Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

I believe it is pretty obvious we are moving in the direction of having 
a tracker at this point. The problem is exactly which direction. Stephen 
has offered some resources for his ideas and now I am offering some 
resources for mine.


I am proposing to setup a redmine instance on a VM. I am happy to do a 
lot of the legwork and should be able to get most of it done before EU. 
This is what I think I need from my fellows:


1. At least two committers
2. At least three hackers (preferably that are different from the 
committers but not required)

3. At least two users

I think we have reached a point where everyone has ideas of what they do 
and don't want but none of it matters if we don't have a proof of 
concept to determine what we do and don't know or want.


Thoughts? Volunteers?

Sincerely,

JD
--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Dave Page]

> On 2 Oct 2015, at 17:28, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I believe it is pretty obvious we are moving in the direction of having a 
> tracker at this point. The problem is exactly which direction. Stephen has 
> offered some resources for his ideas and now I am offering some resources for 
> mine.
> 
> I am proposing to setup a redmine instance on a VM. I am happy to do a lot of 
> the legwork and should be able to get most of it done before EU. This is what 
> I think I need from my fellows:
> 
> 1. At least two committers
> 2. At least three hackers (preferably that are different from the committers 
> but not required)
> 3. At least two users
> 
> I think we have reached a point where everyone has ideas of what they do and 
> don't want but none of it matters if we don't have a proof of concept to 
> determine what we do and don't know or want.
> 
> Thoughts? Volunteers?

I swore to myself that I'd stay out of this bikeshed, but... we already have a 
Redmine instance.

-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 10/02/2015 11:36 AM, Robert Haas wrote:


I don't know what this has to do with anything Andres said.



I am sorry if I wasn't clear.

Put succinctly, I am willing to put resources into testing Redmine for 
our needs. I will need help to do so because I am not a 
committer/hacker. Andres thinks that isn't worth while. I think he is 
wrong. If he doesn't want to help, he doesn't have to, thus the call for 
volunteers.


I am not expecting that redmine will be chosen over debbugs. I am 
expecting that we make an educated decision about which one suits our 
needs. If we only review debbugs, we are making a decision in a vacuum.


JD



--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 10/02/2015 09:34 AM, Dave Page wrote:


Thoughts? Volunteers?


I swore to myself that I'd stay out of this bikeshed, but... we already have a 
Redmine instance.


I know but I didn't want to dogfood in an installation that was 
production. I am not going to put up vanilla redmine, I actually planned 
on configuring in a way that could be used by -hackers which could 
(possibly?) cause issues with the install .Org has.


JD







--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Andres Freund]

Hi,

On 2015-10-02 09:28:02 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> I am proposing to setup a redmine instance on a VM. I am happy to do a lot
> of the legwork and should be able to get most of it done before EU. This is
> what I think I need from my fellows:

-1. This thread has already cost disproportionally much time and
motiviation. Let's not wase more in doing two evaluations at the same
time, when we might already be happy with one of them. We came pretty
close to agreeing on debbugs in a couple past discussions so that seems
the least unlikely choice to actually get adopted.

Greetings,

Andres Freund


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 10/02/2015 09:41 AM, Andres Freund wrote:

Hi,

On 2015-10-02 09:28:02 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

I am proposing to setup a redmine instance on a VM. I am happy to do a lot
of the legwork and should be able to get most of it done before EU. This is
what I think I need from my fellows:


-1. This thread has already cost disproportionally much time and
motiviation. Let's not wase more in doing two evaluations at the same
time, when we might already be happy with one of them. We came pretty
close to agreeing on debbugs in a couple past discussions so that seems
the least unlikely choice to actually get adopted.


I once drove a manual all the time. I swore by the manual. I loved the 
control, the feeling (ridiculously) that I was a race car driver on the 
Urban track.


Then I got an automatic and realized how damn nice it was to not be in 
control or have to worry about whether or not I should shift at 3k RPMS 
or 4k RPMS. (Then I drove a manual on the wrong side of the road in 
Ireland and was even happier that I prefer automatics)


We can't just point at something and say, "Oh that will work" because we 
haven't tried to see how it is going to work with our requirements.


I wouldn't expect any customer to use postgresql because it has an 
Elephant as a mascot. I expect them to use it because it is the best 
choice for their requirements.


JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Robert Haas]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> I once drove a manual all the time. I swore by the manual. I loved the
> control, the feeling (ridiculously) that I was a race car driver on the
> Urban track.
>
> Then I got an automatic and realized how damn nice it was to not be in
> control or have to worry about whether or not I should shift at 3k RPMS or
> 4k RPMS. (Then I drove a manual on the wrong side of the road in Ireland and
> was even happier that I prefer automatics)
>
> We can't just point at something and say, "Oh that will work" because we
> haven't tried to see how it is going to work with our requirements.
>
> I wouldn't expect any customer to use postgresql because it has an Elephant
> as a mascot. I expect them to use it because it is the best choice for their
> requirements.

I don't know what this has to do with anything Andres said.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Robert Haas]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> I am sorry if I wasn't clear.
>
> Put succinctly, I am willing to put resources into testing Redmine for our
> needs. I will need help to do so because I am not a committer/hacker. Andres
> thinks that isn't worth while. I think he is wrong. If he doesn't want to
> help, he doesn't have to, thus the call for volunteers.
>
> I am not expecting that redmine will be chosen over debbugs. I am expecting
> that we make an educated decision about which one suits our needs. If we
> only review debbugs, we are making a decision in a vacuum.

OK.  My reading of the thread is that the hackers who expressed an
opinion mostly preferred debbugs and the people less involved in the
project wanted something more like GitHub/GitLab.  Some people also
argued for and against Bugzilla and JIRA.  I didn't really see anybody
agitating for Redmine, so I'm not sure how far you're going to get
with that.

But I'm not really arguing against it.  We use it here at
EnterpriseDB, and it's very helpful, though it is undeniably a
[expletive]-ton of work to maintain.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 10/02/2015 12:52 PM, Robert Haas wrote:


OK.  My reading of the thread is that the hackers who expressed an
opinion mostly preferred debbugs and the people less involved in the
project wanted something more like GitHub/GitLab.  Some people also
argued for and against Bugzilla and JIRA.  I didn't really see anybody
agitating for Redmine, so I'm not sure how far you're going to get
with that.


Right, thus call for Volunteers. If I can get a few to help me, I am 
willing to put my resources behind it. If I can't then I won't. I guess 
what I am really saying here is, "If I am going to bitch about the lack 
of a tracker, I better damn well be willing to put resources into fixing 
the problem".


So I am putting my money where my mouth is.



But I'm not really arguing against it.  We use it here at
EnterpriseDB, and it's very helpful, though it is undeniably a
[expletive]-ton of work to maintain.


Yeah, and that is any issue tracker (the ton of work to maintain).

Sincerely,

JD


--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Alvaro Herrera]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> Put succinctly, I am willing to put resources into testing Redmine for our
> needs. I will need help to do so because I am not a committer/hacker. Andres
> thinks that isn't worth while. I think he is wrong. If he doesn't want to
> help, he doesn't have to, thus the call for volunteers.

Nobody asked, but here's my opinion on Redmine.  I worked pretty heavily
with it during my time at Command Prompt.  I have to say that with the
customizations that CMD had at the time, it wasn't that bad -- I was
pretty happy that I could interact with it via email, and most of the
time it wouldn't do anything too stupid.  I could also interact with it
using the web, and it worked pretty well there.  Most other Redmine
installations I've used don't have the email interface at all.

However, the contact surface between these two options wasn't really
well polished.  Formatting would be lost very frequently: I could write
a nice email, and the customer would get a nice email, but if you looked
at it in the web, it was very ugly.  If you used the web form to reply,
the resulting email looked pretty stupid in some cases.  I eventually
learned to use the right {{{ }}} markers in my email replies so that
code would look right in the web.  But if you made a single mistake, you
were fscked and there was no way at all to fix it.

As far as I remember, the main reason for this pain was that it didn't
try to consider an email as an email: instead, what it did was grab the
text and cram it into the comment box.  Same thing in the other
direction, where the text from the comment would be crammed as an email
in output.  All that was needed was for it to store emails in the
rfc/2822 format in the database, and then render them as emails in the
web form, instead of trying to do the conversion in the process.


If you look at the debbugs interface, it is pretty clear that all that
it does is keep track of emails -- which, let it be said, is the soul of
this community's communication, so it seems to me that that is what we
need.  Metadata changes are kept visually separate from actual
commentary, which is convenient; and you can always get the mbox
involving that bug, or look at minute details of it using the web
interface if you need that sort of thing.

-- 
Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Robert Haas]

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Alvaro Herrera  wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Put succinctly, I am willing to put resources into testing Redmine for our
>> needs. I will need help to do so because I am not a committer/hacker. Andres
>> thinks that isn't worth while. I think he is wrong. If he doesn't want to
>> help, he doesn't have to, thus the call for volunteers.
>
> Nobody asked, but here's my opinion on Redmine.  I worked pretty heavily
> with it during my time at Command Prompt.  I have to say that with the
> customizations that CMD had at the time, it wasn't that bad -- I was
> pretty happy that I could interact with it via email, and most of the
> time it wouldn't do anything too stupid.  I could also interact with it
> using the web, and it worked pretty well there.  Most other Redmine
> installations I've used don't have the email interface at all.
>
> However, the contact surface between these two options wasn't really
> well polished.  Formatting would be lost very frequently: I could write
> a nice email, and the customer would get a nice email, but if you looked
> at it in the web, it was very ugly.  If you used the web form to reply,
> the resulting email looked pretty stupid in some cases.  I eventually
> learned to use the right {{{ }}} markers in my email replies so that
> code would look right in the web.  But if you made a single mistake, you
> were fscked and there was no way at all to fix it.
>
> As far as I remember, the main reason for this pain was that it didn't
> try to consider an email as an email: instead, what it did was grab the
> text and cram it into the comment box.  Same thing in the other
> direction, where the text from the comment would be crammed as an email
> in output.  All that was needed was for it to store emails in the
> rfc/2822 format in the database, and then render them as emails in the
> web form, instead of trying to do the conversion in the process.
>
>
> If you look at the debbugs interface, it is pretty clear that all that
> it does is keep track of emails -- which, let it be said, is the soul of
> this community's communication, so it seems to me that that is what we
> need.  Metadata changes are kept visually separate from actual
> commentary, which is convenient; and you can always get the mbox
> involving that bug, or look at minute details of it using the web
> interface if you need that sort of thing.

Thanks for this very thoughtful email.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


-- 
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers

Re: Request for dogfood volunteers (was [HACKERS] No Issue Tracker - Say it Ain't So!)

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 10/02/2015 01:26 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:


However, the contact surface between these two options wasn't really
well polished.  Formatting would be lost very frequently: I could write
a nice email, and the customer would get a nice email, but if you looked
 at it in the web, it was very ugly.


Newer versions are much better at this from what I can tell.


 If you used the web form to reply,
the resulting email looked pretty stupid in some cases.  I eventually
learned to use the right {{{ }}} markers in my email replies so that
code would look right in the web.  But if you made a single mistake, you
were fscked and there was no way at all to fix it.


I don't know anything about the brackets but I do know one thing that is 
unfortunate about redmine is that it assumes plain text unless you tell 
it something different. What does that mean?


If you want to use a preformatted (text based) entry:


psql -U postgres


Will do exactly the same thing in the web interface. Of course in the 
web interface it gets formatted so it looks great. In email, you get 
HTML code.


I find is that as long as you are working in just text, everything is 
kosher. If you try to do any formatting (so it looks nice on the web), 
you run into problems.




If you look at the debbugs interface, it is pretty clear that all that
it does is keep track of emails -- which, let it be said, is the soul of
this community's communication, so it seems to me that that is what we
need.  Metadata changes are kept visually separate from actual
commentary, which is convenient; and you can always get the mbox
involving that bug, or look at minute details of it using the web
interface if you need that sort of thing.


It is true (I believe roundup doesn't something similar to debbugs) that 
Redmine considers email a business class citizen, not coach but 
certainly not first class.


My main issue with debbugs is that it appears very limited and is yet 
another piece of infrastructure that only provides that infrastructure 
and thus will continue to cause more heartache than is needed. That 
isn't to say it is a bad piece of software but that it is very specific 
in what it does.


We seem to need more than that. As another person (I don't recall who) 
mentioned, Redmine gives us an infrastructure to many things including 
proper mapping between issues and GIT. Perhaps we don't use that now but 
do we want to be in a position a year from now where we want it but now 
we have pitched our tent with a more limited piece of software?


I do appreciate the feedback on it and I am in no way suggesting that 
Redmine is perfect only that it "might" be the solution.


Sincerely,

JD





--
Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


--
Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org)
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers