Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Tom Lane wrote: Seems like that stuff should be in CVS somewhere ... if only so someone else can pick up the ball if you get run over by a truck :-(. My wife appreciates the sentiment :-). As it stands now, better documentation distributed in the source RPM would help greatly. Everything necessary to do the build and maintain the package is in the source RPM as it stands now -- evidenced by the Linux distributors being able to take our source RPM, massage it to fit their particular system, and run with it. And I have a scad of history available in specfile form If it's just a small amount of code, I don't see what the harm would be in including it in the regular distro, though we should talk about just where it should go. If it's a large amount of code then perhaps a separate CVS project would be better, so that people who have no use for it don't end up pulling/downloading it. Not counting the JDBC jars, it's a hundred K or so uncompressed. The spec file is around 30k -- a small amount of code. contrib/rpm-dist? -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
RE: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Rachit Siamwalla wrote: 1. `pidof` should be `pidof -s` (2 instances) 2. restart) should be stop; sleep x; start ideally, stop should actually wait till postgres fully stops. The sleep is just a temporary fix. Perhaps a naive question, but why not use the pg_ctl for starting and stopping? It has a -w option to have it wait for the stop/start/restart to complete. -rocco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Lamar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As to why all these files aren't part of the source tree, well, unless there was a large cry for it to happen, I don't believe it should. PostgreSQL is very platform-agnostic -- and I like that. Including the RPM stuff as part of the Official Tarball (TM) would, IMHO, slant that agnostic stance in a negative way. Seems like that stuff should be in CVS somewhere ... if only so someone else can pick up the ball if you get run over by a truck :-(. If it's just a small amount of code, I don't see what the harm would be in including it in the regular distro, though we should talk about just where it should go. If it's a large amount of code then perhaps a separate CVS project would be better, so that people who have no use for it don't end up pulling/downloading it. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Lamar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: contrib/rpm-dist? Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution. So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for putting it in the main tree. Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Tom Lane wrote: Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution. So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for putting it in the main tree. Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. Let's see where the rest of core and hackers weighs in -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Lamar Owen writes: contrib/rpm-dist? A separate CVS module sounds like a better idea to me. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Lamar Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: contrib/rpm-dist? Contrib was my first thought also --- but on second thought, the RPM packaging support is hardly contrib-grade material. For a large proportion of our users it's a critical part of the distribution. So, if we are going to have it in the CVS tree at all, I'd vote for putting it in the main tree. Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. It is platform-specific, which would seem to vote for /contrib. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: Rachit Siamwalla [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). Lamar Owen and I. Is the current snapshot available? I have submitted fixes twice now for what I am fairly sure is a bug in the init script. At least one of the posts was the shortly after lamar posted the RC3 RPM. Yet the bug remained. This is not a complaint -- you guys have put alot of effort into the RPMs and they are very solid IMHO. But I would like the chance to look at the RPMM as it stands sometime before 7.1, as I have to customize the RPM yet again to distribute a working init script to our servers. Have you thought about a CVS store some place for the RPM files? -- Karl ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps src/rpm-tools/ or some such name. It is platform-specific, which would seem to vote for /contrib. Huh? By that logic, all of src/makefiles/, src/template/, and src/backend/port/, not to mention large chunks of the configure mechanism, belong in contrib. Shall we rip out all BSD support and move it to contrib? contrib has never been about platform dependency in my mind; it's about whether we consider something part of the project mainstream (in terms of code quality and our willingness to support it). RPM support isn't going away, and I'm willing to call it mainstream ... regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Lamar Owen wrote: Tom Lane wrote: Seems like that stuff should be in CVS somewhere ... if only so someone else can pick up the ball if you get run over by a truck :-(. My wife appreciates the sentiment :-). As it stands now, better documentation distributed in the source RPM would help greatly. Everything necessary to do the build and maintain the package is in the source RPM as it stands now -- evidenced by the Linux distributors being able to take our source RPM, massage it to fit their particular system, and run with it. And I have a scad of history available in specfile form If it's just a small amount of code, I don't see what the harm would be in including it in the regular distro, though we should talk about just where it should go. If it's a large amount of code then perhaps a separate CVS project would be better, so that people who have no use for it don't end up pulling/downloading it. Not counting the JDBC jars, it's a hundred K or so uncompressed. The spec file is around 30k -- a small amount of code. contrib/rpm-dist? Seems to work. But I would prefer to look at how ither packaging schemes work and come up with something that might be consistent and useful across the board. For starters, I'd make contrib/package/ Then make an rpm subdirectory. Also a pkg directory for system that use pkgmk/pkginfo/pkgadd/pkgrm. If there's a way to may debain packages paly the game, put them in as well. Then, if someaone is packages for a variety of systems, there is alt least the possibility of some small amount of consistency. Extending things, you could have contrib/package/rpm/redhat for redhat-specific stuff. contrib/package/rpm/mandrake for mandrafke stuff. You get the idea. At that point, I could even imagine contrib/mkpackage script that di som OS detection, and built wahtever you wanted. That may be a little far off, but I think there is an important nuggent in here. Tarballs are great for developers, but they are not that great for system administrators with large installed bases. PostgreSQL builds are great for the portability. The next logical step might in fact be to extend some of that consistency to the package creation arena. -- Karl ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Karl DeBisschop writes: PostgreSQL builds are great for the portability. The next logical step might in fact be to extend some of that consistency to the package creation arena. This would have been cool in 1996. We would have evolved a large number of different packages along with the build system. But it didn't happen this way and now most packages are sufficiently contorted in a number of ways because of vendor requirements, different ideas of how an operating system is supposed to work, self-inflicted incompatibilities, and a number of other reasons, including not least importantly the desire to have control over what ships in your system. All valid reasons, of course. If we can work at, and succeed at, resolving most of these oddities, then tracking packages in the source tree might prove worthwhile. But as long as we're still required to keep track what vendor has 'chkconfig' or what version of what distribution has broken CFLAGS, to list some trivial things, as long as the packages need to track anything but the development of PostgreSQL itself, this undertaking is going to become a problem. What would be worthwhile is setting up another cvs module so packages can be developed and released at their own pace. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Karl DeBisschop wrote: Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: Rachit Siamwalla [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). Lamar Owen and I. Is the current snapshot available? The current snapshot is the 7.1-1 release as of this time. I have submitted fixes twice now for what I am fairly sure is a bug in the init script. At least one of the posts was the shortly after lamar posted the RC3 RPM. Yet the bug remained. I thought I integrated that one, but I must not have. My apologies. This is not a complaint -- you guys have put alot of effort into the RPMs and they are very solid IMHO. But I would like the chance to look at the RPMM as it stands sometime before 7.1, as I have to customize the RPM yet again to distribute a working init script to our servers. Mail me the initscript as fixed. Put a [HACKERS] in the usbject so it goes to the right folder. The extant 7.1-1 RPMset is the last build I have made. Have you thought about a CVS store some place for the RPM files? Yes. Discussion currently underway in HACKERS. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Peter Eisentraut wrote: What would be worthwhile is setting up another cvs module so packages can be developed and released at their own pace. This is an _excellent_ point, and one I had thought of before but had forgotten. FWIW, I have a project set up at greatbridge.org -- I just have to get myself in gear and get it done. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
[HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly. I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt. I will do all those now for 7.1.1. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Please,
apply a little patch:
--- src/test/locale/test-ctype.cTue Sep 1 08:40:33 1998
+++ /u/megera/app/locale/test/test-ctype.c Fri Sep 15 19:12:06 2000
@@ -39,7 +39,7 @@
void
describe_char(int c)
{
- charcp = c,
+ unsigned char cp = c,
up = toupper(c),
lo = tolower(c);
Regards,
Oleg
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly.
I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt.
I will do all those now for 7.1.1.
Regards,
Oleg
_
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
OK, Oleg, I am applying this on your word only. I don't understand its
purpose, but you sent it with a 7.1.1 subject so I assume you want it in
there. This is not a critical area of our code.
Please,
apply a little patch:
--- src/test/locale/test-ctype.cTue Sep 1 08:40:33 1998
+++ /u/megera/app/locale/test/test-ctype.c Fri Sep 15 19:12:06 2000
@@ -39,7 +39,7 @@
void
describe_char(int c)
{
- charcp = c,
+ unsigned char cp = c,
up = toupper(c),
lo = tolower(c);
Regards,
Oleg
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly.
I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt.
I will do all those now for 7.1.1.
Regards,
Oleg
_
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
--
Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
RE: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were branching 7.1.1) Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). -rchit -Original Message- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:16 AM To: PostgreSQL-development Subject: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1 I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly. I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt. I will do all those now for 7.1.1. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Not sure on their status. Are they listed on the outstanding patches page at the bottom of the developers page? Probably too late for 7.1.1 now. [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were branching 7.1.1) Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). -rchit -Original Message- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:16 AM To: PostgreSQL-development Subject: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1 I am starting to package 7.1.1, and I see I did not brand 7.1 properly. I forgot the date in the HISTORY file, and didn't update register.txt. I will do all those now for 7.1.1. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Rachit Siamwalla [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). Lamar Owen and I. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Rachit Siamwalla wrote: oh btw, i completely forgot to mention the minor fixes to the linux init scripts i mentioned earlier (about 2 weeks ago) for things that perhaps should be in the 7.1.1 release. (someone sent out a mail that they were branching 7.1.1) Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). That would be me. Before building and releasing 7.1.1 RPMs I will be reviewing the various bugs and changes planned for the 7.1.1 RPM. As to why the RPM init script is different from the one packaged in the main source tree -- I can make assumptions in the RPM set that the version in the source tree cannot. As to how the RPMs are built -- to answer that question sanely requires me to know how much experience you have with the whole RPM paradigm. 'How is the RPM built?' is a multifaceted question. The obvious simple answer is that I maintain: 1.) A set of patches to make certain portions of the source tree 'behave' in the different environment of the RPMset; 2.) The initscript; 3.) Any other ancilliary scripts and files; 4.) A README.rpm-dist document that tries to adequately document both the differences between the RPM build and the WHY of the differences, as well as useful RPM environment operations (like, using syslog, upgrading, getting postmaster to start at OS boot, etc); 5.) The spec file that throws it all together. This is not a trivial undertaking in a package of this size. I then download and build on as many different canonical distributions as I can -- currently I am able to build on Red Hat 6.2, 7.0, and 7.1 on my personal hardware. Occasionally I receive opportunity from certain commercial enterprises such as Great Bridge and PostgreSQL Inc to build on other distributions. I test the build by installing the resulting packages and running the regression tests. Once the build passes these tests, I upload to the postgresql.org ftp server and make a release announcement. I am also responsible for maintaining the RPM download area on the ftp site. You'll notice I said 'canonical' distributions above. That simply means that the machine is as stock 'out of the box' as practical -- that is, everything (except select few programs) on these boxen are installed by RPM; only official Red Hat released RPMs are used (except in unusual circumstances involving software that will not alter the build -- for example, installing a newer non-RedHat version of the Dia diagramming package is OK -- installing Python 2.1 on the box that has Python 1.5.2 installed is not, as that alters the PostgreSQL build). The RPM as uploaded is built to as close to out-of-the-box pristine as is possible. Only the standard released 'official to that release' compiler is used -- and only the standard official kernel is used as well. For a time I built on Mandrake for RedHat consumption -- no more. Nonstandard RPM building systems are worse than useless. Which is not to say that Mandrake is useless! By no means is Mandrake useless -- unless you are building Red Hat RPMs -- and Red Hat is useless if you're trying to build Mandrake or SuSE RPMs, for that matter. But I would be foolish to use 'Lamar Owen's Super Special RPM Blend Distro 0.1.2' to build for public consumption! :-) I _do_ attempt to make the _source_ RPM compatible with as many distributions as possible -- however, since I have limited resources (as a volunteer RPM maintainer) I am limited as to the amount of testing said build will get on other distributions, architectures, or systems. And, while I understand people's desire to immediately upgrade to the newest version, realize that I do this as a side interest -- I have a regular, full-time job as a broadcast engineer/webmaster/sysadmin/Technical Director which occasionally prevents me from making timely RPM releases. This happened during the early part of the 7.1 beta cycle -- but I believe I was pretty much on the ball for the Release Candidates and the final release. I am working towards a more open RPM distribution -- I would dearly love to more fully document the process and put everything into CVS -- once I figure out how I want to represent things such as the spec file in a CVS form. It makes no sense to maintain a changelog, for instance, in the spec file in CVS when CVS does a better job of changelogs -- I will need to write a tool to generate a real spec file from a CVS spec-source file that would add version numbers, changelog entries, etc to the result before building the RPM. IOW, I need to rethink the process -- and then go through the motions of putting my long RPM history into CVS one version at a time so that version history information isn't lost. As to why
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote: Rachit Siamwalla [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also i never got a response on who actually packages those linux init scripts that appear in the RPM but not on the pgsql cvs tree. (i am also curious on why it is different, and how the RPM is built). Lamar Owen and I. Egads! I forgot to mention Trond! My apologies! (I'm being serious...) Trond, of Red Hat; Reinhard Max, of SuSE; and Thomas Lockhart, of PostgreSQL Inc (:-)) have all been major contributors to the RPM distribution. Karl DeBisschop, Mike Mascari, and many others have provided fixes and ideas as well. Sorry guys -- I got caught up in the process and forgot the people! :-( -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Thanks a lot for your total and complete description of the process. (i should have checked out the sprm first before asking). I empathize with what you said about packaging not being a simple task, i have been through the agony. About putting your stuff into the postgres tree, i believe it would be a good thing other than bad to include it in pgsq. It can be put into the contrib directory (because it isn't part of the core portable stuff). This solution was done for the portable openssh cvs tree. not only redhat packaging stuff was included, but the solaris pkg mechanism was also in there (and i also believe there were some others). It usually isn't a lot of files (ie. the spec file and maybe the initscript). Of course its up to the gods of the pgsql tree what they want to do with it, so i'm just going to raise this suggestion and shut up. anyways, getting back to the what brought me to ask about this, can you add the fixes to these two small problems in your initscripts? 1. `pidof` should be `pidof -s` (2 instances) 2. restart) should be stop; sleep x; start ideally, stop should actually wait till postgres fully stops. The sleep is just a temporary fix. I have a more thorough email i sent earlier, i can resend it to you if you want. -rchit ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] Packaging 7.1.1
Rachit Siamwalla wrote: Thanks a lot for your total and complete description of the process. (i should have checked out the sprm first before asking). I empathize with what you said about packaging not being a simple task, i have been through the agony. Empathize is appropriate if you've been there. But, it's better than going six months to a year for a newer RPM -- the release lag was one ofthe two triggers that caused me to go do this -- the other was the upgrading issue. I won't say any more about that right now --too tired. About putting your stuff into the postgres tree, i believe it would be a good thing other than bad to include it in pgsq. It can be put into the contrib directory (because it isn't part of the core portable stuff). This We'll see what transpires. I have a more thorough email i sent earlier, i can resend it to you if you want. Hmmm.. lessee... I have Bruce's reply, which includes your message in its entirety, I think. But, just to be safe, resend directly to me, and add the [HACKERS] part to the subject (so it will go to the correct mail folder, otherwise I might miss it). I have a list of messages in an 'RPMS for 7.1' subfolder of my mail folder 'Postgres' that I work through for each release. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
