Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
Petr, Just user-tested SYSTEM_ROWS and SYSTEM_TIME. They work as expected. Useful! -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 08/06/2015 01:10 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: Given, user-stated probability of accessing a block of P and N total blocks, there are a few ways to implement block sampling. 1. Test P for each block individually. This gives a range of possible results, with 0 blocks being possible outcome, though decreasing in probability as P increases for fixed N. This is the same way BERNOULLI works, we just do it for blocks rather than rows. 2. We calculate P/N at start of scan and deliver this number blocks by random selection from N available blocks. At present we do (1), exactly as documented. (2) is slightly harder since we'd need to track which blocks have been selected already so we can use a random selection with no replacement algorithm. On a table with uneven distribution of rows this would still return a variable sample size, so it didn't seem worth changing. Aha, thanks! So, seems like this is just a doc issue? That is, we just need to document that using SYSTEM on very small sample sizes may return unexpected numbers of results ... and maybe also how the algorithm actually works. I agree that implementing (2) makes more sense as an additional algorithm for someone to write in the future. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
Petr Jelinek wrote: On 2015-08-06 22:25, Josh Berkus wrote: If there is no appropriate place, I'll just write a blog. There is a blog post on 2ndQ blog page which tries to describe the sampling methods visually, not sure if it's more obvious from that or not. It's somewhat broken on planet though (only title there). http://blog.2ndquadrant.com/tablesample-in-postgresql-9-5/ -- Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 6 August 2015 at 20:14, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: This table has around 185 rows per page. As the sample size goes up, the number times I get zero rows goes down, but those results seem to still include data pages with zero rows. For example, here's a series of results from a 0.04 sample against the million-row table. 370 370 370 555 555 185 0 925 Since this is a synthetic table I just generated, it contains almost exactly 185 rows per data page for every data page. So on a 0.04% sample, the variation between 370 rows and 555 rows (whether we have 2 or 3 data pages) is expected, since 0.04% of 5406 data pages is 2.16 pages. The results of 0, 185 and 925 are not. It really seems like SYSTEM is treating 0.04% as a maximum, but taking a random number of data pages somewhere around that maximum, using math which can choose numbers of pages far outside of the % requested by the user, and which includes 0. Speaking from a user perspective, SYSTEM seems broken to me. I can't imagine using it for anything with a that degree of variation in the number of results returned, especially if it's possible to return zero rows from a populated table. The docs say... The SYSTEM method does block-level sampling with each block having the specified chance of being selected; all rows in each selected block are returned. SQLStandard suggests the parameter value should be an integer, which would limit it to 1% sample. Allowing a non-integer sample size is a PostgreSQL extension. There is no guidance on how to implement SYSTEM in the standard. Given, user-stated probability of accessing a block of P and N total blocks, there are a few ways to implement block sampling. 1. Test P for each block individually. This gives a range of possible results, with 0 blocks being possible outcome, though decreasing in probability as P increases for fixed N. This is the same way BERNOULLI works, we just do it for blocks rather than rows. 2. We calculate P/N at start of scan and deliver this number blocks by random selection from N available blocks. At present we do (1), exactly as documented. (2) is slightly harder since we'd need to track which blocks have been selected already so we can use a random selection with no replacement algorithm. On a table with uneven distribution of rows this would still return a variable sample size, so it didn't seem worth changing. This is exactly why TABLESAMPLE was designed to allow you to write your own sampling algorithm, so you can do it anyway you want. The context here is that SELECT count(*) from the test table takes 10ms. The intended use case for this feature is against tables that would give some kind of performance problem, which isn't the case here. On a table 100x larger, the sample is 1000 +/- 40, which seems more acceptable. The variability of Bernoulli is much less, but then it is roughly 100x slower. On a 1TB table, SYSTEM is going to be your only choice. -- Simon Riggshttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ http://www.2ndquadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training Services
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 08/06/2015 01:14 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: On 08/06/2015 01:10 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: Given, user-stated probability of accessing a block of P and N total blocks, there are a few ways to implement block sampling. 1. Test P for each block individually. This gives a range of possible results, with 0 blocks being possible outcome, though decreasing in probability as P increases for fixed N. This is the same way BERNOULLI works, we just do it for blocks rather than rows. 2. We calculate P/N at start of scan and deliver this number blocks by random selection from N available blocks. At present we do (1), exactly as documented. (2) is slightly harder since we'd need to track which blocks have been selected already so we can use a random selection with no replacement algorithm. On a table with uneven distribution of rows this would still return a variable sample size, so it didn't seem worth changing. Aha, thanks! So, seems like this is just a doc issue? That is, we just need to document that using SYSTEM on very small sample sizes may return unexpected numbers of results ... and maybe also how the algorithm actually works. Following up on this ... where is TABLESAMPLE documented other than in the SELECT command? Doc search on the website is having issues right now. I'm happy to write a doc patch. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 6 August 2015 at 21:14, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: On 08/06/2015 01:10 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: Given, user-stated probability of accessing a block of P and N total blocks, there are a few ways to implement block sampling. 1. Test P for each block individually. This gives a range of possible results, with 0 blocks being possible outcome, though decreasing in probability as P increases for fixed N. This is the same way BERNOULLI works, we just do it for blocks rather than rows. 2. We calculate P/N at start of scan and deliver this number blocks by random selection from N available blocks. (My mistake, that would be P*N) At present we do (1), exactly as documented. (2) is slightly harder since we'd need to track which blocks have been selected already so we can use a random selection with no replacement algorithm. On a table with uneven distribution of rows this would still return a variable sample size, so it didn't seem worth changing. Aha, thanks! So, seems like this is just a doc issue? That is, we just need to document that using SYSTEM on very small sample sizes may return unexpected numbers of results ... and maybe also how the algorithm actually works. For me, the docs seem exactly correct. The mathematical implications of that just aren't recorded explicitly. I will try to reword or add something to make it clear that this can return a variable number of blocks and thus produces a result with greater variability in the number of rows returned. It's documented on the SELECT page only; plus there is a whole new section on writing tablesample functions. -- Simon Riggshttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ http://www.2ndquadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training Services
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 2015-08-06 22:25, Josh Berkus wrote: On 08/06/2015 01:19 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: For me, the docs seem exactly correct. The mathematical implications of that just aren't recorded explicitly. Well, for the SELECT page, all we need is the following (one changed sentence): The SYSTEM method is significantly faster than the BERNOULLI method when small sampling percentages are specified, but it may return a less-random sample of the table as a result of clustering effects, and may return a highly variable number of results for very small sample sizes. BTW this was one of the motivations for making tsm_system_rows contrib module, that one will give you exact number of tuples while still doing page level sampling. But since it does linear probing it's only useful if you want those really small amounts of tuples because it will always do random I/O even if you are scanning large part of the table. I will try to reword or add something to make it clear that this can return a variable number of blocks and thus produces a result with greater variability in the number of rows returned. It's documented on the SELECT page only; plus there is a whole new section on writing tablesample functions. Seems like it would be nice to have more detailed user docs somewhere which explain the sampling algos we have, especially if we get more in the future. Not sure where would be appropriate for that, though. If there is no appropriate place, I'll just write a blog. There is a blog post on 2ndQ blog page which tries to describe the sampling methods visually, not sure if it's more obvious from that or not. It's somewhat broken on planet though (only title there). -- Petr Jelinek http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 08/06/2015 12:45 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Simon Riggs si...@2ndquadrant.com writes: On 6 August 2015 at 20:14, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: Speaking from a user perspective, SYSTEM seems broken to me. I can't imagine using it for anything with a that degree of variation in the number of results returned, especially if it's possible to return zero rows from a populated table. Please bear in mind you have requested a very small random sample of blocks. Indeed. My expectation about it is that you'd get the requested number of rows *on average* over many tries (which is pretty much what Josh's results show). Since what SYSTEM actually returns must be a multiple of the number of rows per page, if you make a request that's less than that number of rows, you must get zero rows some of the time. Otherwise the sampling logic is cheating. Except that I'm getting zero results when requesting rows which equate to 2-3 pages, not just less than one page. Please do read the full bug report. And why should the *number* of pages sampled be random? That's not what the documentation says that SYSTEM does. But it's pretty clearly what's happening; this table has exactly 185 rows per page on every page. So the only reason for there to be a variation in the number of rows returned is that SYSTEM is varying the number of pages sampled. On testing, the zero results don't go away until the number of pages requested goes up to 5 (0.095). So that suggests that SYSTEM is varying the number of pages retrieved by +/- 4. Why? What purpose does that serve? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
Simon Riggs si...@2ndquadrant.com writes: On 6 August 2015 at 20:14, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: Speaking from a user perspective, SYSTEM seems broken to me. I can't imagine using it for anything with a that degree of variation in the number of results returned, especially if it's possible to return zero rows from a populated table. Please bear in mind you have requested a very small random sample of blocks. Indeed. My expectation about it is that you'd get the requested number of rows *on average* over many tries (which is pretty much what Josh's results show). Since what SYSTEM actually returns must be a multiple of the number of rows per page, if you make a request that's less than that number of rows, you must get zero rows some of the time. Otherwise the sampling logic is cheating. I do *not* think that we should force the sample to contain at least one page, which is the only way that we could satisfy the complaint as stated. Perhaps we need to adjust the documentation to make it clearer that block-level sampling is not the thing to use if you want a sample that doesn't amount to a reasonable number of blocks. But I see absolutely no evidence here that the sampling isn't behaving exactly as expected. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 2015-08-06 22:17, Josh Berkus wrote: On 08/06/2015 01:14 PM, Josh Berkus wrote: On 08/06/2015 01:10 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: Given, user-stated probability of accessing a block of P and N total blocks, there are a few ways to implement block sampling. 1. Test P for each block individually. This gives a range of possible results, with 0 blocks being possible outcome, though decreasing in probability as P increases for fixed N. This is the same way BERNOULLI works, we just do it for blocks rather than rows. 2. We calculate P/N at start of scan and deliver this number blocks by random selection from N available blocks. At present we do (1), exactly as documented. (2) is slightly harder since we'd need to track which blocks have been selected already so we can use a random selection with no replacement algorithm. On a table with uneven distribution of rows this would still return a variable sample size, so it didn't seem worth changing. Aha, thanks! So, seems like this is just a doc issue? That is, we just need to document that using SYSTEM on very small sample sizes may return unexpected numbers of results ... and maybe also how the algorithm actually works. Yes, it's expected behavior on very small sample size so doc patch seems best fix. Following up on this ... where is TABLESAMPLE documented other than in the SELECT command? Doc search on the website is having issues right now. I'm happy to write a doc patch. The user documentation is only in SELECT page, the rest is API docs. -- Petr Jelinek http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 08/06/2015 01:19 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: On 6 August 2015 at 21:14, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com mailto:j...@agliodbs.com wrote: On 08/06/2015 01:10 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: Given, user-stated probability of accessing a block of P and N total blocks, there are a few ways to implement block sampling. 1. Test P for each block individually. This gives a range of possible results, with 0 blocks being possible outcome, though decreasing in probability as P increases for fixed N. This is the same way BERNOULLI works, we just do it for blocks rather than rows. 2. We calculate P/N at start of scan and deliver this number blocks by random selection from N available blocks. (My mistake, that would be P*N) At present we do (1), exactly as documented. (2) is slightly harder since we'd need to track which blocks have been selected already so we can use a random selection with no replacement algorithm. On a table with uneven distribution of rows this would still return a variable sample size, so it didn't seem worth changing. Aha, thanks! So, seems like this is just a doc issue? That is, we just need to document that using SYSTEM on very small sample sizes may return unexpected numbers of results ... and maybe also how the algorithm actually works. For me, the docs seem exactly correct. The mathematical implications of that just aren't recorded explicitly. Well, for the SELECT page, all we need is the following (one changed sentence): The SYSTEM method is significantly faster than the BERNOULLI method when small sampling percentages are specified, but it may return a less-random sample of the table as a result of clustering effects, and may return a highly variable number of results for very small sample sizes. I will try to reword or add something to make it clear that this can return a variable number of blocks and thus produces a result with greater variability in the number of rows returned. It's documented on the SELECT page only; plus there is a whole new section on writing tablesample functions. Seems like it would be nice to have more detailed user docs somewhere which explain the sampling algos we have, especially if we get more in the future. Not sure where would be appropriate for that, though. If there is no appropriate place, I'll just write a blog. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
On 6 August 2015 at 20:14, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: The results of 0, 185 and 925 are not. It really seems like SYSTEM is treating 0.04% as a maximum, but taking a random number of data pages somewhere around that maximum, using math which can choose numbers of pages far outside of the % requested by the user, and which includes 0. Thanks for the report, I'll look at this now. Speaking from a user perspective, SYSTEM seems broken to me. I can't imagine using it for anything with a that degree of variation in the number of results returned, especially if it's possible to return zero rows from a populated table. Please bear in mind you have requested a very small random sample of blocks. -- Simon Riggshttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ http://www.2ndquadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training Services
[HACKERS] Bug? Small samples in TABLESAMPLE SYSTEM returns zero rows
Version: 9.5alpha2 Issue: when requesting small samples, SYSTEM often returns zero rows, and sometimes returns unexpected numbers of rows. Example: create table thous ( id int, val text ); insert into thous select i, i::text || '-val' from generate_series(1,10) as gs(i); analyze; This is a 100,000 row table, so a 0.01% sample should be 10 rows. Since 10 rows is far less than what's on one data page, the documentation suggests that I should get 1 data page worth of rows. However: postgres=# select * from thous tablesample system ( 0.01 ); id | val +- (0 rows) Time: 0.636 ms ... this query consistently returns 0 rows, in 20 runs. Ok,let's try a million-row table, which is the example we have in the docs. postgres=# select * from mil tablesample system ( 0.01 ); id | val +- (0 rows) Hmmm? On testing, the query against the million-row table returns 0 rows around 50% of the time. This table has around 185 rows per page. As the sample size goes up, the number times I get zero rows goes down, but those results seem to still include data pages with zero rows. For example, here's a series of results from a 0.04 sample against the million-row table. 370 370 370 555 555 185 0 925 Since this is a synthetic table I just generated, it contains almost exactly 185 rows per data page for every data page. So on a 0.04% sample, the variation between 370 rows and 555 rows (whether we have 2 or 3 data pages) is expected, since 0.04% of 5406 data pages is 2.16 pages. The results of 0, 185 and 925 are not. It really seems like SYSTEM is treating 0.04% as a maximum, but taking a random number of data pages somewhere around that maximum, using math which can choose numbers of pages far outside of the % requested by the user, and which includes 0. Speaking from a user perspective, SYSTEM seems broken to me. I can't imagine using it for anything with a that degree of variation in the number of results returned, especially if it's possible to return zero rows from a populated table. BERNOULLI works as expected. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
