Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[Ben Coman]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 at 01:54, Noury Bouraqadi  wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> My example was about having a collection of bits. So, #do: and #select: do
> continue to have the very same semantics.
> The whole point is to save memory behind the scenes, while keeping the
> same API.
> Consider a very large matrix of booleans. It would save memory to store
> booleans as bits.
> There is of course the "normal" way of doing it, by changing the
> implementation.
> But, with slots, it should be possible to use an instance 2DArray
>

What is the 2D-ness of a collection of bits.  Have you considered Bitmap?

The original paper discusses bit-fields.  I'm not sure how that maps to
current Pharo implementation.
http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/papers/Verw11bFlexibleObjectLayouts.pdf

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[Tim Mackinnon]

Wow - I hadn’t quite understood the implications here- can you explain that 
2DArray reference a bit more?

I keep thinking slots are cool but haven’t quite spotted when to use them and 
this seems like a compelling example that I haven’t quite grasped...

Tim

> On 20 Mar 2020, at 17:54, Noury Bouraqadi  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> My example was about having a collection of bits. So, #do: and #select: do 
> continue to have the very same semantics.
> The whole point is to save memory behind the scenes, while keeping the same 
> API.
> Consider a very large matrix of booleans. It would save memory to store 
> booleans as bits.
> There is of course the "normal" way of doing it, by changing the 
> implementation.
> But, with slots, it should be possible to use an instance 2DArray.
> 
> Noury
> 
>> 
>> On 20 Mar 2020, at 15:34, Richard Sargent 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 06:53 Noury Bouraqadi  wrote:
>>> Thanks Julien. So, what I did experienced is because BooleanSlot is work in 
>>> progress.
>>> To address my issue using slots, I guess collections should implement asBit 
>>> method (Sent by BooleanSlot).
>> 
>> 
>> Noury, when modelling something like this, think whether "all collections 
>> should implement asBit". I've added the word all, of course. There are so 
>> many possible collections for which #asBit wouldn't make sense that I would 
>> conclude the hypothesis to be incorrect. Even if you were to implement it on 
>> a single collection class, such as Array, there are still so many examples 
>> where #asBit could not apply.
>> 
>> Perhaps, there could be an e.g. Bits class in the Collection hierarchy. But, 
>> even then, it seems to me that there are so many inherited methods that 
>> wouldn't make sense. What would be the use of #do:? What would #select: 
>> mean? You get the idea.
>> 
>> An alternative possibility, and not the only one, is to model the bits as 
>> part of an integer, small or large. 
>> 
>> Of course, for performance, a ByteArray might be a good way to store bits. 
>> It has the benefit that every instance *can* represent bits. But, the 
>> inherited API operates on the bytes, not the bits.
>> 
>> Encapsulation may be the answer. e.g. a Bits object that holds a ByteArray 
>> and provides the API that is needed.
>> 
>> 
>> That's a rather long answer, admittedly.
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Noury
>>> 
>>> > On 20 Mar 2020, at 13:56, Julien Delplanque  
>>> > wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > Hello,
>>> > 
>>> > There is a work in progress prototype slot named BooleanSlot in the 
>>> > Slot-Example package built-in the image.
>>> > 
>>> > I think this slot does what you want.
>>> > 
>>> > So, the answer is yes, it is possible to do that. But you will need to 
>>> > fix todos left in BooleanSlot methods.
>>> > 
>>> > Julien
>>> > 
>>> > Le 20/03/20 à 12:24, N. Bouraqadi a écrit :
>>> >> Hi,
>>> >> 
>>> >> Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of booleans.
>>> >> I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits.
>>> >> Is there a way I can express it using slots?
>>> >> 
>>> >> This idea can be generalized to other types of slots.
>>> >> 
>>> >> Noury
>>> >> 
>>> > 
>>> 
>>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[Noury Bouraqadi]

Hi Richard,

My example was about having a collection of bits. So, #do: and #select: do 
continue to have the very same semantics.
The whole point is to save memory behind the scenes, while keeping the same API.
Consider a very large matrix of booleans. It would save memory to store 
booleans as bits.
There is of course the "normal" way of doing it, by changing the implementation.
But, with slots, it should be possible to use an instance 2DArray.

Noury

> 
> On 20 Mar 2020, at 15:34, Richard Sargent 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 06:53 Noury Bouraqadi  > wrote:
> Thanks Julien. So, what I did experienced is because BooleanSlot is work in 
> progress.
> To address my issue using slots, I guess collections should implement asBit 
> method (Sent by BooleanSlot).
> 
> Noury, when modelling something like this, think whether "all collections 
> should implement asBit". I've added the word all, of course. There are so 
> many possible collections for which #asBit wouldn't make sense that I would 
> conclude the hypothesis to be incorrect. Even if you were to implement it on 
> a single collection class, such as Array, there are still so many examples 
> where #asBit could not apply.
> 
> Perhaps, there could be an e.g. Bits class in the Collection hierarchy. But, 
> even then, it seems to me that there are so many inherited methods that 
> wouldn't make sense. What would be the use of #do:? What would #select: mean? 
> You get the idea.
> 
> An alternative possibility, and not the only one, is to model the bits as 
> part of an integer, small or large. 
> 
> Of course, for performance, a ByteArray might be a good way to store bits. It 
> has the benefit that every instance *can* represent bits. But, the inherited 
> API operates on the bytes, not the bits.
> 
> Encapsulation may be the answer. e.g. a Bits object that holds a ByteArray 
> and provides the API that is needed.
> 
> 
> That's a rather long answer, admittedly.
> 
> 
> 
> Noury
> 
> > On 20 Mar 2020, at 13:56, Julien Delplanque  > > wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > There is a work in progress prototype slot named BooleanSlot in the 
> > Slot-Example package built-in the image.
> > 
> > I think this slot does what you want.
> > 
> > So, the answer is yes, it is possible to do that. But you will need to fix 
> > todos left in BooleanSlot methods.
> > 
> > Julien
> > 
> > Le 20/03/20 à 12:24, N. Bouraqadi a écrit :
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of booleans.
> >> I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits.
> >> Is there a way I can express it using slots?
> >> 
> >> This idea can be generalized to other types of slots.
> >> 
> >> Noury
> >> 
> > 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[Richard Sargent]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 06:53 Noury Bouraqadi  wrote:

> Thanks Julien. So, what I did experienced is because BooleanSlot is work
> in progress.
> To address my issue using slots, I guess collections should implement
> asBit method (Sent by BooleanSlot).
>

Noury, when modelling something like this, think whether "all collections
should implement asBit". I've added the word all, of course. There are so
many possible collections for which #asBit wouldn't make sense that I would
conclude the hypothesis to be incorrect. Even if you were to implement it
on a single collection class, such as Array, there are still so many
examples where #asBit could not apply.

Perhaps, there could be an e.g. Bits class in the Collection hierarchy.
But, even then, it seems to me that there are so many inherited methods
that wouldn't make sense. What would be the use of #do:? What would
#select: mean? You get the idea.

An alternative possibility, and not the only one, is to model the bits as
part of an integer, small or large.

Of course, for performance, a ByteArray might be a good way to store bits.
It has the benefit that every instance *can* represent bits. But, the
inherited API operates on the bytes, not the bits.

Encapsulation may be the answer. e.g. a Bits object that holds a ByteArray
and provides the API that is needed.


That's a rather long answer, admittedly.



> Noury
>
> > On 20 Mar 2020, at 13:56, Julien Delplanque 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > There is a work in progress prototype slot named BooleanSlot in the
> Slot-Example package built-in the image.
> >
> > I think this slot does what you want.
> >
> > So, the answer is yes, it is possible to do that. But you will need to
> fix todos left in BooleanSlot methods.
> >
> > Julien
> >
> > Le 20/03/20 à 12:24, N. Bouraqadi a écrit :
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of
> booleans.
> >> I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits.
> >> Is there a way I can express it using slots?
> >>
> >> This idea can be generalized to other types of slots.
> >>
> >> Noury
> >>
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[Noury Bouraqadi]

Thanks Julien. So, what I did experienced is because BooleanSlot is work in 
progress.
To address my issue using slots, I guess collections should implement asBit 
method (Sent by BooleanSlot).

Noury

> On 20 Mar 2020, at 13:56, Julien Delplanque  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> There is a work in progress prototype slot named BooleanSlot in the 
> Slot-Example package built-in the image.
> 
> I think this slot does what you want.
> 
> So, the answer is yes, it is possible to do that. But you will need to fix 
> todos left in BooleanSlot methods.
> 
> Julien
> 
> Le 20/03/20 à 12:24, N. Bouraqadi a écrit :
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of booleans.
>> I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits.
>> Is there a way I can express it using slots?
>> 
>> This idea can be generalized to other types of slots.
>> 
>> Noury
>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[Julien Delplanque]

Hello,

There is a work in progress prototype slot named BooleanSlot in the 
Slot-Example package built-in the image.


I think this slot does what you want.

So, the answer is yes, it is possible to do that. But you will need to 
fix todos left in BooleanSlot methods.


Julien

Le 20/03/20 à 12:24, N. Bouraqadi a écrit :

Hi,

Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of booleans.
I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits.
Is there a way I can express it using slots?

This idea can be generalized to other types of slots.

Noury

Re: [Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[K K Subbu]

On 20/03/20 4:54 PM, N. Bouraqadi wrote:

Hi,

Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of booleans.
I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits.
Is there a way I can express it using slots?


What do the bits represent? Is there an ordering among these booleans?

You could use a Set of integers (for ordinals) or symbols (for cardinals 
like flags).


HTH .. Subbu

[Pharo-users] Slots vs collections

[N. Bouraqadi]

Hi,

Suppose I have an instance variable referencing a collection of booleans.
I want to have all elements of the collection be stored as bits. 
Is there a way I can express it using slots?

This idea can be generalized to other types of slots.

Noury