Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion. MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers". The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database toolset. In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left byMS Access. However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings ofAccess, due to MS advertising and sales efforts. It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of files. Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future. I think that "having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that point. However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future. Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table header. If we do a good job of providingGUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers. It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world. Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its reliability. They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQLServer or Oracle. If we are ready to givea solutionto them...greatsorry MS, but they seem to "like us better".If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision. At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later. Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools" available for it. Add to this list "end users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website serversand well...there's your tidal wave! Ready or notthe wave is directly behind ustime to "paddle" for all we're worth! Sincerely, Arthur Baldwin
Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Im afraid that I dont hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the defacto standard toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I dont agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to and sadly often expect poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PCs and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM To: PostGreSQL Hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion. MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and ease of use for non-programmers. The Relationships View window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database toolset. In reality PostGreSQL is in a strong position to fill the reliability void left byMS Access. However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings ofAccess, due to MS advertising and sales efforts. It seems clear to me that the best way to promote the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more ease of use GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of files. Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future. I think that having a Windows version will not be a significant issue at that point. However, GUI based ease of use features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future. Using a browser to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the Relationships View window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly drawn with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple right click on the Table header. If we do a good job of providingGUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the defacto standard toolset for all website servers. It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, like it or not, and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world. Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to realize the MS snow job they've been given about its reliability. They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQLServer or Oracle. If we are ready to givea solutionto them...greatsorry MS, but they seem to like us better.If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision. At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later. Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the best database tools available for it. Add to this list end users who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website serversand well...there's your tidal wave! Ready or notthe wave is directly behind ustime to paddle for all we're worth! Sincerely, Arthur Baldwin
Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Ahh and let us not forget that postgresql runs beautifully (so far as I can tell) under Mac OS X, an operating system whose user base demands easy-to-use GUI software. Pgaccess is a different story however-- I haven't gotten it to work yet because tcl/tk is not quite working... Haven't had any time to look at it yet. Best regards, Michael Ditto On 7/9/02 4:14 PM, Eric Redmond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I¹m afraid that I don¹t hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the ³defacto standard² toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I don¹t agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to and sadly often expect poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PC¹s and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM To: PostGreSQL Hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion. MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and ease of use for non-programmers. The Relationships View window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database toolset. In reality PostGreSQL is in a strong position to fill the reliability void left by MS Access. However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales efforts. It seems clear to me that the best way to promote the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more ease of use GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of files. Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future. I think that having a Windows version will not be a significant issue at that point. However, GUI based ease of use features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future. Using a browser to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the Relationships View window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly drawn with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple right click on the Table header. If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the defacto standard toolset for all website servers. It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, like it or not, and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world. Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to realize the MS snow job they've been given about its reliability. They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle. If we are ready to give a solution to them...greatsorry MS, but they seem to like us better. If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision. At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later. Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the best database tools available for it. Add to this list end users who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website serversand well...there's your tidal wave! Ready or notthe wave is directly behind ustime to paddle for all we're worth! Sincerely, Arthur Baldwin ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Dear Eric, Thanks for your input! I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of PostGreSQL. But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their ownwebsite via their DSL line. Another few reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised" limitations. Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server. At least not at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit painful. "Necessary" because of the improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linuxexpertise and because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru and many others since. Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity. I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to Linux. I don't believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development! If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as well...through ignorance and apathy. I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda. Am I sure about this? Yes! Look at the intense interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop. Do you think they will abandon their investment? I don't think so. Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real Time" versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the US! (Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic websitehope you can read Chinese!) Redsonic's toolsetwill beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt. The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any version of WinCE. And Redsonic isn't the only "Real Time" competitor. There are many, many others...and a steady flow of new ones. If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you". In other words, "send back your PC to the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms. Switching to Linux is currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS plan works. "A word to the wise is sufficient". And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the switch. Sincerely, Arthur Baldwin Im afraid that I dont hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the defacto standard toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I dont agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to and sadly often expect poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PCs and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary. Eric -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PMTo: PostGreSQL HackersSubject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion. MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers". The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful f
Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Yeah, sure. Whatever. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35 PM To: PostGreSQL Hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access Dear Eric, Thanks for your input! I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of PostGreSQL. But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their ownwebsite via their DSL line. Another few reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to less than advertised limitations. Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server. At least not at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a necessary step, albeit painful. Necessary because of the improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linuxexpertise and because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru and many others since. Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity. I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to Linux. I don't believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development! If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as well...through ignorance and apathy. I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the Fritz chip that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda. Am I sure about this? Yes! Look at the intense interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop. Do you think they will abandon their investment? I don't think so. Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible hard Real Time versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the US! (Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic websitehope you can read Chinese!) Redsonic's toolsetwill beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt. The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any version of WinCE. And Redsonic isn't the only Real Time competitor. There are many, many others...and a steady flow of new ones. If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you. In other words, send back your PC to the store...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms. Switching to Linux is currently a pain to be sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS plan works. A word to the wise is sufficient. And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the switch. Sincerely, Arthur Baldwin Im afraid that I dont hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the defacto standard toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I dont agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to and sadly often expect poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PCs and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM To: PostGreSQL Hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion. MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and ease of use for non-programmers. The Relationships View window, for example, is one
Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Just A note on Linux. I consider Linux on the same level as Windows. I have been able to crash it (kernel 2.4.18) just as well and the lib C API is nowhere near complete or fault tolerant to any commercial OS. For the moment nothing beats SCO Openserver/Unixware stability on PC. These are OS worth paying for. - Original Message - From: Eric Redmond To: 'PostGreSQL Hackers' Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access Yeah, sure. Whatever. Eric -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35 PMTo: PostGreSQL HackersSubject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access Dear Eric, Thanks for your input! I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of PostGreSQL. But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their ownwebsite via their DSL line. Another few reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised" limitations. Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server. At least not at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit painful. "Necessary" because of the improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linuxexpertise and because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru and many others since. Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity. I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to Linux. I don't believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development! If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as well...through ignorance and apathy. I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda. Am I sure about this? Yes! Look at the intense interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop. Do you think they will abandon their investment? I don't think so. Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real Time" versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the US! (Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic websitehope you can read Chinese!) Redsonic's toolsetwill beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt. The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any version of WinCE. And Redsonic isn't the only "Real Time" competitor. There are many, many others...and a steady flow of new ones. If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you". In other words, "send back your PC to the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms. Switching to Linux is currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS plan works. "A word to the wise is sufficient". And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the switch. Sincerely, Arthur Baldwin Im afraid that I dont hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the defacto standard toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I dont agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux use
Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Hehehe - try FreeBSD for stability over Linux as well :) Chris -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Nicolas BazinSent: Wednesday, 10 July 2002 9:55 AMTo: Eric Redmond; 'PostGreSQL Hackers'Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access Just A note on Linux. I consider Linux on the same level as Windows. I have been able to crash it (kernel 2.4.18) just as well and the lib C API is nowhere near complete or fault tolerant to any commercial OS. For the moment nothing beats SCO Openserver/Unixware stability on PC. These are OS worth paying for.
