Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Scott Marlowe]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Tatsuo Ishii  wrote:
> I found following comment for using PostgreSQL with MediaWiki:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility#Database
>
> "Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
> production use at this point."
>
> This is a sad and disappointed statement for us. Should we help
> MediaWiki community to enhance this?

A few years back I worked at a company that put mediawiki into our
school content management system with postgresql. We had zero issues
with postgresql support, it mostly just worked.  Took us about 4 weeks
to get it working and tested and deployed.

The cool bit was that by creating a few triggers and views, we made
mediawiki think it was just sitting on top of the default database
when it fact it was sitting on top of our custom db. Each teacher /
classroom had its own wiki, and we had literally 10s of thousands of
independent wikis running, and they were plenty fast.

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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/20/2016 08:57 AM, John DeSoi wrote:



On Jul 18, 2016, at 11:47 PM, John R Pierce  wrote:

Drupal even tried to offer a database API so plugin developers wouldn't touch 
SQL directly, but too many ignored it.


I have been using Drupal with PostgreSQL for more than 10 years without too 
many problems. Since version 7 all of Drupal core works with PostgreSQL and I 
have encountered very few non-core modules that are MySQL specific. SQLite is 
also a core-supported database for Drupal.


Actually core has worked since 5. You are correct with 7, it is rare to 
find a popular external module that does not work with PostgreSQL.


JD



John DeSoi, Ph.D.






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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Raymond O'Donnell]

On 20/07/16 16:57, John DeSoi wrote:



On Jul 18, 2016, at 11:47 PM, John R Pierce 
wrote:

Drupal even tried to offer a database API so plugin developers
wouldn't touch SQL directly, but too many ignored it.


I have been using Drupal with PostgreSQL for more than 10 years
without too many problems. Since version 7 all of Drupal core works
with PostgreSQL and I have encountered very few non-core modules that
are MySQL specific. SQLite is also a core-supported database for
Drupal.


That's been my experience too. I remember some years ago a MySQL-ism in 
a query in the Nodequeue module was causing crashes on my 
Drupal/PostgreSQL installations; it was logged as a bug by the 
developers and fixed fairly quickly.


Ray.


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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[John DeSoi]

> On Jul 18, 2016, at 11:47 PM, John R Pierce  wrote:
> 
> Drupal even tried to offer a database API so plugin developers wouldn't touch 
> SQL directly, but too many ignored it.

I have been using Drupal with PostgreSQL for more than 10 years without too 
many problems. Since version 7 all of Drupal core works with PostgreSQL and I 
have encountered very few non-core modules that are MySQL specific. SQLite is 
also a core-supported database for Drupal.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.



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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Greg Sabino Mullane]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160


Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

> "Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
> production use at this point."
> 
> This is a sad and disappointed statement for us.

It's more of a labelling problem than anything else at this point. 
Postgres support in MediaWiki may not be perfect, but it is really quite 
good at this point. There are plenty of places using Postgres and MediaWiki 
in production. MediaWiki has come a long way from its mysql-centric roots, 
and has a decent database abstraction layer. The wording used to be 
far worse, for the record. :)

> Should we help. MediaWiki community to enhance this?

Help is always welcome. If anyone wants some specific guidance or places 
to start, hit me up on IRC (freenode) on either #postgresql or #mediawiki, 
username G_SabinoMullane.

The git/gerrit/phabricator process they use has a bit of a steep learning 
curve, but the code base is not too bad, considering it is written in PHP.
Even if you can't code, there are lots of ways to help, from bug triage, 
to documentation writing, to simply test installing MediaWiki.

See also:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_become_a_MediaWiki_hacker

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T2384 (Postgres support tracking)

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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/19/2016 12:20 AM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

On 7/18/2016 9:14 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:



My colleague has been working on making the latest version of WordPress
work with PostgreSQL (there used be a PostgreSQL plugin but it has not
been maintained and does not work with the latest version of
WordPress). I imagine there are someone who are attacking the classic
problem and I wonder as PostgreSQL community, what we can do for this.


As I recall, WordPress has always maintained that it is a MySQL based 
engine and that any other database is non-supported.




This may not be the brightest idea but what about starting with
creating wiki page listing such that works? This will help users who
want to use PostgreSQL with WordPress, MediaWikim Drupal etc. (and
many plugins).



It seems to me, the way to make this work is to have our members 
contribute to those projects to insure proper PostgreSQL support.


Sincerely,

JD


--
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+1-503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:55:09PM +0300, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:

> It seems we have made already a verdict about mysql's code migrated to
> PostgreSQL being slow

Experience with designed-for-MySQL code that is modified to go through
a so-called abstraction layer suggests that it will be.  There are
severaal anti-patterns in database use and access that are ubiquitous
under MySQL because of early limitations in MySQL.  Those uses are
often optimised away in MySQL.  Nevertheless,

> we accept it, it is far more productive having one dedicated small project
> for this mysql2pgsql conversion rather than N dedicated small teams for
> every mysql client out there.

…I don't think anyone is telling you, "Don't build this."  You should
do what you like with your time :)

A

-- 
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a...@crankycanuck.ca


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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Achilleas Mantzios]

On 19/07/2016 12:41, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:37:10PM +0300, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:

Better to run, even slowly, than not run at all, or require special porting 
team for every mysql client out there.


I'm not sure I agree.  If you teach every naïve user that, when they
compare Postgres to MySQL, MySQL always wins, what you teach them is
"Postgres performance sucks."


It seems we have made already a verdict about mysql's code migrated to PostgreSQL being slow, although far fetched assumption in itself,  even if we accept it, it is far more productive having one 
dedicated small project for this mysql2pgsql conversion rather than N dedicated small teams for every mysql client out there.




Best regards,

A




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IT DEV Lead
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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:37:10PM +0300, Achilleas Mantzios wrote:
> 
> Better to run, even slowly, than not run at all, or require special porting 
> team for every mysql client out there.
> 

I'm not sure I agree.  If you teach every naïve user that, when they
compare Postgres to MySQL, MySQL always wins, what you teach them is
"Postgres performance sucks."

Best regards,

A

-- 
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a...@crankycanuck.ca


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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Achilleas Mantzios]

On 19/07/2016 12:05, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

My colleague has been working on making the latest version of
WordPress
work with PostgreSQL (there used be a PostgreSQL plugin but it has not
been maintained and does not work with the latest version of
WordPress). I imagine there are someone who are attacking the classic
problem and I wonder as PostgreSQL community, what we can do for this.

IMHO the way to solve this is not running to catch up with the various
projects using a *SIMPLE* SQL backened, but rather create a new
postgresql project providing a mysql compatibility layer, something
like a server side parser that would translate the mysql commands to
real SQL (PostgreSQL) statements.
Then only one (this) project should be maintained, with no work wasted
in specific client software.
So, PostgreSQL can continue to do what it knows to do best, with no
worries of not being natively compatible with simplistic yet
proprietary systems like mysql.

I'm not sure that's the best way ever. Sometimes the approach results
in lesser performance of PostgreSQL than MySQL because of the SQL is
not optimized for PostgreSQL. For toy project, that's fine. But for
serious project it might bring bad performance and users will be
disappointed and speak like "PostgreSQL is slower than MySQL". I saw
that with Zabbix, for example.


Better to run, even slowly, than not run at all, or require special porting 
team for every mysql client out there.



Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp





--
Achilleas Mantzios
IT DEV Lead
IT DEPT
Dynacom Tankers Mgmt



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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Tatsuo Ishii]

>> My colleague has been working on making the latest version of
>> WordPress
>> work with PostgreSQL (there used be a PostgreSQL plugin but it has not
>> been maintained and does not work with the latest version of
>> WordPress). I imagine there are someone who are attacking the classic
>> problem and I wonder as PostgreSQL community, what we can do for this.
> 
> IMHO the way to solve this is not running to catch up with the various
> projects using a *SIMPLE* SQL backened, but rather create a new
> postgresql project providing a mysql compatibility layer, something
> like a server side parser that would translate the mysql commands to
> real SQL (PostgreSQL) statements.
> Then only one (this) project should be maintained, with no work wasted
> in specific client software.
> So, PostgreSQL can continue to do what it knows to do best, with no
> worries of not being natively compatible with simplistic yet
> proprietary systems like mysql.

I'm not sure that's the best way ever. Sometimes the approach results
in lesser performance of PostgreSQL than MySQL because of the SQL is
not optimized for PostgreSQL. For toy project, that's fine. But for
serious project it might bring bad performance and users will be
disappointed and speak like "PostgreSQL is slower than MySQL". I saw
that with Zabbix, for example.

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp


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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Berend Tober]

John R Pierce wrote:

On 7/18/2016 9:14 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

I found following comment for using PostgreSQL with MediaWiki:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility#Database

"Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
production use at this point."

This is a sad and disappointed statement for us. Should we help
MediaWiki community to enhance this?


the classic problem with any of these sorts of open source projects, while you 
can convert the core
system to postgres, there's a huge community of contributed plugins, and many 
of these authors have
zero interest in anything but their default database, mysql/mariadb.   I ran 
into this with Drupal,
Wordpress, a couple different forum projects. Drupal even tried to offer a 
database API so plugin
developers wouldn't touch SQL directly, but too many ignored it.






The quoted sentence is really more a statement on the Mediawiki product, NOT of Postgresql. The 
preceding half of the sentence makes that clear: "Support for any other database software ranges 
from dubious to stable..." It is not saying Postgresql is not ready for production, but that 
Mediawiki is not ready for production on a Postgresql.


It's a wiki page. Could you edit the page and make the second sentence in that paragraph more 
explicit about what, exactly, it is that is not ready for production? Clearly, there is plenty of 
evidence that Postgresql is way ready from production use.


In fact, now that page is fixed: "Running MediaWiki on anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not 
recommended for production use at this point."



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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Achilleas Mantzios]

On 19/07/2016 10:20, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

On 7/18/2016 9:14 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

I found following comment for using PostgreSQL with MediaWiki:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility#Database

"Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
production use at this point."

This is a sad and disappointed statement for us. Should we help
MediaWiki community to enhance this?

the classic problem with any of these sorts of open source projects,
while you can convert the core system to postgres, there's a huge
community of contributed plugins, and many of these authors have zero
interest in anything but their default database, mysql/mariadb.  I ran
into this with Drupal, Wordpress, a couple different forum projects.
Drupal even tried to offer a database API so plugin developers
wouldn't touch SQL directly, but too many ignored it.

Yeah, that's a classic problem. The reason why I raise the particular
problem was, I hoped situations were better with MediaWiki since it
has been used for PostgreSQL official site. But the truth is even
MediaWiki is not an exception.

My colleague has been working on making the latest version of WordPress
work with PostgreSQL (there used be a PostgreSQL plugin but it has not
been maintained and does not work with the latest version of
WordPress). I imagine there are someone who are attacking the classic
problem and I wonder as PostgreSQL community, what we can do for this.


IMHO the way to solve this is not running to catch up with the various projects using a *SIMPLE* SQL backened, but rather create a new postgresql project providing a mysql compatibility layer, 
something like a server side parser that would translate the mysql commands to real SQL (PostgreSQL) statements.

Then only one (this) project should be maintained, with no work wasted in 
specific client software.
So, PostgreSQL can continue to do what it knows to do best, with no worries of 
not being natively compatible with simplistic yet proprietary systems like 
mysql.


This may not be the brightest idea but what about starting with
creating wiki page listing such that works? This will help users who
want to use PostgreSQL with WordPress, MediaWikim Drupal etc. (and
many plugins).

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp





--
Achilleas Mantzios
IT DEV Lead
IT DEPT
Dynacom Tankers Mgmt



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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Tatsuo Ishii]

> On 7/18/2016 9:14 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
>> I found following comment for using PostgreSQL with MediaWiki:
>>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility#Database
>>
>> "Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
>> production use at this point."
>>
>> This is a sad and disappointed statement for us. Should we help
>> MediaWiki community to enhance this?
> 
> the classic problem with any of these sorts of open source projects,
> while you can convert the core system to postgres, there's a huge
> community of contributed plugins, and many of these authors have zero
> interest in anything but their default database, mysql/mariadb.  I ran
> into this with Drupal, Wordpress, a couple different forum projects.
> Drupal even tried to offer a database API so plugin developers
> wouldn't touch SQL directly, but too many ignored it.

Yeah, that's a classic problem. The reason why I raise the particular
problem was, I hoped situations were better with MediaWiki since it
has been used for PostgreSQL official site. But the truth is even
MediaWiki is not an exception.

My colleague has been working on making the latest version of WordPress
work with PostgreSQL (there used be a PostgreSQL plugin but it has not
been maintained and does not work with the latest version of
WordPress). I imagine there are someone who are attacking the classic
problem and I wonder as PostgreSQL community, what we can do for this.

This may not be the brightest idea but what about starting with
creating wiki page listing such that works? This will help users who
want to use PostgreSQL with WordPress, MediaWikim Drupal etc. (and
many plugins).

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp


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Re: [GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[John R Pierce]

On 7/18/2016 9:14 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

I found following comment for using PostgreSQL with MediaWiki:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility#Database

"Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
production use at this point."

This is a sad and disappointed statement for us. Should we help
MediaWiki community to enhance this?


the classic problem with any of these sorts of open source projects, 
while you can convert the core system to postgres, there's a huge 
community of contributed plugins, and many of these authors have zero 
interest in anything but their default database, mysql/mariadb.   I ran 
into this with Drupal, Wordpress, a couple different forum projects.
Drupal even tried to offer a database API so plugin developers wouldn't 
touch SQL directly, but too many ignored it.




--
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[GENERAL] MediaWiki + PostgreSQL is not ready for production?

[Tatsuo Ishii]

I found following comment for using PostgreSQL with MediaWiki:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility#Database

"Anything other than MySQL or MariaDB is not recommended for
production use at this point."

This is a sad and disappointed statement for us. Should we help
MediaWiki community to enhance this?

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp


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