[Phono-L] opera plugs?
Hi Is someone still making those little brass plugs for Edison Opera oil holes, and about how much are they going for these days (set of 4)? Thx. Allen ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs?
Not that I know of and I don't think there has been anybody making them for quite a while. I would also be interested if any are available. On 07/11/2011 02:31 PM, allena...@aol.com wrote: Hi Is someone still making those little brass plugs for Edison Opera oil holes, and about how much are they going for these days (set of 4)? Thx. Allen ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] shrinking cylinder speed?
Hi all, quick question after a long absence: if a given point along the circumference of a cylinder passes a fixed position exactly 160 times per minute, why would the pitch change? Even if it shrunk to half its size, but was still played at 160 rpm, the wavelengths of the recorded frequencies in the groove wouldn't change in relation to playback time. They'd be quieter, for sure, but that's about it. It's a linear velocity system -- it's not the same as a disc record, where shrinkage towards the spindle WOULD make a difference, since the groove-to-stylus speed changes relative to diameter of stylus path. (Of course, testing that would require a shifting disc groove that would coil like a spring as the diameter decreased, an example of how theoretical physics don't always translate to a physical world.) If the cylinder's rotation was powered by a motor capstan with a rubber wheel attached to it that was in direct contact with the cylinder surface, there might be the tiniest amount of change in the speed, but at 160rpm (speaking in real-world terms here), the maximum shrinkage that would still allow a decent mandrel fit would be negligible. If we're talking about a difference in musical pitch that might render playback audibly inaccurate, I think even this example would be undetectable by even the most musical ears. I'm a career musician who has had (documented) perfect pitch for nearly 40 years, and I can only distinguish the difference between 78rpm and 80rpm (a difference of 2.5%, surely more than the average cylinder shrinkage, right?) in a direct A/B comparison, and even then with some difficulty. As a cylinder phonograph transfers its motor power to a non-shrinking mandrel and not the cylinder directly, I'm calling this a wives' tale. Best,Robert PS - 1/16 of shrinkage of a 2-5/32 cylinder comes out to a difference of 2.898%. What percent of 160rpm that would translate to in a capstan/rubber wheel-driven system is something I have no idea how to compute! Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:54:51 -0500 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com Some collectors have noticed that the Blue Amberol records shrink over time. After ~100 years this shrinkage is not insignificant. Even if the BA was recorded with exactly 160 RPM playback in mind due to this age related shrinkage the pitch is now incorrect. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs?
Pardon my ignorance, but what are Opera plugs and what are they used for? Harvey Kravitz From: Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 2:19:27 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs? Not that I know of and I don't think there has been anybody making them for quite a while. I would also be interested if any are available. On 07/11/2011 02:31 PM, allena...@aol.com wrote: Hi Is someone still making those little brass plugs for Edison Opera oil holes, and about how much are they going for these days (set of 4)? Thx. Allen ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] shrinking cylinder speed?
There is both radial and axial shrinkage. Beyond that, how did Edison Co. determine 160 RPM? On 07/11/2011 05:20 PM, Robert Wright wrote: Hi all, quick question after a long absence: if a given point along the circumference of a cylinder passes a fixed position exactly 160 times per minute, why would the pitch change? Even if it shrunk to half its size, but was still played at 160 rpm, the wavelengths of the recorded frequencies in the groove wouldn't change in relation to playback time. They'd be quieter, for sure, but that's about it. It's a linear velocity system -- it's not the same as a disc record, where shrinkage towards the spindle WOULD make a difference, since the groove-to-stylus speed changes relative to diameter of stylus path. (Of course, testing that would require a shifting disc groove that would coil like a spring as the diameter decreased, an example of how theoretical physics don't always translate to a physical world.) If the cylinder's rotation was powered by a motor capstan with a rubber wheel attached to it that was in direct contact with the cylinder surface, there might be the tiniest amount of change in the speed, but at 160rpm (speaking in real-world terms here), the maximum shrinkage that would still allow a decent mandrel fit would be negligible. If we're talking about a difference in musical pitch that might render playback audibly inaccurate, I think even this example would be undetectable by even the most musical ears. I'm a career musician who has had (documented) perfect pitch for nearly 40 years, and I can only distinguish the difference between 78rpm and 80rpm (a difference of 2.5%, surely more than the average cylinder shrinkage, right?) in a direct A/B comparison, and even then with some difficulty. As a cylinder phonograph transfers its motor power to a non-shrinking mandrel and not the cylinder directly, I'm calling this a wives' tale. Best,Robert PS - 1/16 of shrinkage of a 2-5/32 cylinder comes out to a difference of 2.898%. What percent of 160rpm that would translate to in a capstan/rubber wheel-driven system is something I have no idea how to compute! Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:54:51 -0500 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com Some collectors have noticed that the Blue Amberol records shrink over time. After ~100 years this shrinkage is not insignificant. Even if the BA was recorded with exactly 160 RPM playback in mind due to this age related shrinkage the pitch is now incorrect. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs?
Stoppers for the oil holes to keep dirt out. On 07/11/2011 06:25 PM, harvey kravitz wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what are Opera plugs and what are they used for? Harvey Kravitz From: Richrich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph Listphono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 2:19:27 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs? Not that I know of and I don't think there has been anybody making them for quite a while. I would also be interested if any are available. On 07/11/2011 02:31 PM, allena...@aol.com wrote: Hi Is someone still making those little brass plugs for Edison Opera oil holes, and about how much are they going for these days (set of 4)? Thx. Allen ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Retail Cylinder Box???
Hi Steve, Here is the scan of the other side of the box. http://www.preservemymoney.com/pictures/Edison_3_Box-2.jpg From: steve_nor...@msn.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 22:17:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Edison Retail Cylinder Box??? I would appreciate the scan, no hurry. Your photo was very nice, much nicer than the other one I have. I enjoy photos of things I will likely never see in person. From: vinyl.visi...@live.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:00:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Edison Retail Cylinder Box??? I can scan the other side with the old couple on it. At the moment, I am re-inforcing the seams from the inside. A couple of the flaps were off and in the bottom of the box, so I decided to re-attach them by gluing strips from an old record sleeve to the inside for hinges. The date on the box is 1905. I'll try to scan it as soon as the glue dries... From: steve_nor...@msn.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 19:52:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Edison Retail Cylinder Box??? Back when I used to look at all the Edison cylinder records on eBay I saw about 6 of them for sale on eBay over the years. I saved a photo of the 3 pack, it has the old couple listening on the other side. The old couple has a copyright of 190 and I cannot see the last number. It looks like the box itself has drawings of the cylinder record boxes with the cardboard peg inside that date from around then end of 1902 to 1904. Do you have a photo of the other side? I always thought they were the inside box for mailing cylinders. Steve From: vinyl.visi...@live.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 18:39:59 -0400 Subject: [Phono-L] Edison Retail Cylinder Box??? I'm sure someone on the list can identify this box. It appears to be a three pack from 1905. Questions: What was it used for? Was it a special deal to buy three cylinders? How common/uncommon is this box? Does anyone have one like it? What would be a relative value? Any other information? This came from the recent phonograph auction in Raleigh, NC and no collectors that I know have ever seen one... http://www.preservemymoney.com/pictures/Edison_3_Box.jpg ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] shrinking cylinder speed?
Not sure, I know that 33.3rpm was determined (at random) by some readily available reduction gears that were applied to the electric 78rpm motors of the day, or so I have heard/read regarding Pict-ur-music discs -- if memory serves. I wonder how Thom came up with 160. There were other speeds as well, weren't there? I'm sure Pathe players ran at weird speeds, just because Pathe did everything kinda non-'standard', but were earlier Edisons anything other than 160? Radial and axial shrinkage would have no effect on musical pitch of a given cylinder, as the groove speed (relative to stationary stylus) would decrease proportionately with the cylinder's size; i.e., if the cylinder shrunk 3%, so would the relative groove speed, so the pitch would remain constant. As an illustration: 160rpm comes to 2.6 revs per second. If we scratched 100 perfectly spaced lines 1/8 deep along the length of a blank cylinder and played it at 160rpm, we'd hear a pitch of 266. Hz (a little bit sharp of C below middle C). If we shaved 1/16 off of its surface (or any amount shy of 1/8, actually), we'd still hear the exact same frequency by playing it back at 160rpm (albeit with less volume). In order for the pitch of a shrunken cylinder to change, the relative groove speed would have to change, and that would require the grooves to contract like a boa constrictor on its prey, and as the grooves are a part of the physical surface, that ain't gonna happen. Best, Robert Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:09:08 -0500 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] shrinking cylinder speed? There is both radial and axial shrinkage. Beyond that, how did Edison Co. determine 160 RPM? On 07/11/2011 05:20 PM, Robert Wright wrote: Hi all, quick question after a long absence: if a given point along the circumference of a cylinder passes a fixed position exactly 160 times per minute, why would the pitch change? Even if it shrunk to half its size, but was still played at 160 rpm, the wavelengths of the recorded frequencies in the groove wouldn't change in relation to playback time. They'd be quieter, for sure, but that's about it. It's a linear velocity system -- it's not the same as a disc record, where shrinkage towards the spindle WOULD make a difference, since the groove-to-stylus speed changes relative to diameter of stylus path. (Of course, testing that would require a shifting disc groove that would coil like a spring as the diameter decreased, an example of how theoretical physics don't always translate to a physical world.) If the cylinder's rotation was powered by a motor capstan with a rubber wheel attached to it that was in direct contact with the cylinder surface, there might be the tiniest amount of change in the speed, but at 160rpm (speaking in real-world terms here), the maximum shrinkage that would still allow a decent mandrel fit would be negligible. If we're talking about a difference in musical pitch that might render playback audibly inaccurate, I think even this example would be undetectable by even the most musical ears. I'm a career musician who has had (documented) perfect pitch for nearly 40 years, and I can only distinguish the difference between 78rpm and 80rpm (a difference of 2.5%, surely more than the average cylinder shrinkage, right?) in a direct A/B comparison, and even then with some difficulty. As a cylinder phonograph transfers its motor power to a non-shrinking mandrel and not the cylinder directly, I'm calling this a wives' tale. Best,Robert PS - 1/16 of shrinkage of a 2-5/32 cylinder comes out to a difference of 2.898%. What percent of 160rpm that would translate to in a capstan/rubber wheel-driven system is something I have no idea how to compute! Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:54:51 -0500 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com Some collectors have noticed that the Blue Amberol records shrink over time. After ~100 years this shrinkage is not insignificant. Even if the BA was recorded with exactly 160 RPM playback in mind due to this age related shrinkage the pitch is now incorrect. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs?
Were these used on Diamond disk also? They have oil holes, too. Harvey Kravitz From: Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 5:10:18 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs? Stoppers for the oil holes to keep dirt out. On 07/11/2011 06:25 PM, harvey kravitz wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what are Opera plugs and what are they used for? Harvey Kravitz From: Richrich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph Listphono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 2:19:27 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] opera plugs? Not that I know of and I don't think there has been anybody making them for quite a while. I would also be interested if any are available. On 07/11/2011 02:31 PM, allena...@aol.com wrote: Hi Is someone still making those little brass plugs for Edison Opera oil holes, and about how much are they going for these days (set of 4)? Thx. Allen ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] shrinking cylinder speed?
The physical surface shrinks. This is why they were recorded at a speed different than the 160 desired final result. The actual question was how was the 160 RPM speed checked? And with an accuracy of? Or the actual mastering speed. On 07/11/2011 09:13 PM, Robert Wright wrote: Not sure, I know that 33.3rpm was determined (at random) by some readily available reduction gears that were applied to the electric 78rpm motors of the day, or so I have heard/read regarding Pict-ur-music discs -- if memory serves. I wonder how Thom came up with 160. There were other speeds as well, weren't there? I'm sure Pathe players ran at weird speeds, just because Pathe did everything kinda non-'standard', but were earlier Edisons anything other than 160? Radial and axial shrinkage would have no effect on musical pitch of a given cylinder, as the groove speed (relative to stationary stylus) would decrease proportionately with the cylinder's size; i.e., if the cylinder shrunk 3%, so would the relative groove speed, so the pitch would remain constant. As an illustration: 160rpm comes to 2.6 revs per second. If we scratched 100 perfectly spaced lines 1/8 deep along the length of a blank cylinder and played it at 160rpm, we'd hear a pitch of 266. Hz (a little bit sharp of C below middle C). If we shaved 1/16 off of its surface (or any amount shy of 1/8, actually), we'd still hear the exact same frequency by playing it back at 160rpm (albeit with less volume). In order for the pitch of a shrunken cylinder to change, the relative groove speed would have to change, and that would require the grooves to contract like a boa constrictor on its prey, and as the grooves are a part of the physical surface, that ain't gonn a happen. Best, Robert Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:09:08 -0500 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] shrinking cylinder speed? There is both radial and axial shrinkage. Beyond that, how did Edison Co. determine 160 RPM? On 07/11/2011 05:20 PM, Robert Wright wrote: Hi all, quick question after a long absence: if a given point along the circumference of a cylinder passes a fixed position exactly 160 times per minute, why would the pitch change? Even if it shrunk to half its size, but was still played at 160 rpm, the wavelengths of the recorded frequencies in the groove wouldn't change in relation to playback time. They'd be quieter, for sure, but that's about it. It's a linear velocity system -- it's not the same as a disc record, where shrinkage towards the spindle WOULD make a difference, since the groove-to-stylus speed changes relative to diameter of stylus path. (Of course, testing that would require a shifting disc groove that would coil like a spring as the diameter decreased, an example of how theoretical physics don't always translate to a physical world.) If the cylinder's rotation was powered by a motor capstan with a rubber wheel attached to it that was in direct contact with the cylinder surface, there might be the tiniest amount of change in the speed, but at 160rpm (speaking in real-world terms here), the maximum shrinkage that would still allow a decent mandrel fit would be negligible. If we're talking about a difference in musical pitch that might render playback audibly inaccurate, I think even this example would be undetectable by even the most musical ears. I'm a career musician who has had (documented) perfect pitch for nearly 40 years, and I can only distinguish the difference between 78rpm and 80rpm (a difference of 2.5%, surely more than the average cylinder shrinkage, right?) in a direct A/B comparison, and even then with some difficulty. As a cylinder phonograph transfers its motor power to a non-shrinking mandrel and not the cylinder directly, I'm calling this a wives' tale. Best,Robert PS - 1/16 of shrinkage of a 2-5/32 cylinder comes out to a difference of 2.898%. What percent of 160rpm that would translate to in a capstan/rubber wheel-driven system is something I have no idea how to compute! Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:54:51 -0500 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com Some collectors have noticed that the Blue Amberol records shrink over time. After ~100 years this shrinkage is not insignificant. Even if the BA was recorded with exactly 160 RPM playback in mind due to this age related shrinkage the pitch is now incorrect. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
