server, vs something
like Oracle RAC where it is happening inside the server.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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