[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
hi all i found also real clock oil is expensive i am a clock collector also and have some that i got years ago best zono In a message dated 7/19/2008 4:10:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rich-mail at octoxol.com writes: Steve, Sewing machine oil is the bad one. Clock oil has RO inhibitors in it and starts as a highly refined base stock. It is OK and lasts for a very long time. It is a bit thin however and probably only should be used on governors. Steven Medved wrote: Hello Rich, I really appreciate this, I thought clock oil did not turn to varnish, but now I know. I am happy to learn about clock oil, I believe I have some. It is yellow and in an oiler like on the clock site. I always appreciate learning from you. Steve Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:05:50 -0500 From: rich-mail at octoxol.com To: phono-l at oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Most sewing machine oil is a pure very light weight mineral oil and usually is devoid of any RO additive. It tends to oxidize over time to a carbon based varnish. RO is Rust and Oxidation, rust for the metal that is lubed and oxidation for the lubricant. Clock oil is a much higher refined product and does contain additives. If it is synthetic clock oil it will last almost forever and does not creep. Spring oil is another clock item that the phono folks should pick up on. Springs in open barrels probably should be greased, use a synthetic grease or you will be doing the job again in a couple of years. Steven Medved wrote: What is clock oil and how does it differ from sewing machine oil?Steve Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0500 From: rich-mail at octoxol.com To: phono-l at oldcrank.org Su bj ect: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Dissimilar metals are self lubricating - no lube required. Similar metals require a very light coating of very pure oil, preferably synthetic. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org **Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr000520)
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Hello Rich, I really appreciate this, I thought clock oil did not turn to varnish, but now I know. I am happy to learn about clock oil, I believe I have some. It is yellow and in an oiler like on the clock site. I always appreciate learning from you. Steve Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:05:50 -0500 From: rich-mail at octoxol.com To: phono-l at oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Most sewing machine oil is a pure very light weight mineral oil and usually is devoid of any RO additive. It tends to oxidize over time to a carbon based varnish. RO is Rust and Oxidation, rust for the metal that is lubed and oxidation for the lubricant. Clock oil is a much higher refined product and does contain additives. If it is synthetic clock oil it will last almost forever and does not creep. Spring oil is another clock item that the phono folks should pick up on. Springs in open barrels probably should be greased, use a synthetic grease or you will be doing the job again in a couple of years. Steven Medved wrote: What is clock oil and how does it differ from sewing machine oil?SteveDate: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0500 From: rich-mail at octoxol.com To: phono-l at oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Dissimilar metals are self lubricating - no lube required. Similar metals require a very light coating of very pure oil, preferably synthetic. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
If the steel runs against another steel gear it will work fine. It does not take much. phonofolks at aol.com wrote: Is using SAE 30 synthetic motor oil advisable to lube steel phonograph gears? -Original Message- From: Rich rich-mail at octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Most sewing machine oil is a pure very light weight mineral oil and usually is devoid of any RO additive. It tends to oxidize over time to a carbon based varnish. RO is Rust and Oxidation, rust for the metal that is lubed and oxidation for the lubricant. Clock oil is a much higher refined product and does contain additives. If it is synthetic clock oil it will last almost forever and does not creep. Spring oil is another clock item that the phono folks should pick up on. Springs in open barrels probably should be greased, use a synthetic grease or you will be doing the job again in a couple of years. Steven Medved wrote: What is clock oil and how does it differ from sewing machine oil? Steve Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0500 From: rich-mail at octoxol.com To: phono-l at oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Dissimilar metals are self lubricating - no lube required. Similar metals require a very light coating of very pure oil, preferably synthetic. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
I usually grease gears and oil bearings on phonos. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stitt Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:35 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Agreed, other than pivots, which require very little oil the verge and escapement may be oiled. Whale oil anyone? On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Rich rich-mail at octoxol.com wrote: You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Why would oil ruin the phonograph? Is it an issue of uneven wear with dissimilar materials? Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:29 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Whale oil comes from an endangered species and if you have any you are in trouble. Synthetic works well and is not endangered. Mike Stitt wrote: Agreed, other than pivots, which require very little oil the verge and escapement may be oiled. Whale oil anyone? On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Rich rich-mail at octoxol.com wrote: You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap.
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
I think when he said he oiled the gears he meant the pivots. I know the buyer and he is a long time collector and well versed in phonograph repair and maintenance - Original Message - From: Mike Stitt smst...@gmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Agreed, other than pivots, which require very little oil the verge and escapement may be oiled. Whale oil anyone? On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Rich rich-mail at octoxol.com wrote: You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.11/1553 - Release Date: 7/15/2008 5:48 AM
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
The issue with using oil or grease on metal parts is whether it dries up and gets sticky over time. This can be especially detrimental on very low-torque mechanisms such as the escapement or verge of a clockwork. Also, oiling must be done with the right formula when applied to non-metallic surfaces such as the fiber gears on some phonographs. Some people prefer not to oil fiber gears at all. Some fiber gears are designed to run dry if they mesh with a highly polished worm gear. But high-torque gears such as the winding gears where the crank shaft meshes with the spring barrel and the output or bull gear on the spring barrel on phonographs should be lubricated with a heavy oil or grease. These are often steel-on-steel gears. I restore both clocks and phonos and I usually grease the high-torque gears on the spring barrel of phonos and use a 20 weight or so oil on all the other metal gears, including the high-speed governor gears and pivots. I actually use a mixture of petroleum oil and a PTFE additive such as Slick 50 for my middle weight applications. The PTFE works especially well on sliding surfaces such as the ways that support the reproducer on cylinder phonos. Sliding surfaces lubricated this way hold their lubricity for a very long time. Clocks have considerably lower torque in their spring barrels, so a medium weight oil is all that's necessary on them. Then I oil the pivots and higher speed gears with a very light clock oil. These oils are designed not to gunk up and won't get sticky. I do not oil the escapement mechanism at all, whether pendulum or balance wheel type, although I do oil their pivots with the light oil. I agree that 3-in-1 oil is not good for these purposes. And WD-40 is a BAD idea as it gets sticky quite quickly when the solvent evaporates from it. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Why would oil ruin the phonograph? Is it an issue of uneven wear with dissimilar materials? Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:29 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Dissimilar metals are self lubricating - no lube required. Similar metals require a very light coating of very pure oil, preferably synthetic. Ron L wrote: Why would oil ruin the phonograph? Is it an issue of uneven wear with dissimilar materials? Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:29 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Oddly the people I know that do clock repair for a living use oil sparingly.' on the escapement. The typical brass escape wheel takes it's toll on the steel verge..IMO Mike On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Greg Bogantz gbogantz1 at charter.net wrote: The issue with using oil or grease on metal parts is whether it dries up and gets sticky over time. This can be especially detrimental on very low-torque mechanisms such as the escapement or verge of a clockwork. Also, oiling must be done with the right formula when applied to non-metallic surfaces such as the fiber gears on some phonographs. Some people prefer not to oil fiber gears at all. Some fiber gears are designed to run dry if they mesh with a highly polished worm gear. But high-torque gears such as the winding gears where the crank shaft meshes with the spring barrel and the output or bull gear on the spring barrel on phonographs should be lubricated with a heavy oil or grease. These are often steel-on-steel gears. I restore both clocks and phonos and I usually grease the high-torque gears on the spring barrel of phonos and use a 20 weight or so oil on all the other metal gears, including the high-speed governor gears and pivots. I actually use a mixture of petroleum oil and a PTFE additive such as Slick 50 for my middle weight applications. The PTFE works especially well on sliding surfaces such as the ways that support the reproducer on cylinder phonos. Sliding surfaces lubricated this way hold their lubricity for a very long time. Clocks have considerably lower torque in their spring barrels, so a medium weight oil is all that's necessary on them. Then I oil the pivots and higher speed gears with a very light clock oil. These oils are designed not to gunk up and won't get sticky. I do not oil the escapement mechanism at all, whether pendulum or balance wheel type, although I do oil their pivots with the light oil. I agree that 3-in-1 oil is not good for these purposes. And WD-40 is a BAD idea as it gets sticky quite quickly when the solvent evaporates from it. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Ron L lherault at bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Why would oil ruin the phonograph? Is it an issue of uneven wear with dissimilar materials? Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:29 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
I've read that one can use powdered graphite to lube fiber gears. Oil can soften the fiber material. If the story of the raw material for fiber gears is to be believed, the fiber material is naturally lubed. Ewww. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Greg Bogantz Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:30 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling snip. Some people prefer not to oil fiber gears at all. Some fiber gears are designed to run dry if they mesh with a highly polished worm gear. snip
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
I never imagined that my ill-begotten terminology would generate such a remarkably detailed response. Thanks for the advanced education seminar on the proper lubrication standards of the Talking Machine. I hope to receive at least 3 continuing education credits for attending this course. Bruce - Original Message - From: Greg Bogantz gbogan...@charter.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling The issue with using oil or grease on metal parts is whether it dries up and gets sticky over time. This can be especially detrimental on very low-torque mechanisms such as the escapement or verge of a clockwork. Also, oiling must be done with the right formula when applied to non-metallic surfaces such as the fiber gears on some phonographs. Some people prefer not to oil fiber gears at all. Some fiber gears are designed to run dry if they mesh with a highly polished worm gear. But high-torque gears such as the winding gears where the crank shaft meshes with the spring barrel and the output or bull gear on the spring barrel on phonographs should be lubricated with a heavy oil or grease. These are often steel-on-steel gears. I restore both clocks and phonos and I usually grease the high-torque gears on the spring barrel of phonos and use a 20 weight or so oil on all the other metal gears, including the high-speed governor gears and pivots. I actually use a mixture of petroleum oil and a PTFE additive such as Slick 50 for my middle weight applications. The PTFE works especially well on sliding surfaces such as the ways that support the reproducer on cylinder phonos. Sliding surfaces lubricated this way hold their lubricity for a very long time. Clocks have considerably lower torque in their spring barrels, so a medium weight oil is all that's necessary on them. Then I oil the pivots and higher speed gears with a very light clock oil. These oils are designed not to gunk up and won't get sticky. I do not oil the escapement mechanism at all, whether pendulum or balance wheel type, although I do oil their pivots with the light oil. I agree that 3-in-1 oil is not good for these purposes. And WD-40 is a BAD idea as it gets sticky quite quickly when the solvent evaporates from it. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Ron L lherault at bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Why would oil ruin the phonograph? Is it an issue of uneven wear with dissimilar materials? Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:29 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
The oil collects dust and wear particles, all oil collects dust and wear particles. When applied to the common brass in mesh with steel the dust and wear particles are embedded in the softer material and serve as an abrasive to wear the harder material. Brass against steel tends to be self lubricating. That is why it is used. The antique fiber gears are not supposed to be lubricated either, the oil attacks the resin and ruins them. And that is why Edison switched to a steel gear from fiber in the Opera. The winding gear and pawl is similar metal. The output gear may be similar or dissimilar depending on the manufacturer.
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
No credit until you take the quiz next period, Bruce. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of BruceY Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:44 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling I never imagined that my ill-begotten terminology would generate such a remarkably detailed response. Thanks for the advanced education seminar on the proper lubrication standards of the Talking Machine. I hope to receive at least 3 continuing education credits for attending this course. Bruce - Original Message - From: Greg Bogantz gbogan...@charter.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling The issue with using oil or grease on metal parts is whether it dries up and gets sticky over time. This can be especially detrimental on very low-torque mechanisms such as the escapement or verge of a clockwork. Also, oiling must be done with the right formula when applied to non-metallic surfaces such as the fiber gears on some phonographs. Some people prefer not to oil fiber gears at all. Some fiber gears are designed to run dry if they mesh with a highly polished worm gear. But high-torque gears such as the winding gears where the crank shaft meshes with the spring barrel and the output or bull gear on the spring barrel on phonographs should be lubricated with a heavy oil or grease. These are often steel-on-steel gears. I restore both clocks and phonos and I usually grease the high-torque gears on the spring barrel of phonos and use a 20 weight or so oil on all the other metal gears, including the high-speed governor gears and pivots. I actually use a mixture of petroleum oil and a PTFE additive such as Slick 50 for my middle weight applications. The PTFE works especially well on sliding surfaces such as the ways that support the reproducer on cylinder phonos. Sliding surfaces lubricated this way hold their lubricity for a very long time. Clocks have considerably lower torque in their spring barrels, so a medium weight oil is all that's necessary on them. Then I oil the pivots and higher speed gears with a very light clock oil. These oils are designed not to gunk up and won't get sticky. I do not oil the escapement mechanism at all, whether pendulum or balance wheel type, although I do oil their pivots with the light oil. I agree that 3-in-1 oil is not good for these purposes. And WD-40 is a BAD idea as it gets sticky quite quickly when the solvent evaporates from it. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Ron L lherault at bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Why would oil ruin the phonograph? Is it an issue of uneven wear with dissimilar materials? Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:29 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling You do not oil gears except in special cases. Many people are not swayed by sound engineering practices and proceed to ruin good phonographs. Clocks have brass meshed with steel and so do most phonographs. IF you find similar materials meshed with each other then an extremely light coat is beneficial. Use a synthetic oil or a clock oil. The 3 in 1 oil is crap. Mike Stitt wrote: The recent thread about the AB MacDonald brings up a good question. Among the many things I collect includes clocks. Now in the world of clocks you never oil gears, no and no. Should you oil gears in phonographs? Would the higher rate of speed of the governor be a rationale? Would the presumed higher loads from a larger spring dictate oiling? I do and have oiled phonograph gears. Should we? And break the clock rule? Mike ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
This is a lot of fun. Dust can and does exist on un-oiled things. Many clocks tho' not dust proof live in a reasonably clean environment, self contained. So is there a measurable worth of oil vs no oil on an escapement other than assumed sterile environment? I had to ask. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Rich rich-mail at octoxol.com wrote: The oil collects dust and wear particles, all oil collects dust and wear particles. When applied to the common brass in mesh with steel the dust and wear particles are embedded in the softer material and serve as an abrasive to wear the harder material. Brass against steel tends to be self lubricating. That is why it is used. The antique fiber gears are not supposed to be lubricated either, the oil attacks the resin and ruins them. And that is why Edison switched to a steel gear from fiber in the Opera. The winding gear and pawl is similar metal. The output gear may be similar or dissimilar depending on the manufacturer. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
My post explains why the steel goes away first. Mike Stitt wrote: Oddly the people I know that do clock repair for a living use oil sparingly.' on the escapement. The typical brass escape wheel takes it's toll on the steel verge..IMO Mike
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
I think that the escapement is designed to be either repaired or replaced periodically. That is why the high dollar clocks use jewel pallets. A light oil helps and the periodic cleaning that is never done any more. Remember those clocks are supposed to be cleaned and lubed on a yearly basis. If you have many clocks that is a tough schedule. I think that is why the guts of the phono are in a case. Dust protection. Mike Stitt wrote: This is a lot of fun. Dust can and does exist on un-oiled things. Many clocks tho' not dust proof live in a reasonably clean environment, self contained. So is there a measurable worth of oil vs no oil on an escapement other than assumed sterile environment? I had to ask.
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
I've used Mike's whale oil. Quite frankly, it smells funny and doesn't perform well in cold weather. Personally, I prefer a fine sewing machine oil rendered from baby seals. Loran On Jul 15, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Rich wrote: Whale oil comes from an endangered species and if you have any you are in trouble. Synthetic works well and is not endangered. Mike Stitt wrote: Agreed, other than pivots, which require very little oil the verge and escapement may be oiled. Whale oil anyone?
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Oh my. Heh. - Original Message - From: Loran Hughes lo...@oldcrank.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling I've used Mike's whale oil. Quite frankly, it smells funny and doesn't perform well in cold weather. Personally, I prefer a fine sewing machine oil rendered from baby seals. Loran
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Last post I promise. The verge wears for reasons stated as well as the fact that a clock verge has two pallets engaging an escape wheel that may have 40 plus teeth. A lot of work for two against the many. Loran's oil gums up after a few years btw. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Robert Wright esroberto at hotmail.com wrote: Oh my. Heh. - Original Message - From: Loran Hughes loran at oldcrank.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling I've used Mike's whale oil. Quite frankly, it smells funny and doesn't perform well in cold weather. Personally, I prefer a fine sewing machine oil rendered from baby seals. Loran ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling
Most sewing machine oil is a pure very light weight mineral oil and usually is devoid of any RO additive. It tends to oxidize over time to a carbon based varnish. RO is Rust and Oxidation, rust for the metal that is lubed and oxidation for the lubricant. Clock oil is a much higher refined product and does contain additives. If it is synthetic clock oil it will last almost forever and does not creep. Spring oil is another clock item that the phono folks should pick up on. Springs in open barrels probably should be greased, use a synthetic grease or you will be doing the job again in a couple of years. Steven Medved wrote: What is clock oil and how does it differ from sewing machine oil? Steve Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0500 From: rich-mail at octoxol.com To: phono-l at oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AB's and gear oiling Dissimilar metals are self lubricating - no lube required. Similar metals require a very light coating of very pure oil, preferably synthetic. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
