Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Carl Karsten]

I would like to remind everyone that
a) we are all friends,
and b) we don't need to reply to everything.

Now for some humour

https://xkcd.com/386/ "someone is wrong on the internet"

Tail of Banana talk, just before Get me off your ... very strong language
https://youtu.be/eC9rmsI7dnw?t=1m32s
(I make videos of presentations, that is a friend giving me something to
test new video mixing software.)

And thank you list admins for doing your admin things, both technical and
soft.



On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:

> Geoff Winkless  writes:
> > On 22 November 2017 at 14:19, Vick Khera  wrote:
> >> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM
> unsubscribe rules. You should re-think this workflow.
>
> > CAN-SPAM only applies to commercial email, "the primary purpose of
> > which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial
> > product or service”. This is a discussion mailing list and as such
> > does not come under the remit of CAN-SPAM.
>
> Even if it did, you do not need a community account to unsubscribe,
> only if you want to adjust your subscription in some other way.
>
> regards, tom lane
>
>


-- 
Carl K

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Tom Lane]

Geoff Winkless  writes:
> On 22 November 2017 at 14:19, Vick Khera  wrote:
>> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe 
>> rules. You should re-think this workflow.

> CAN-SPAM only applies to commercial email, "the primary purpose of
> which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial
> product or service”. This is a discussion mailing list and as such
> does not come under the remit of CAN-SPAM.

Even if it did, you do not need a community account to unsubscribe,
only if you want to adjust your subscription in some other way.

regards, tom lane

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Stephen Frost]

Vick,

* Vick Khera (vi...@khera.org) wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Stephen Frost  wrote:
> > * Mike Sofen (mso...@runbox.com) wrote:
> > > Confirmed, I did not get a reset email either.  Also, I had subscribed
> > to the digest version and now I get individual emails - which is why I
> > needed to login, but my password no longer worked.  Sigh.  Mike
> >
> > I've replied to Mike directly off-list, but wanted to let others know
> > who might be concerned about the reset link- it *does* work, but only if
> > you have an account already in the system.
> >
> > It's possible to be subscribed to the PostgreSQL mailing lists without
> > having a community account.  If you find that you don't get an email
> > after going through the 'reset password' link, try creating a new
> > account instead.
> 
> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe
> rules. You should re-think this workflow.

To be clear- you do *NOT* need an account to unsubscribe, you need an
account to be able to manage your subscriptions and to change global
settings for your subscriptions.

As mentioned many times already, you can unsubscribe, without an
account, by following the link in each and every email that is sent by
the list server in the List-Unsubscribe header, as hundreds have already
done.  Further, an email can be sent to
pgsql-general-unsubscr...@postgresql.org to request unsubscription
without having an account.

And, lastly, if you wish to have any further discussion regarding the
mailing lists, please contact me directly, I believe we've gone over
this quite enough already on this list and it's not really what this
list is for.

Thanks!

Stephen


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Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Geoff Winkless]

On 22 November 2017 at 14:19, Vick Khera  wrote:
>
> This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe 
> rules. You should re-think this workflow.


CAN-SPAM only applies to commercial email, "the primary purpose of
which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial
product or service”. This is a discussion mailing list and as such
does not come under the remit of CAN-SPAM.

Geoff

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Vick Khera]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Stephen Frost  wrote:

> Greetings everyone,
>
> * Mike Sofen (mso...@runbox.com) wrote:
> > Confirmed, I did not get a reset email either.  Also, I had subscribed
> to the digest version and now I get individual emails - which is why I
> needed to login, but my password no longer worked.  Sigh.  Mike
>
> I've replied to Mike directly off-list, but wanted to let others know
> who might be concerned about the reset link- it *does* work, but only if
> you have an account already in the system.
>
> It's possible to be subscribed to the PostgreSQL mailing lists without
> having a community account.  If you find that you don't get an email
> after going through the 'reset password' link, try creating a new
> account instead.
>

This sounds to me like you're going to run afoul of CAN-SPAM unsubscribe
rules. You should re-think this workflow.

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Stephen Frost]

Greetings everyone,

* Mike Sofen (mso...@runbox.com) wrote:
> Confirmed, I did not get a reset email either.  Also, I had subscribed to the 
> digest version and now I get individual emails - which is why I needed to 
> login, but my password no longer worked.  Sigh.  Mike

I've replied to Mike directly off-list, but wanted to let others know
who might be concerned about the reset link- it *does* work, but only if
you have an account already in the system.

It's possible to be subscribed to the PostgreSQL mailing lists without
having a community account.  If you find that you don't get an email
after going through the 'reset password' link, try creating a new
account instead.

Once you have an account, you can go over to the
https://lists.postgresql.org/manage system and see any lists which that
email address is subscribed to and, further, add other email addresses
that you have control over (there will be an email sent to each address
with a link for you to follow to confirm that you do have control over
it) and then you'll be able to see the lists those email addresses are
associated with.

Hope that helps, as always, please feel free to contact me directly,
off-list, with any further questions or concerns regarding the
PostgreSQL mailing lists or your subscriptions or accounts.

Thanks!

Stephen


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Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Niels Kristian Schjødt]

The password reset form does not work. I do not get any reset emails when 
entering mine, so I can’t unsubscribe.

> Den 22. nov. 2017 kl. 04.24 skrev Stephen Frost :
> 
> Igor,
> 
> * Igor Korot (ikoro...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> Can anyone explain why?
>> Why not do what other ML do - provide the links in the footer?
> 
> This has been explained multiple times in multiple ways, including at
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce
> 
> Please drop it.  We won't be going back to having a footer and
> continuing to insist that the arguments outlined in the above post
> don't exist or aren't valid isn't going to change that.
> 
> If you'd really like to further discuss this, please take it off-list
> and contact me directly and we can chat about it, but this is not
> appropriate for this list any longer.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Stephen

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Igor Korot]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Jerry Regan
 wrote:
> I kind of agree with both.  Personally, my strengths are data communication. 
> Databases are frequent end points. Mailing lists? Have never had a need to 
> work with them, so they’re in the, “don’t care” bucket so long as they work.
>
> As far as missing , ‘unsubscribe’ in headers/titles, my totally unscientific 
> experience with a limited number of mailing lists (email, text, etc) gives me 
> the impression unsubscribe in header/title is by far the most common method 
> provided. Also seems simplest, but then I’m just a user...;)

This is exactly a point.
Every single ML has a links in the footer to either the ML archives or
to the (un)-subscribe page.

But apparently from now on PG lists will not have it and if you want
to unsubscribe from the list you will need to open a header (why?)
find the appropriate link inside a bunch of non-useful information and
copy paste it into the mailer.

Can anyone explain why?
Why not do what other ML do - provide the links in the footer?

Thank you.

>
> /s/jr
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 05:02, Tom Lane  wrote:
>>
>> John R Pierce  writes:
 On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
 I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self
 explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this
 works, -general has all the people that don't.
>>
>>> rotfl, and ain't that the truth.
>>
>> I'm not sure I believe it.  People reading any database-oriented mailing
>> list are going to be pretty tech-savvy, I'd think.
>>
>>regards, tom lane
>>
>

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:46:42AM -0800, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self
> > explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this
> > works, -general has all the people that don't.
> 
> rotfl, and ain't that the truth.

I know it's enjoyable to make fun of one's users -- those of us who
make the DNS happen have apparently made a career of it -- but I don't
think it's fair or likely to endear the database system I love to
those who might be coming from, say, the database system that employs
me.

I am pretty sure I know as much about mail processing as most of the
people who were involved in this change.  I apparently missed an
important announcement; that hardly surprises me given the volume of
mail I read, and I am pleased to have been corrected (and apologised
accordingly).

But pointing and laughing at your users and suggesting that they are
ignorant rubes is what causes people to turn their backs.  I am not
going to apologise for being offended by that.  It's a nasty thing to
do on a -general list.

Best regards,

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
a...@crankycanuck.ca

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Tom Lane]

John R Pierce  writes:
> On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self 
>> explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this 
>> works, -general has all the people that don't. 

> rotfl, and ain't that the truth.

I'm not sure I believe it.  People reading any database-oriented mailing
list are going to be pretty tech-savvy, I'd think.

regards, tom lane

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[John R Pierce]

On 11/21/2017 11:42 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
I am not sure if that is sarcasm but I think the reason is pretty self 
explanatory. -Hackers have all the people that understand how all this 
works, -general has all the people that don't. 


rotfl, and ain't that the truth.


--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

Re: migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Stephen Frost]

Greetings,

* David G. Johnston (david.g.johns...@gmail.com) wrote:
> What would help the majority of readers is if a rule could be added that
> keys off of the word "unsubscribe" (and maybe some other key phrases) and
> dumps it into a non-public moderation queue where requests can be handled
> manually and prevented from reaching the list members.

This was already done.  Originally it was just against the body, now it
looks in the body and in the Subject.  Hindsight being what it is, we're
sorry we didn't have it in both places to begin with, but that's all
water under the bridge at this point.

We're now getting more emails on these threads than about either
PostgreSQL or people wanting to be unsubscribed.  Please, let's move on.

Thanks!

Stephen


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Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Steve Atkins]

> On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:39 AM, Andrew Sullivan  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 02:46:08PM -0800, Steve Atkins wrote:
>> That's poor practice, for several reasons - replay attacks with added content
>> and it being an extremely rare practice that's likely to trigger bugs in DKIM
>> validation are two. The latter is the much bigger deal.
>> 
>> It also doesn't help much for most MIME encoded mail (including base64
>> encoded plain text, like the mail I'm replying to).
>> 
>> Pretending those paragraphs aren't there is the right thing to do.
> 
> Yes.  Also the DMARC and forthcoming ARC mechanisms -- super important
> for people behind gmail and yahoo and so on -- make that feature not
> really work, AFAICT.  

It doesn't break DMARC or ARC as they only care if the mail is
authenticated via SPF or DKIM (with an aligned, blah, blah, blah) so
if the DKIM passes, even with an l= flag, it's OK. But ...

> I think that part of DKIM is busted, and the
> authors of it I've talked to seem to agree.

Pretty much, yes. Certainly for mail where you don't have tight control
over how it's generated.

Removing Subject tagging and footers of the messages isn't an accidental
side effect of the migration, it's (I assume) a primary goal of it.
If that weren't done, more and more people at large consumer mailbox
providers would increasingly have problems sending mail successfully
to the lists. 

Peoples mail filters will just have to adjust.

Blame Yahoo, not PGDG.

Cheers,
  Steve

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[John R Pierce]

On 11/21/2017 10:39 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 02:46:08PM -0800, Steve Atkins wrote:

That's poor practice, for several reasons - replay attacks with added content
and it being an extremely rare practice that's likely to trigger bugs in DKIM
validation are two. The latter is the much bigger deal.

It also doesn't help much for most MIME encoded mail (including base64
encoded plain text, like the mail I'm replying to).

Pretending those paragraphs aren't there is the right thing to do.

Yes.  Also the DMARC and forthcoming ARC mechanisms -- super important
for people behind gmail and yahoo and so on -- make that feature not
really work, AFAICT.  I think that part of DKIM is busted, and the
authors of it I've talked to seem to agree.


it seems to *ME* like a simpler solution to the original problem would 
have been to simply STRIP any DKIM out of the original messages, and 
continue to munge headers and footers like mail list reflectors have 
been doing for decades.



--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

migrations (was Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe)

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 08:40:08PM +0100, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> 
> Which is why the extra email was sent *after* the migration, to make sure
> it would be the first one *not* hitting peoples filters, and thus have a
> chance of being read even if the others weren't.

That surely didn't work, since the relevant people received that mail
after the migration had happened.

> So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that we have
> more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make those changes
> without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to hear it..

I don't have an answer for that, but I will note that if this
migration was announced weeks in advance I certainly missed it.  I
admit I was busy, but I can't find it in the mail I didn't read yet,
either.

Maybe a two week heads up that some time in the future the mail is
going to change (the same announcement as was sent) would help?

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
a...@anvilwalrusden.com

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Carl Karsten]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Tom Lane  wrote:

> Vick Khera  writes:
> > Did the list software change? All my messages from here are not being
> properly auto-files by the filter I have set up.
>
> Yes - did you not see either of the "migration to pglister" messages?
> There's a summary of the changes at
>
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce
>
> Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending
> "unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything
> except to annoy the rest of the list membership.
>


It might get you a video full of foul language  :)

https://youtu.be/eC9rmsI7dnw?t=1m42s


>
> regards, tom lane
>
>


-- 
Carl K

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Gavin Flower]

On 21/11/17 09:20, Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Joshua D. Drake > wrote:


On 11/20/2017 12:03 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug.
In order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming
classified
as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we
can't mangle the Subject: line.


Ugh, o.k.

In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now
included in
mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
mail agents that don't handle that.


I use Thunderbird which I imagine most people on the lists are
using. I can't find where these would work to unsubscribe.


Not even remotely. People use gmail. See 
https://blog.hagander.net/mail-agents-in-the-postgresql-community-233/ 
.


And gmail does automatically show an unsubscribe link on these mails. 
See attached screenshot for the mail from Jonathan earlier today as an 
example.


--
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: https://www.hagander.net/ 
 Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/ 


Not everyone uses gmail!

I would never recommend it use for either for personal or business use - 
as Googol scans it for commercial [purposes.



Cheers,
Gavin

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Steve Atkins]

> On Nov 20, 2017, at 2:18 PM, Piotr Stefaniak  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2017-11-20 21:03, Tom Lane wrote:
>> "Joshua D. Drake"  writes:
>>> On 11/20/2017 11:40 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>> One thing I would note is that there is no longer a footer that
>>> tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. Perhaps one 
>>> thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time period)
>>> that says:
>>> The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see
>>> this page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and
>>> filters. And then after the temporary time period that becomes a
>>> footer?
>> 
>> Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug. In
>> order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified 
>> as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we 
>> can't mangle the Subject: line.
> I don't miss the footers, but see RFC 6376, "5.3.1. Body Length Limits". 
> Two fragments quoted are copied below:

That's poor practice, for several reasons - replay attacks with added content
and it being an extremely rare practice that's likely to trigger bugs in DKIM
validation are two. The latter is the much bigger deal.

It also doesn't help much for most MIME encoded mail (including base64
encoded plain text, like the mail I'm replying to).

Pretending those paragraphs aren't there is the right thing to do.

Cheers,
  Steve



> 
>> A body length count MAY be specified to limit the signature 
>> calculation to an initial prefix of the body text, measured in 
>> octets. If the body length count is not specified, the entire message
>> body is signed.
> 
>> INFORMATIVE RATIONALE: This capability is provided because it is very
>> common for mailing lists to add trailers to messages (e.g., 
>> instructions on how to get off the list). Until those messages are
>> also signed, the body length count is a useful tool for the Verifier
>> since it can, as a matter of policy, accept messages having valid
>> signatures with extraneous data.

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Piotr Stefaniak]

On 2017-11-20 21:03, Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake"  writes:
>> On 11/20/2017 11:40 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>> One thing I would note is that there is no longer a footer that
>> tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. Perhaps one 
>> thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time period)
>> that says:
>> The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see
>> this page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and
>> filters. And then after the temporary time period that becomes a
>> footer?
> 
> Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug. In
> order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified 
> as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we 
> can't mangle the Subject: line.
I don't miss the footers, but see RFC 6376, "5.3.1. Body Length Limits". 
Two fragments quoted are copied below:

> A body length count MAY be specified to limit the signature 
> calculation to an initial prefix of the body text, measured in 
> octets. If the body length count is not specified, the entire message
> body is signed.

> INFORMATIVE RATIONALE: This capability is provided because it is very
> common for mailing lists to add trailers to messages (e.g., 
> instructions on how to get off the list). Until those messages are
> also signed, the body length count is a useful tool for the Verifier
> since it can, as a matter of policy, accept messages having valid
> signatures with extraneous data.

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Stephen Frost]

Greetings,

* Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote:
> In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now included in
> mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
> buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
> mail agents that don't handle that.

Quite a few people have been using that capability with their MUAs very
successfully.  Magnus just mentioned we've had some 200 or so individual
unsubscribes done that way (note that wasn't distinct addresses but
unsubscribes across all lists).

Thanks!

Stephen


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Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Daniel Verite]

Magnus Hagander wrote:

> So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that we have
> more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make those changes
> without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to hear it..

I guess it's a bit late at this point, but in theory keeping the same
List-Id headers as before may help with how many people have to
change their filters.
Using lists.postgresql.org as the new domain was explained
in the announce, but it's not clear why List-Id had to follow
the other List-* fields.
Unless it was the reason mentioned in the last sentence below.

Quoting RFC-2919:

4. Persistence of List Identifiers

   Although the list identifier MAY be changed by the mailing list
   administrator this is not desirable.  (Note that there is no
   disadvantage to changing the description portion of the List-Id
   header.)  A MUA may not recognize the change to the list identifier
   because the MUA SHOULD treat a different list identifier as a
   different list.  As such the mailing list administrator SHOULD avoid
   changing the list identifier even when the host serving the list
   changes.  On the other hand, transitioning from an informal
   unmanaged-list-id-namespace to a domain namespace is an
   acceptable reason to change the list identifier.


Best regards,
-- 
Daniel Vérité
PostgreSQL-powered mailer: http://www.manitou-mail.org
Twitter: @DanielVerite

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Magnus Hagander]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:58 PM, John R Pierce  wrote:

> On 11/20/2017 12:49 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
>
>> Sigh, not surprised about gmail, its amazing how many .com's and .org's
>> use it now.  I'm not at ALL a fan of how the web client handles a bunch of
>> stuff like replies, & hiding your own messages from yourself.
>>
>
> oh and my biggest gripe, gmail seems to ignore the References header AND
> replies often don't seem to have that header, so if you're using a
> traditional threaded email client like Thunderbird, replies from gmail
> users don't seem to get threaded correctly and show up as new threads.
> gmail itself seems to thread purely based on Subject.


If people just use the reply feature in gmail it does set the References
header properly. It breaks threads intentionally if people edit the subject
(which you have to click a separate button to do). But if people hit the
reply buttons, the headers are correct. (I did quite a bit of analysis on
that when building the new list archives system a while ago). Many other
MUAs have much bigger problems -- but even Outlook and the Microsoft web
based ones do a decent job today. They certainly didn't use to do that...

And it's internal threading is way more complex than just using subject.
But the inability to override how it does that is definitely one of my
biggest gripes about gmail. But that only affects the user of gmail, not
the others on the list. (Unlike what broken references headers would do)

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: https://www.hagander.net/ 
 Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/ 

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Alvaro Herrera]

Edson Carlos Ericksson Richter wrote:

> I've been affected also, in a minor way, because I used to receive digest  2
> or 3 times a day, and now I'm receiving every e-mail again.
> This is, at least, annoying.
> would be better to keep the user options when migrating from one software to
> another.

Digests as a feature were considered for pglister and ultimately
rejected.  There is no value in digest nowadays: if you don't want the
emails to show up in your inbox individually, filter them to another
folder.  They impact to the rest of the subscribers too, when those
subscribed to the digest reply to it breaking all threads and quoting.
Also, they would be more work and resources to implement.

-- 
Álvaro Herrerahttps://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[John R Pierce]

On 11/20/2017 12:49 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
Sigh, not surprised about gmail, its amazing how many .com's and 
.org's use it now.  I'm not at ALL a fan of how the web client handles 
a bunch of stuff like replies, & hiding your own messages from yourself. 


oh and my biggest gripe, gmail seems to ignore the References header AND 
replies often don't seem to have that header, so if you're using a 
traditional threaded email client like Thunderbird, replies from gmail 
users don't seem to get threaded correctly and show up as new 
threads.    gmail itself seems to thread purely based on Subject.



--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 12:20 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Joshua D. Drake > wrote:


Not even remotely. People use gmail. See 
https://blog.hagander.net/mail-agents-in-the-postgresql-community-233/ 
.


And gmail does automatically show an unsubscribe link on these mails. 
See attached screenshot for the mail from Jonathan earlier today as an 
example.


Well Thunderbird is #2 ;) but yes I am aware that Gmail has the 
unsubscribe feature.


Thanks!

JD


--
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Edson Carlos Ericksson Richter]

Em 20/11/2017 18:07, Joshua D. Drake escreveu:

On 11/20/2017 12:03 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug.
In order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified
as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we
can't mangle the Subject: line.


Ugh, o.k.

In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now included in
mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
mail agents that don't handle that.


I use Thunderbird which I imagine most people on the lists are using. 
I can't find where these would work to unsubscribe.


Well this is a pain for everyone it seems.

JD

Seems that Thunderbird (latest stable version) doesn't understand the 
unsubscribe header.

Or, perhaps, it is wrong.

Regards,

Edson

RE: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Leavitt, Ted]

Vick,
  I thought it was just me.  Yes, the sender changed:

pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org<mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org> 
-> pgsql-general@lists.postgresql.org<mailto:pgsql-general@lists.postgresql.org>

I have updated my rules accordingly.

-Ted

From: Vick Khera [mailto:vi...@khera.org]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:58 AM
To: pgsql-general@lists.postgresql.org
Subject: Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

Did the list software change? All my messages from here are not being properly 
auto-files by the filter I have set up.

On Nov 20, 2017, at 13:48, Martin Fernau 
<martin.fer...@fernausoft.de<mailto:martin.fer...@fernausoft.de>> wrote:
PLS unsubscribe via 
https://lists.postgresql.org/manage/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.postgresql.org_manage_=DwMFaQ=UrUhmHsiTVT5qkaA4d_oSzcamb9hmamiCDMzBAEwC7E=iPrse5XWguV8YRO4FQgF7w=RgQ3RNflSqZjDrK-98gYUdH-FY0XIOSNWX9oi3og4LI=uxU76wstG5dprHZ4cBS3O_10ErB9eLZVjkvwQVGzHcs=>

Today I received dozens of unsubscribe mails, spamming my mail account :-)

thx
Am 20.11.2017 um 19:42 schrieb Ramalingam, Sankarakumar:


Thank you!

Kumar Ramalingam

From: Zacher, Stacy [mailto:szac...@mcw.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 12:56 PM
To: 
pgsql-general@lists.postgresql.org<mailto:pgsql-general@lists.postgresql.org>
Subject: unsubscribe



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Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Magnus Hagander]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:12 PM, Tom Lane  wrote:

> Magnus Hagander  writes:
> > Right. This is why you can send an emtil to say
> > pgsql-general-unsubscr...@lists.postgresql.org to unsubscribe.
>
> Oh?  First I've heard of that, and I do not see it mentioned on the
> PGLister_Announce wiki page.  It definitely should be.
>

Yeah, that's clearly an oversight on the wiki page.

We also try to trap the word unsubscribe in the beginning of the body to
moderate those. But that one misses a lot of combinations, because we don't
want to get stuck in the same situation as the old mj2 which captured way
too much.

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: https://www.hagander.net/ 
 Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/ 

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Magnus Hagander]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Joshua D. Drake 
wrote:

> On 11/20/2017 12:03 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug.
>> In order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified
>> as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we
>> can't mangle the Subject: line.
>>
>
> Ugh, o.k.
>
>> In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now included in
>> mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
>> buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
>> mail agents that don't handle that.
>>
>
> I use Thunderbird which I imagine most people on the lists are using. I
> can't find where these would work to unsubscribe.
>

Not even remotely. People use gmail. See https://blog.hagander.net/
mail-agents-in-the-postgresql-community-233/.

And gmail does automatically show an unsubscribe link on these mails. See
attached screenshot for the mail from Jonathan earlier today as an example.

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: https://www.hagander.net/ 
 Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/ 

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[John R Pierce]

On 11/20/2017 12:07 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
I use Thunderbird which I imagine most people on the lists are using. 
I can't find where these would work to unsubscribe. 


In Thunderbird, ctrl-U shows the full headers, but the List-Unsubscribe 
links are NOT shown as hotlinks, so you have to copy/paste them to a 
browser.




--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[John R Pierce]

On 11/20/2017 11:44 AM, Mengxuan Xia wrote:

A common feature in modern Email client is to allow users to unsubscribe in one line. 
This works by sending a email titled "unsubscribe" to the listserv, which most 
listserv these days are able to understand and unsubscribe the user.



thats a feature of many email list SERVERS, not the email clients.  
Mailman in particular looks for the major command keywords in the first 
few lines of the email, and will respond to them, even if they are sent 
to the regular list address instead of the command address.




--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[John R Pierce]

On 11/20/2017 11:45 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Perhaps one thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time 
period) that says:


The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see 
this page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and filters. 


vast majority of users never see the full headers, they just see From, 
To, Date, Subject, and everything else is hidden.  on a phone or a web 
mail system like gmail, its very hard to see that stuff.



--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 12:03 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug.
In order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified
as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we
can't mangle the Subject: line.


Ugh, o.k.

In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now included in
mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
mail agents that don't handle that.


I use Thunderbird which I imagine most people on the lists are using. I 
can't find where these would work to unsubscribe.


Well this is a pain for everyone it seems.

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Tom Lane]

"Joshua D. Drake"  writes:
> On 11/20/2017 11:40 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> One thing I would note is that there is no longer a footer 
> that tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. Perhaps one 
> thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time period) that 
> says:
> The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see this 
> page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and filters.
> And then after the temporary time period that becomes a footer?

Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug.
In order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified
as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we
can't mangle the Subject: line.

In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now included in
mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
mail agents that don't handle that.

regards, tom lane

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 11:45 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:


So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that 
we have more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make 
those changes without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to 
hear it..


I was thinking about that. I was actually surprised at how many people 
this affected. It only affected one filter for me so it wasn't that 
big of a deal. One thing I would note is that there is no longer a 
footer that tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. 
Perhaps one thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time 
period) that says:


The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see 
this page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and filters.


And then after the temporary time period that becomes a footer?


I would also note that removing the ability to unsubscribe in an 
standard fashion is rather user unfriendly. Although many spammers 
require that you go to a website, we rarely (I have never seen it) have 
to log in to unsubscribe from a list. If you add that most people and 
especially people that are on this list are going to be used to using 
email to subscribe/unsubscribe...


Thanks,

JD



Thanks,

JD



--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 11:40 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:


https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce


Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending
"unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything
except to annoy the rest of the list membership.


This is true but I would suggest it was a flaw in the migration
not the user wondering why they are currently getting spammed
because their filters no longer work.


So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that we 
have more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make those 
changes without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to hear it..


I was thinking about that. I was actually surprised at how many people 
this affected. It only affected one filter for me so it wasn't that big 
of a deal. One thing I would note is that there is no longer a footer 
that tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. Perhaps one 
thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time period) that 
says:


The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see this 
page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and filters.


And then after the temporary time period that becomes a footer?

Thanks,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

RE: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Mengxuan Xia]

A common feature in modern Email client is to allow users to unsubscribe in one 
line. This works by sending a email titled "unsubscribe" to the listserv, which 
most listserv these days are able to understand and unsubscribe the user.

-Original Message-
From: Alban Hertroys [mailto:haram...@gmail.com] 
Sent: November 20, 2017 2:41 PM
To: Tom Lane <t...@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Cc: Vick Khera <vi...@khera.org>; pgsql-general@lists.postgresql.org
Subject: Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe


> On 20 Nov 2017, at 20:11, Tom Lane <t...@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
> 
> Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending 
> "unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything except 
> to annoy the rest of the list membership.

I imagine that some people might think along the lines of: "Annoy them enough, 
and someone will do something about it".

And they could be right too, as no doubt some subscribers might figure that 
sending an auto-reply to any unsubscribe message to the list to the person in 
question - perhaps with an explanation of how to unsubscribe properly - would 
make that person use the correct method for unsubscribing rather sooner than 
later.

Please, as tempting as that sounds, be gentle to the list server and do not do 
that.

Alban Hertroys
--
If you can't see the forest for the trees, cut the trees and you'll find there 
is no forest.

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 11:11 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

Vick Khera  writes:

Did the list software change? All my messages from here are not being properly 
auto-files by the filter I have set up.

Yes - did you not see either of the "migration to pglister" messages?
There's a summary of the changes at


I certainly didn't. It is rather difficult for people with day lives 
that do not revolve around postgresql.org to keep up with the large 
amount of traffic that comes from the lists.




https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce

Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending
"unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything
except to annoy the rest of the list membership.


This is true but I would suggest it was a flaw in the migration not the 
user wondering why they are currently getting spammed because their 
filters no longer work.


Thanks,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Tom Lane]

Vick Khera  writes:
> Did the list software change? All my messages from here are not being 
> properly auto-files by the filter I have set up. 

Yes - did you not see either of the "migration to pglister" messages?
There's a summary of the changes at

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce

Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending
"unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything
except to annoy the rest of the list membership.

regards, tom lane