Re: [Pharo-dev] new text model / TxText [was Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1]

2016-10-23 Thread stepharo 

Is there no way Igor can finish this up?


Not that I know.
I did not get why Igor went totally off like that.


Phil


Le 23 oct. 2016 12:19, "stepharo" > a écrit :



Hi Stef,

We are not throwing away anything. The goal is not to produce
a new model, the goal is to find one that matches the
requirements.

Don't play with words.

We already learnt a lot from TxText, but it has limitations in
how to deal with things that are not only text.

I can imagine.

We have no intention of producing an unfinished text model :).

Me neither with igor and txText yet life decided otherwise. You
see I spent at 10 months of salary on txText.

  This is a critical component for us. Please let us work for
a couple of months and we get back with news.

Cheers,
Doru


On Oct 22, 2016, at 8:31 PM, stepharo > wrote:

Hi aliaksei

I thought that you were just changing the internal
representation of txText to use Ropes
and building on top of / improving txText
I did not think that you were throwing away all the work
igor did. Because he spent a lot of time

designing the text model and making it is scalable - and
now I read that apparently it was not scalable enough.
I'm wondering what will happen if suddenly you disappear:
we will get two unfinished textmodel
and use an old one? When do you think that you will have a
working usable by other for real text model?
Stef

Le 22/10/16 à 12:29, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :

As Doru already mentioned text editor is an important
part of the tools. There are some requirements a text
editor should fulfil.

• Support of large files ( >> 100mb)
• Support of large pieces of text located in
memory
• Allow developers to embed visual elements
(pictures, interactive elements, custom elements)
• Support of more sophisticated layouts rather
than line-based. For example columns.
• Line breaking
• Text wrapping
• Hyphens
• Should be fast
Tests show that TxText model is very nice for basic
cases, works well for "normal" use.
However, when it comes to extreme cases linked list of
spans just fails, while rope shows great performance -
and it also scales.

Cheers,
Alex

On 19 October 2016 at 23:51, Denis Kudriashov
>
wrote:

2016-10-19 18:06 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel
>:
  - Added initial text support, for instance rendering
and high precision measurement.

I look at code and it seems you implemented another
one new text model? Why you not use TxText?

--
www.tudorgirba.com 
www.feenk.com 

"Some battles are better lost than fought."

Re: [Pharo-dev] new text model / TxText [was Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1]

2016-10-23 Thread Sean P. DeNigris 
stepharo wrote
>> We have no intention of producing an unfinished text model :).
> Me neither with igor and txText yet life decided otherwise. You see I 
> spent at 10 months of salary on txText.

I'm not sure if the following qualifies as a rant, but I apologize in
advance just in case...

Hopefully the difference in this instance is that there is an entire team
around this effort. It's just hard to be asked to trust after years of
(albeit solo, usually unpaid) projects, touted as our future salvation, and
then abandoned when "life got in the way" - e.g. (in no particular order,
and some of these might not exactly fit into the above description) TxText,
Nautilus, Spec, Amber, Simple Morphic / Morphic 3, NativeBoost, Rome (iirc
the name), etc. The thing is that in niche (i.e. non-core dev) projects this
path to failure seems to be the rule, and not an exception, especially when
releases are put off indefinitely chasing perfection.

I have a very personal experience of this since one of my first desires  (a
quick search of the mailing list shows a post as early as May 14, 2010!) was
to implement VIM key bindings. Our exasperating text/editor model quickly
ground the project to a halt. I feel like I've been waiting for a
just-around-the-corner cleanup in this area for over 6 years now. Of course,
I'm not complaining about the lack of result, just offering some context
around the suspicion and concern about yet-another-reboot with not a single
release in over 7 years.

All that having been said, you're directions of investigation are very
exciting and I look forward to the results!



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919821.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-dev] new text model / TxText [was Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1]

2016-10-23 Thread Tudor Girba 
Hi,


> On Oct 23, 2016, at 12:18 PM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Hi Stef,
>> 
>> We are not throwing away anything. The goal is not to produce a new model, 
>> the goal is to find one that matches the requirements.
> Don't play with words.
>> We already learnt a lot from TxText, but it has limitations in how to deal 
>> with things that are not only text.
> I can imagine.
>> We have no intention of producing an unfinished text model :).
> Me neither with igor and txText yet life decided otherwise. You see I spent 
> at 10 months of salary on txText.
>>  This is a critical component for us. Please let us work for a couple of 
>> months and we get back with news.

I am really not playing with words :). We really have zero desire in working on 
the text editor. Just like we had zero desire in working on Sparta and Bloc. We 
are doing it because we need a sane infrastructure. We have halted the work on 
user interface of GT for more than 1 year just because it did not make 
engineering and economic sense to invest on the current infrastructure.

We need an infrastructure to support at least the next 5-10 years of 
development, and we are decided to deliver on it.

The investment in TxText is not at all wasted, it allowed us to bootstrap Bloc 
and to learn. We might end up with reusing parts of it, but the thing is that 
now we have new opportunities that come with Sparta.

For example, all text measurements are super accurate and are available in 
image. This means that we can address text rendering in two ways:
1. treat text as one entity and embed graphics inside as elements in the text 
model. This is where TxText is. However, TxText does not have the support for 
non-text elements (at least not now). Furthermore, this approach makes floating 
images inside the text (images that allow text to wrap around) to not be really 
working. 
2. split the text in different sections and lay it out together with other 
graphical elements using the layout engine from Bloc.

Option 2 was not really an option until now because we did not have the 
performance and accuracy. Now it is an option and we want to investigate this 
as well before committing to a model.

Cheers,
Doru



>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 22, 2016, at 8:31 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi aliaksei
>>> 
>>> I thought that you were just changing the internal representation of txText 
>>> to use Ropes
>>> and building on top of / improving txText
>>> I did not think that you were throwing away all the work igor did. Because 
>>> he spent a lot of time
>>> 
>>> designing the text model and making it is scalable - and now I read that 
>>> apparently it was not scalable enough.
>>> I'm wondering what will happen if suddenly you disappear: we will get two 
>>> unfinished textmodel
>>> and use an old one? When do you think that you will have a working usable 
>>> by other for real text model?
>>> Stef
>>> 
>>> Le 22/10/16 à 12:29, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
 As Doru already mentioned text editor is an important part of the tools. 
 There are some requirements a text editor should fulfil.
 
• Support of large files ( >> 100mb)
• Support of large pieces of text located in memory
• Allow developers to embed visual elements (pictures, interactive 
 elements, custom elements)
• Support of more sophisticated layouts rather than line-based. For 
 example columns.
• Line breaking
• Text wrapping
• Hyphens
• Should be fast
 Tests show that TxText model is very nice for basic cases, works well for 
 "normal" use.
 However, when it comes to extreme cases linked list of spans just fails, 
 while rope shows great performance - and it also scales.
 
 Cheers,
 Alex
 
 On 19 October 2016 at 23:51, Denis Kudriashov  wrote:
 
 2016-10-19 18:06 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel :
  - Added initial text support, for instance rendering and high precision 
 measurement.
 
 I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? 
 Why you not use TxText?
 
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>> www.feenk.com
>> 
>> "Some battles are better lost than fought."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."

Re: [Pharo-dev] new text model / TxText [was Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1]

2016-10-23 Thread philippe.b...@highoctane.be 
Is there no way Igor can finish this up?

Phil

Le 23 oct. 2016 12:19, "stepharo"  a écrit :

>
> Hi Stef,
>>
>> We are not throwing away anything. The goal is not to produce a new
>> model, the goal is to find one that matches the requirements.
>>
> Don't play with words.
>
> We already learnt a lot from TxText, but it has limitations in how to deal
>> with things that are not only text.
>>
> I can imagine.
>
>> We have no intention of producing an unfinished text model :).
>>
> Me neither with igor and txText yet life decided otherwise. You see I
> spent at 10 months of salary on txText.
>
>>   This is a critical component for us. Please let us work for a couple of
>> months and we get back with news.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>>
>>
>> On Oct 22, 2016, at 8:31 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi aliaksei
>>>
>>> I thought that you were just changing the internal representation of
>>> txText to use Ropes
>>> and building on top of / improving txText
>>> I did not think that you were throwing away all the work igor did.
>>> Because he spent a lot of time
>>>
>>> designing the text model and making it is scalable - and now I read that
>>> apparently it was not scalable enough.
>>> I'm wondering what will happen if suddenly you disappear: we will get
>>> two unfinished textmodel
>>> and use an old one? When do you think that you will have a working
>>> usable by other for real text model?
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> Le 22/10/16 à 12:29, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>>>
 As Doru already mentioned text editor is an important part of the
 tools. There are some requirements a text editor should fulfil.

 • Support of large files ( >> 100mb)
 • Support of large pieces of text located in memory
 • Allow developers to embed visual elements (pictures,
 interactive elements, custom elements)
 • Support of more sophisticated layouts rather than line-based.
 For example columns.
 • Line breaking
 • Text wrapping
 • Hyphens
 • Should be fast
 Tests show that TxText model is very nice for basic cases, works well
 for "normal" use.
 However, when it comes to extreme cases linked list of spans just
 fails, while rope shows great performance - and it also scales.

 Cheers,
 Alex

 On 19 October 2016 at 23:51, Denis Kudriashov 
 wrote:

 2016-10-19 18:06 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel :
   - Added initial text support, for instance rendering and high
 precision measurement.

 I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model?
 Why you not use TxText?

 --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>> www.feenk.com
>>
>> "Some battles are better lost than fought."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] new text model / TxText [was Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1]

2016-10-23 Thread stepharo 



Hi Stef,

We are not throwing away anything. The goal is not to produce a new model, the 
goal is to find one that matches the requirements.

Don't play with words.


We already learnt a lot from TxText, but it has limitations in how to deal with 
things that are not only text.

I can imagine.

We have no intention of producing an unfinished text model :).
Me neither with igor and txText yet life decided otherwise. You see I 
spent at 10 months of salary on txText.

  This is a critical component for us. Please let us work for a couple of 
months and we get back with news.

Cheers,
Doru



On Oct 22, 2016, at 8:31 PM, stepharo  wrote:

Hi aliaksei

I thought that you were just changing the internal representation of txText to 
use Ropes
and building on top of / improving txText
I did not think that you were throwing away all the work igor did. Because he 
spent a lot of time

designing the text model and making it is scalable - and now I read that 
apparently it was not scalable enough.
I'm wondering what will happen if suddenly you disappear: we will get two 
unfinished textmodel
and use an old one? When do you think that you will have a working usable by 
other for real text model?
Stef

Le 22/10/16 à 12:29, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :

As Doru already mentioned text editor is an important part of the tools. There 
are some requirements a text editor should fulfil.

• Support of large files ( >> 100mb)
• Support of large pieces of text located in memory
• Allow developers to embed visual elements (pictures, interactive 
elements, custom elements)
• Support of more sophisticated layouts rather than line-based. For 
example columns.
• Line breaking
• Text wrapping
• Hyphens
• Should be fast
Tests show that TxText model is very nice for basic cases, works well for 
"normal" use.
However, when it comes to extreme cases linked list of spans just fails, while 
rope shows great performance - and it also scales.

Cheers,
Alex

On 19 October 2016 at 23:51, Denis Kudriashov  wrote:

2016-10-19 18:06 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel :
  - Added initial text support, for instance rendering and high precision 
measurement.

I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? Why you 
not use TxText?


--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Some battles are better lost than fought."

[Pharo-dev] new text model / TxText [was Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1]

2016-10-22 Thread Tudor Girba 
Hi Stef,

We are not throwing away anything. The goal is not to produce a new model, the 
goal is to find one that matches the requirements. We already learnt a lot from 
TxText, but it has limitations in how to deal with things that are not only 
text.

We have no intention of producing an unfinished text model :). This is a 
critical component for us. Please let us work for a couple of months and we get 
back with news.

Cheers,
Doru


> On Oct 22, 2016, at 8:31 PM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hi aliaksei
> 
> I thought that you were just changing the internal representation of txText 
> to use Ropes 
> and building on top of / improving txText  
> I did not think that you were throwing away all the work igor did. Because he 
> spent a lot of time
> 
> designing the text model and making it is scalable - and now I read that 
> apparently it was not scalable enough. 
> I'm wondering what will happen if suddenly you disappear: we will get two 
> unfinished textmodel 
> and use an old one? When do you think that you will have a working usable by 
> other for real text model?
> Stef
> 
> Le 22/10/16 à 12:29, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>> As Doru already mentioned text editor is an important part of the tools. 
>> There are some requirements a text editor should fulfil.
>> 
>>  • Support of large files ( >> 100mb)
>>  • Support of large pieces of text located in memory
>>  • Allow developers to embed visual elements (pictures, interactive 
>> elements, custom elements)
>>  • Support of more sophisticated layouts rather than line-based. For 
>> example columns.
>>  • Line breaking
>>  • Text wrapping
>>  • Hyphens
>>  • Should be fast
>> Tests show that TxText model is very nice for basic cases, works well for 
>> "normal" use.
>> However, when it comes to extreme cases linked list of spans just fails, 
>> while rope shows great performance - and it also scales.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Alex
>> 
>> On 19 October 2016 at 23:51, Denis Kudriashov  wrote:
>> 
>> 2016-10-19 18:06 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel :
>>  - Added initial text support, for instance rendering and high precision 
>> measurement.
>> 
>> I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? Why 
>> you not use TxText?
>> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Some battles are better lost than fought."