Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Le 12 août 08 à 18:41, Bruce Momjian a écrit : Are you proposing that we should introduce our own packaging system for such add-on components? Like CP(g)AN (which has been proposed before..)? Yes, pretty much. I imagine some kind of web interface or Java app (did I just say that?) that lists all plugins and when you choose one it downloads an object file appropriate for your operating system plus SQL scripts and somehow automatically installs them in the desired database. That is the kind of capability we need to really advance things. We would still allow source installs but for people wanting to try things out, I see no other alternative, and try things out == adoption. What is wrong with my proposal here: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-07/msg01098.php http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-07/msg01116.php I tried to address binary distribution, PostgreSQL stamped packages, distributions packaging compliance (deb and rpm and etc), and ease of use at user level (a package embeds .so file(s) with any SQL you need). The proposal mention SQL level interface (create/drop/install package) and command-line tools to fetch from internet, build with pgxs and install the prepared package into the given database. The binary distribution is left to people in charge in my proposal, they are debian packagers, RPM ones like Devrim, or Win32 Installer team. Please tell me how far from a workable proposal I am... Regards, - -- dim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkinRGoACgkQlBXRlnbh1bkTOgCfT7xerFH6i5Q2g35djcYoYGLI 7bMAn2/WqGyzVwf/8KAacpo9QCuYxv+G =lZqK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
On Aug 12, 2008, at 2:26 AM, Dave Page wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, ideally, if we do a plug-in system, I think we need some way to have these plugins be very easily installed, perhaps by choosing object files pre-compile by the build farm for each operating system. Hmm, that idea sounds remarkably familiar thinks back to a meeting in NJ about 2 years ago ...and one at Pervasive even before that... -- Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, ideally, if we do a plug-in system, I think we need some way to have these plugins be very easily installed, perhaps by choosing object files pre-compile by the build farm for each operating system. Hmm, that idea sounds remarkably familiar thinks back to a meeting in NJ about 2 years ago :-) -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: So, ideally, if we do a plug-in system, I think we need some way to have these plugins be very easily installed, perhaps by choosing object files pre-compile by the build farm for each operating system. IIRC the main problem isn't compilation and packaging of plugins. On your Ubuntu system, for example, you can easily install 'postgresql-contrib-8.x' and get most of the contrib modules as *.so libraries. You'll even find the install_*.sql and uninstall_*.sql scripts in '/usr/share/postgresql/8.x/contrib'. The main problem I see is ease of installation and backup/restore capability of these modules. Installing the tsearch2 module with: psql $YOURDB /usr/share/postgresql/8.x/contrib/tsearch2.sql ..is already quite easy to do. But beware of the trouble when trying to back up and restore that database later on! At the moment, we distinguish between system objects, initdb objects and user objects by OID: #define FirstBootstrapObjectId 1 #define FirstNormalObjectId 16384 But objects created by modules are indistinguishable from user objects. IMO, that's the main problem. Maybe we can solve this by reserving yet another range of OIDs for modules. Then treat these objects as 'system' objects during a pg_dump? I'm not sure if such a limited range of OIDs is a good idea, but IMO the ability to tell apart system, module and user objects is the key feature required here. Regards Markus Wanner -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Am Tuesday, 12. August 2008 schrieb Bruce Momjian: I feel the above comment about Firefox is the crux of the plugin issue. The difference is that Firefox is an interactive eye-candy system whereas PostgreSQL is a functionality-based server system. A PostgreSQL database system needs to have a set up method that is robust, reproducible, and noninteractive. Easy of use and click drool is all nice, but overall I think the requirements profile for a PostgreSQL plugin system is quite different from Firefox. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Markus Wanner wrote: Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: So, ideally, if we do a plug-in system, I think we need some way to have these plugins be very easily installed, perhaps by choosing object files pre-compile by the build farm for each operating system. IIRC the main problem isn't compilation and packaging of plugins. On your Ubuntu system, for example, you can easily install 'postgresql-contrib-8.x' and get most of the contrib modules as *.so libraries. You'll even find the install_*.sql and uninstall_*.sql scripts in '/usr/share/postgresql/8.x/contrib'. The main problem I see is ease of installation and backup/restore capability of these modules. Installing the tsearch2 module with: psql $YOURDB /usr/share/postgresql/8.x/contrib/tsearch2.sql ..is already quite easy to do. But beware of the trouble when trying to back up and restore that database later on! Well, dump/restore is part of the problem for /contrib but we need something that handles pgfoundry stuff too, which I doubt is ever going to be covered sufficiently by any OS-specific solutions. The bottom line is that for software to be successful we need a critical mass, and as long as we are doing OS-specific plugins we aren't going to reach that critical mass because the OS-specific aspect splits up demand. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Am Tuesday, 12. August 2008 schrieb Bruce Momjian: I feel the above comment about Firefox is the crux of the plugin issue. The difference is that Firefox is an interactive eye-candy system whereas PostgreSQL is a functionality-based server system. A PostgreSQL database system needs to have a set up method that is robust, reproducible, and noninteractive. Easy of use and click drool is all nice, but overall I think the requirements profile for a PostgreSQL plugin system is quite different from Firefox. True, but I don't see having eye-candy and robust as mutually exclusive. This is one of the areas where Postgres can go beyond what other databases can offer, and if we can make it easier to use, we will get more benefit from it. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: The bottom line is that for software to be successful we need a critical mass, and as long as we are doing OS-specific plugins we aren't going to reach that critical mass because the OS-specific aspect splits up demand. What about the pgxs toolchain? Doesn't that provide enough OS-abstraction to be usable for projects outside of Postgres itself? If no, why not? (I've currently only used it for extensions under different Linuxen, so I can't tell much about OS-specific aspects of it). Are you proposing that we should introduce our own packaging system for such add-on components? Like CP(g)AN (which has been proposed before..)? Regards Markus Wanner -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Markus Wanner wrote: Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: The bottom line is that for software to be successful we need a critical mass, and as long as we are doing OS-specific plugins we aren't going to reach that critical mass because the OS-specific aspect splits up demand. What about the pgxs toolchain? Doesn't that provide enough OS-abstraction to be usable for projects outside of Postgres itself? If no, why not? (I've currently only used it for extensions under different Linuxen, so I can't tell much about OS-specific aspects of it). pgxs is very good, but it is for interpolating server information to be used during a compile; it does not deal with packaging. Are you proposing that we should introduce our own packaging system for such add-on components? Like CP(g)AN (which has been proposed before..)? Yes, pretty much. I imagine some kind of web interface or Java app (did I just say that?) that lists all plugins and when you choose one it downloads an object file appropriate for your operating system plus SQL scripts and somehow automatically installs them in the desired database. That is the kind of capability we need to really advance things. We would still allow source installs but for people wanting to try things out, I see no other alternative, and try things out == adoption. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
I can't speak for anyone else, but I much prefer packages that make use of my operating system's package management system rather than rolling their own. If I need a perl package that I can't get through yum, I build my own RPMs rather than installing through CPAN. I actually think that the biggest hurdle to the adoption of non-core code is knowing that it's out there to begin with. Firefox advertises the availability of add-ons VERY prominently, and that is why people give them a try. www.postgresql.org has a link to pgfoundry on the home page, but nothing about contrib, and pgfoundry is not as end-user-friendly as addons.mozilla.org. And the core documentation doesn't mention contrib or pgfoundry much either. There is a section on contrib in the docs, but that only helps you if your question is What does contrib module X do?. If your question is Is there a contrib module X that addresses my problem?, that's not so easy. For example, if you''re reading the page on string functions[1], it will tell you that you can do regular expression matching and substring matching, but they WON'T tell you that if you're looking for soundex matching, you should look to the fuzzystrmatch[2] package. ...Robert [1] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/interactive/functions-string.html [2] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/interactive/fuzzystrmatch.html On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Markus Wanner wrote: Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: The bottom line is that for software to be successful we need a critical mass, and as long as we are doing OS-specific plugins we aren't going to reach that critical mass because the OS-specific aspect splits up demand. What about the pgxs toolchain? Doesn't that provide enough OS-abstraction to be usable for projects outside of Postgres itself? If no, why not? (I've currently only used it for extensions under different Linuxen, so I can't tell much about OS-specific aspects of it). pgxs is very good, but it is for interpolating server information to be used during a compile; it does not deal with packaging. Are you proposing that we should introduce our own packaging system for such add-on components? Like CP(g)AN (which has been proposed before..)? Yes, pretty much. I imagine some kind of web interface or Java app (did I just say that?) that lists all plugins and when you choose one it downloads an object file appropriate for your operating system plus SQL scripts and somehow automatically installs them in the desired database. That is the kind of capability we need to really advance things. We would still allow source installs but for people wanting to try things out, I see no other alternative, and try things out == adoption. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Hi, Robert Haas wrote: I can't speak for anyone else, but I much prefer packages that make use of my operating system's package management system rather than rolling their own. If I need a perl package that I can't get through yum, I build my own RPMs rather than installing through CPAN. I very much agree to that (well, s/RPM/DEB/). But AFAIK we also need to provide packages for OSes without a package management system. Windows being the most popular such OS. Which probably means we should provide something that can work on its own *or* through another package management system (very much like CPAN and others, again). Regards Markus Wanner -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Markus Wanner wrote: Hi, Robert Haas wrote: I can't speak for anyone else, but I much prefer packages that make use of my operating system's package management system rather than rolling their own. If I need a perl package that I can't get through yum, I build my own RPMs rather than installing through CPAN. I very much agree to that (well, s/RPM/DEB/). But AFAIK we also need to provide packages for OSes without a package management system. Windows being the most popular such OS. Which probably means we should provide something that can work on its own *or* through another package management system (very much like CPAN and others, again). We don't get economies of scale without an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: .. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. I'm just arguing that such a packaging system should not get in the way of a pre-existing packaging system (whether it is OS-native or not, whether it is an open and well known format or a proprietary SomethingSuperPerfect(tm) Packaging System for Windows). Regards Markus Wanner -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Markus Wanner wrote: Hi, Bruce Momjian wrote: .. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. Seems to in Firefox. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. I'm just arguing that such a packaging system should not get in the way of a pre-existing packaging system (whether it is OS-native or not, whether it is an open and well known format or a proprietary SomethingSuperPerfect(tm) Packaging System for Windows). I never suggested interfering with our existing distribution methods. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
On Aug 12, 2008, at 13:16, Bruce Momjian wrote: .. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. Seems to in Firefox. And Perl's CPAN repository and installation module. Best, David -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
On Aug 12, 2008, at 12:42 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote: Markus Wanner wrote: Hi, Robert Haas wrote: I can't speak for anyone else, but I much prefer packages that make use of my operating system's package management system rather than rolling their own. If I need a perl package that I can't get through yum, I build my own RPMs rather than installing through CPAN. I very much agree to that (well, s/RPM/DEB/). But AFAIK we also need to provide packages for OSes without a package management system. Windows being the most popular such OS. Which probably means we should provide something that can work on its own *or* through another package management system (very much like CPAN and others, again). We don't get economies of scale without an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. If the OS-agnostic version is designed appropriately then turning it (mechanically) into an OS-specific one should be possible. Cheers, Steve -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
.. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. Seems to in Firefox. And Perl's CPAN repository and installation module. Don't forget the command line installation of packages for the R programming language. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
.. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. Seems to in Firefox. I think nearly all Firefox extensions are written in XML and Javascript. It's quite a bit easier to have an OS-agnostic way of installing packages when the packages are platform-independent. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. Really? Who is it? ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
On Aug 12, 2008, at 18:12, Robert Haas wrote: I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. Really? Who is it? Those of us who don't use packaging systems. And, we are legion. Best, David -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
Robert Haas wrote: .. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. Seems to in Firefox. I think nearly all Firefox extensions are written in XML and Javascript. It's quite a bit easier to have an OS-agnostic way of installing packages when the packages are platform-independent. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. Really? Who is it? People who want to try a database and its plugins to see if they like it. -- Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:pgsql-hackers- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:04 PM To: Robert Haas Cc: Markus Wanner; Matthew T. O'Connor; Tom Lane; Greg Sabino Mullane; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Plugin system like Firefox Robert Haas wrote: .. an OS-agnostic way of installing packages. Uh.. I don't think such a thing exists. Seems to in Firefox. I think nearly all Firefox extensions are written in XML and Javascript. It's quite a bit easier to have an OS-agnostic way of installing packages when the packages are platform-independent. I realize many prefer their OS-native packaging system, but that isn't the target audience of a packaging system that will increase adoption. Really? Who is it? People who want to try a database and its plugins to see if they like it. For what it's worth, I am rather fond of the firefox plugin for sqlite. Now, SQLite has very little in the way of administrative tools, so that tilts the field, but I guess other people might toy with PostgreSQL if a plugin were available and might not otherwise just because one is available. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
