Re: [PERFORM] Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tuning
Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: I have noticed that others (Alvaro, Joshua) suggest to set vacuum_cost_delay as low as 10 or 20 ms, My suggestion is to set it as *high* as 10 or 20 ms. Compared to the original default of 0ms. This is just because I'm lazy enough not to have done any measuring of the exact consequences of such a setting, and out of fear that a very high value could provoke some sort of disaster. I must admit that changing the vacuum_delay_limit isn't something that I'm used to recommending. Maybe it does make sense considering readahead effects and the new ring buffer stuff. -- Alvaro Herrera http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/CTMLCN8V17R4 La experiencia nos dice que el hombre peló millones de veces las patatas, pero era forzoso admitir la posibilidad de que en un caso entre millones, las patatas pelarían al hombre (Ijon Tichy) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
[PERFORM] Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tuning
Hi, I'm currently trying to tune the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay in a 8.2.5 server. The aim is to reduce as much as possible the performance impact of vacuums on application queries, with the background idea of running autovacuum as much as possible[1]. My test involves vacuuming a large table, and measuring the completion time, as the vacuuming proceeds, of a rather long running application query (involving a table different from the one being vacuumed) which cannot fit entirely in buffers (and the completion time of the vacuum, because it needs not be too slow, of course). I ran my tests with a few combinations of vacuum_cost_delay/vacuum_cost_limit, while keeping the other parameters set to the default from the 8.2.5 tarball: vacuum_cost_page_hit = 1 vacuum_cost_page_miss = 10 vacuum_cost_page_dirty = 20 The completion time of the query is about 16 seconds in isolation. With a vacuuming proceeding, here are the results: vacuum_cost_delay/vacuum_cost_limit (deactivated) 20/200 40/200 100/1000 150/1000 200/1000 300/1000 VACUUM ANALYZE time54 s112 s188 s109 s 152 s 190 s 274 s SELECT time50 s 28 s 26 s 24 s 22 s 20 s 19 s I have noticed that others (Alvaro, Joshua) suggest to set vacuum_cost_delay as low as 10 or 20 ms, however in my situation I'd like to lower the performance impact in application queries and will probably choose 150/1000 where only a +40% is seen - I'm curious if anyone else has followed the same path, or is there any outstanding flaw I've missed here? I'm talking outstanding, as of course any local decision may be different in the hope of favouring a different database/application behaviour. Other than that, it's the results obtained with the design principle of Cost-Base Vacuum Delay, which I find a little surprising. Of course, I think it has been thought through a lot, and my observations are probably naive, but I'm going to throw my ideas anyway, who knows. I'd think that it would be possible to lower yet again the impact of vacuuming on other queries, while keeping a vacuuming time with little overhead, if dynamically changing the delays related to database activity, rather than using fixed costs and delays. For example, before and after each vacuum sleep delay is completed, pg could: - check the amount of currently running queries (pg_stat_activity), and continue sleeping if it is above a configured threshold; by following this path, databases with peak activities could use a threshold of 1 and have zero ressource comsumption for vacuuming during peaks, still having nearly no time completion overhead for vacuuming out of peaks (since the check is performed also before the sleep delay, which would be deactivated if no queries are running); if we can afford a luxury implementation, we could always have a maximum sleep time configuration, which would allow vacuuming to proceed a little bit even when there's no timeframe with low enough database activity - alternatively, pg could make use of some longer term statistics (load average, IO statistics) to dynamically pause the vacuuming - this I guess is related to the host OS and probably more difficult to have working correctly with multiple disks and/or processes running - however, if you want high performance from PostgreSQL, you probably won't host other IO applications on the same disk(s) While I'm at it, a different Cost-Based Vacuum Delay issue: VACUUM FULL also follows the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tunings. While it makes total sense when you want to perform a query on another table, it becomes a problem when your query is waiting for the exclusive lock on the vacuumed table. Potentially, you will have the vacuuming proceeding slowly because of the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay, and a blocked application because the application queries are just waiting. I'm wondering if it would not be possible to dynamically ignore (or lower, if it makes more sense?) the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay during vacuum full, if a configurable amount of queries are waiting for the lock? (please save yourself from answering you should never run VACUUM FULL if you're vacuuming enough - as long as VACUUM FULL is available in PostgreSQL, there's no reason to not make it as practically usable as possible, albeit with low dev priority) Ref: [1] inspired by http://developer.postgresql.org/~wieck/vacuum_cost/ -- Guillaume Cottenceau, MNC Mobile News Channel SA, an Alcatel-Lucent Company Av. de la Gare 10, 1003 Lausanne, Switzerland ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [PERFORM] Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tuning
On Dec 7, 2007, at 4:50 AM, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Hi, I'm currently trying to tune the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay in a 8.2.5 server. The aim is to reduce as much as possible the performance impact of vacuums on application queries, with the background idea of running autovacuum as much as possible[1]. My test involves vacuuming a large table, and measuring the completion time, as the vacuuming proceeds, of a rather long running application query (involving a table different from the one being vacuumed) which cannot fit entirely in buffers (and the completion time of the vacuum, because it needs not be too slow, of course). I ran my tests with a few combinations of vacuum_cost_delay/vacuum_cost_limit, while keeping the other parameters set to the default from the 8.2.5 tarball: vacuum_cost_page_hit = 1 vacuum_cost_page_miss = 10 vacuum_cost_page_dirty = 20 The completion time of the query is about 16 seconds in isolation. With a vacuuming proceeding, here are the results: vacuum_cost_delay/vacuum_cost_limit (deactivated) 20/200 40/200 100/1000 150/1000 200/1000 300/1000 VACUUM ANALYZE time54 s112 s188 s109 s 152 s 190 s 274 s SELECT time50 s 28 s 26 s 24 s22 s 20 s 19 s While you do mention that the table you're running your select on is too big to fit in the shared_buffers, the drop in time between the first run and the rest most likely still reflects the fact that when running those tests successively a good portion of the table will already be in shared_buffers as well as being in the filesystem cache, i.e. very little of the runs after the first will have to hit the disk much. I have noticed that others (Alvaro, Joshua) suggest to set vacuum_cost_delay as low as 10 or 20 ms, however in my situation I'd like to lower the performance impact in application queries and will probably choose 150/1000 where only a +40% is seen - I'm curious if anyone else has followed the same path, or is there any outstanding flaw I've missed here? I'm talking outstanding, as of course any local decision may be different in the hope of favouring a different database/application behaviour. Other than that, it's the results obtained with the design principle of Cost-Base Vacuum Delay, which I find a little surprising. Of course, I think it has been thought through a lot, and my observations are probably naive, but I'm going to throw my ideas anyway, who knows. I'd think that it would be possible to lower yet again the impact of vacuuming on other queries, while keeping a vacuuming time with little overhead, if dynamically changing the delays related to database activity, rather than using fixed costs and delays. For example, before and after each vacuum sleep delay is completed, pg could: - check the amount of currently running queries (pg_stat_activity), and continue sleeping if it is above a configured threshold; by following this path, databases with peak activities could use a threshold of 1 and have zero ressource comsumption for vacuuming during peaks, still having nearly no time completion overhead for vacuuming out of peaks (since the check is performed also before the sleep delay, which would be deactivated if no queries are running); if we can afford a luxury implementation, we could always have a maximum sleep time configuration, which would allow vacuuming to proceed a little bit even when there's no timeframe with low enough database activity - alternatively, pg could make use of some longer term statistics (load average, IO statistics) to dynamically pause the vacuuming - this I guess is related to the host OS and probably more difficult to have working correctly with multiple disks and/or processes running - however, if you want high performance from PostgreSQL, you probably won't host other IO applications on the same disk(s) These ideas have been discussed much. Look in the archives to the beginning of this year. I think the general consensus was that it would be good have multiple autovacuum workers that could be tuned for different times or workloads. I know Alvarro was going to work on something along those lines but I'm not sure what's made it into 8.3 or what's still definitely planned for the future. While I'm at it, a different Cost-Based Vacuum Delay issue: VACUUM FULL also follows the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tunings. While it makes total sense when you want to perform a query on another table, it becomes a problem when your query is waiting for the exclusive lock on the vacuumed table. Potentially, you will have the vacuuming proceeding slowly because of the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay, and a blocked application because the application queries are just waiting. I'm wondering if it would not be possible to dynamically ignore (or lower, if it makes more sense?) the Cost-Based
Re: [PERFORM] Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tuning
On Dec 7, 2007, at 10:44 AM, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Erik Jones erik 'at' myemma.com writes: vacuum_cost_delay/vacuum_cost_limit (deactivated) 20/200 40/200 100/1000 150/1000 200/1000 300/1000 VACUUM ANALYZE time54 s112 s188 s109 s 152 s 190 s 274 s SELECT time50 s 28 s 26 s 24 s22 s 20 s 19 s While you do mention that the table you're running your select on is too big to fit in the shared_buffers, the drop in time between the first run and the rest most likely still reflects the fact that when These figures don't show a difference between first run and subsequent runs. For each parameter tuning, a couple of runs are fired after database restart, and once the value is approximately constant, it's picked and put in this table. The deactivated shows the (stable, from subsequent runs) figure when vacuum delay is disabled (vacuum_cost_delay parameter quoted), not the first run, if that's where the confusion came from. It was. Is it on pgsql-hackers? I haven't found much stuff in pgsql-performance while looking for vacuum_cost_delay tuning. would be good have multiple autovacuum workers that could be tuned for different times or workloads. I know Alvarro was going to work Sounds interesting. Run the initial archive search against pgsql-general over the last year for a thread called 'Autovacuum Improvements' I'm wondering if it would not be possible to dynamically ignore (or lower, if it makes more sense?) the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay during vacuum full, if a configurable amount of queries are waiting for the lock? (please save yourself from answering you should never run VACUUM FULL if you're vacuuming enough - as long as VACUUM FULL is available in PostgreSQL, there's no reason to not make it as practically usable as possible, albeit with low dev priority) Ok, I won't say what you said not to say. But, I will say that I don't agree with you're conjecture that VACUUM FULL should be made more lightweight, it's like using dynamite to knock a whole in a wall for a window. Thanks for opening a new kind of trol^Hargument against VACUUM FULL, that one's more fresh (at least to me, who doesn't follow the list too close anyway). Just for the record, I inherited a poorly (actually, not would be more appropriate) tuned database, containing more than 90% of dead tuples on large tables, and I witnessed quite some performance improvement while I could fix that. If you really want the VACUUM FULL effect without having to deal with vacuum_cost_delay, use CLUSTER. It also re-writes the table and, AFAIK, is not subject to any of the vacuum related configuration parameters. I'd argue that if you really need VACUUM FULL, you may as well use CLUSTER to get a good ordering of the re-written table. Erik Jones Software Developer | Emma® [EMAIL PROTECTED] 800.595.4401 or 615.292.5888 615.292.0777 (fax) Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate market in style. Visit us online at http://www.myemma.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [PERFORM] Cost-Based Vacuum Delay tuning
Erik Jones erik 'at' myemma.com writes: vacuum_cost_delay/vacuum_cost_limit (deactivated) 20/200 40/200 100/1000 150/1000 200/1000 300/1000 VACUUM ANALYZE time54 s112 s188 s109 s 152 s 190 s 274 s SELECT time50 s 28 s 26 s 24 s22 s 20 s 19 s While you do mention that the table you're running your select on is too big to fit in the shared_buffers, the drop in time between the first run and the rest most likely still reflects the fact that when These figures don't show a difference between first run and subsequent runs. For each parameter tuning, a couple of runs are fired after database restart, and once the value is approximately constant, it's picked and put in this table. The deactivated shows the (stable, from subsequent runs) figure when vacuum delay is disabled (vacuum_cost_delay parameter quoted), not the first run, if that's where the confusion came from. running those tests successively a good portion of the table will already be in shared_buffers as well as being in the filesystem cache, i.e. very little of the runs after the first will have to hit A dd sized at the total RAM size is run between each test (not between each parameter tuning, between each *query test*), to remove the OS disk cache effect. Of course, the PostgreSQL caching effect cannot be removed (maybe, it shouldn't, as after all this caching is here to improve performance), but the query is selected to generate a lot of disk activity even between each run (that's why I said a query which cannot fit entirely in buffers). the disk much. I have of course checked that the subsequent runs mean essentially disk activity, not CPU activity. - alternatively, pg could make use of some longer term statistics (load average, IO statistics) to dynamically pause the vacuuming - this I guess is related to the host OS and probably more difficult to have working correctly with multiple disks and/or processes running - however, if you want high performance from PostgreSQL, you probably won't host other IO applications on the same disk(s) These ideas have been discussed much. Look in the archives to the beginning of this year. I think the general consensus was that it Is it on pgsql-hackers? I haven't found much stuff in pgsql-performance while looking for vacuum_cost_delay tuning. would be good have multiple autovacuum workers that could be tuned for different times or workloads. I know Alvarro was going to work Sounds interesting. I'm wondering if it would not be possible to dynamically ignore (or lower, if it makes more sense?) the Cost-Based Vacuum Delay during vacuum full, if a configurable amount of queries are waiting for the lock? (please save yourself from answering you should never run VACUUM FULL if you're vacuuming enough - as long as VACUUM FULL is available in PostgreSQL, there's no reason to not make it as practically usable as possible, albeit with low dev priority) Ok, I won't say what you said not to say. But, I will say that I don't agree with you're conjecture that VACUUM FULL should be made more lightweight, it's like using dynamite to knock a whole in a wall for a window. Thanks for opening a new kind of trol^Hargument against VACUUM FULL, that one's more fresh (at least to me, who doesn't follow the list too close anyway). Just for the record, I inherited a poorly (actually, not would be more appropriate) tuned database, containing more than 90% of dead tuples on large tables, and I witnessed quite some performance improvement while I could fix that. -- Guillaume Cottenceau, MNC Mobile News Channel SA, an Alcatel-Lucent Company Av. de la Gare 10, 1003 Lausanne, Switzerland - direct +41 21 317 50 36 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
