[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
Also check to make sure the mandrel has the tensioning steel springs in it. On Sep 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Robert Wright wrote: Last thought -- listen to a cylinder you know well and wait for the speed to drop. Back the reproducer up about 20 or 30 grooves and see if it does it in the same spot, within about 3 or 4 grooves. If so, it's not the mainspring, or anything other than something the carriage encounters near that physical location along the feedscrew, whether the contact point of half-nut to feedscrew, or the shaft the carriage rides along the length of the playback. Forgive me for speaking out of school, but if it were the mainspring, it just sems like there'd be no point at which you had reliable speed. These guys are the experts, but at least give the 30 this 'repeatable error' test first. - Original Message - From: Ken Danckaert kend at lemur.org To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed Your problem is in the mainspring. It needs to be pulled and ALL the old lubrication removed. 40 steel wool and wd40 will do that. Relube and put the spring back in. That will get rid of the problem. DON'T soak it in kerosene or some other short cut to cleaning. The old stuff has got to come off the spring. Ken Danckaert On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Ron L'Herault lherault at bu.edu wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
What a great bunch of replies! Good suggestions, all. Even though many of us have been working on these wonderful time- machines for years, and have accrued mechanical intuition as well as experience, it never hurts to be reminded of all the possibilities. Even though I didn't post the original inquiry, I recognize the value of all the feedback and will print out a line-item summary of the broad range of possible issues, to post in my workshop as a reminder and checklist. In focusing on the minutiae, we sometimes overlook the obvious. Best to all, Andy Baron Santa Fe On Sep 2, 2008, at 7:19 AM, Ron L wrote: The test you suggest is a good one. I'll do it for sure. However, I am pretty sure that the spring could give sufficient energy for correct speed at one point (coils slide by one another) and then, as it uncoils, encounter an area of sticky old grease, impeding proper release of energy, especially since we are dealing with century old springs and equally old lubricant. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org ] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:43 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed Last thought -- listen to a cylinder you know well and wait for the speed to drop. Back the reproducer up about 20 or 30 grooves and see if it does it in the same spot, within about 3 or 4 grooves. If so, it's not the mainspring, or anything other than something the carriage encounters near that physical location along the feedscrew, whether the contact point of half-nut to feedscrew, or the shaft the carriage rides along the length of the playback. Forgive me for speaking out of school, but if it were the mainspring, it just sems like there'd be no point at which you had reliable speed. These guys are the experts, but at least give the 30 this 'repeatable error' test first. - Original Message - From: Ken Danckaert kend at lemur.org To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed Your problem is in the mainspring. It needs to be pulled and ALL the old lubrication removed. 40 steel wool and wd40 will do that. Relube and put the spring back in. That will get rid of the problem. DON'T soak it in kerosene or some other short cut to cleaning. The old stuff has got to come off the spring. Ken Danckaert On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Ron L'Herault lherault at bu.edu wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
What he said. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Baron Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:26 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed What a great bunch of replies! Good suggestions, all. Even though many of us have been working on these wonderful time- machines for years, and have accrued mechanical intuition as well as experience, it never hurts to be reminded of all the possibilities. Even though I didn't post the original inquiry, I recognize the value of all the feedback and will print out a line-item summary of the broad range of possible issues, to post in my workshop as a reminder and checklist. In focusing on the minutiae, we sometimes overlook the obvious. Best to all, Andy Baron Santa Fe On Sep 2, 2008, at 7:19 AM, Ron L wrote: The test you suggest is a good one. I'll do it for sure. However, I am pretty sure that the spring could give sufficient energy for correct speed at one point (coils slide by one another) and then, as it uncoils, encounter an area of sticky old grease, impeding proper release of energy, especially since we are dealing with century old springs and equally old lubricant. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-bounces at oldcrank.org ] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:43 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed Last thought -- listen to a cylinder you know well and wait for the speed to drop. Back the reproducer up about 20 or 30 grooves and see if it does it in the same spot, within about 3 or 4 grooves. If so, it's not the mainspring, or anything other than something the carriage encounters near that physical location along the feedscrew, whether the contact point of half-nut to feedscrew, or the shaft the carriage rides along the length of the playback. Forgive me for speaking out of school, but if it were the mainspring, it just sems like there'd be no point at which you had reliable speed. These guys are the experts, but at least give the 30 this 'repeatable error' test first. - Original Message - From: Ken Danckaert kend at lemur.org To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed Your problem is in the mainspring. It needs to be pulled and ALL the old lubrication removed. 40 steel wool and wd40 will do that. Relube and put the spring back in. That will get rid of the problem. DON'T soak it in kerosene or some other short cut to cleaning. The old stuff has got to come off the spring. Ken Danckaert On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Ron L'Herault lherault at bu.edu wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
Replace the felt pads that bear against the governor disk and skip the oil. Use real felt, F-1 or F-2 grade. Ron L'Herault wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
Hi Ron ~ Is the slowing - resuming interval regular or random? Random indicates a change that can't be predicted such as turns of the mainspring coil binding or slipping, and of course regular slowing - resuming (as you've already cited) indicates that it's related to the rotation of a particular gear or gears, arbor or bushing. Another cause of unpredictable slowing can be mesh of two gears in and out of existing worn-tooth or worn-bushing areas. In general, once there's sufficient loading by the power of the mainspring, the gear shafts move against one end plate or the other in a predictable way, so they don't swim in and out of existing worn areas, but it's possible to have TWO or more issues that interrelate, adding to the seeming randomness of the action and making it difficult to pinpoint the causes. An example of this would be that the mainspring has some binding with resulting loss of power, which in turn causes one or more gear shafts to slide away from their normal lash-seated positions, which in turn causes the mesh or shaft to move in and out of a wear area at the whim of an unpredictable mainspring. Yet another cause for the symptom you describe are gear sides (not the toothed edges) that rub, either against the motor frame or plate, or against another gear. I had a Columbia BN once that had this problem due to a press-fit mainspring output gear that wasn't quite perpendicular to its shaft. The side wall of this output gear would rub on the side of an adjoining gear in a relatively predictable way and was somewhat hard to notice. Mainspring barrel lids that aren't fully seated can cause this as well, although these issues aren't as likely on a geared (no belt) Amberola motor. The key to your search will be how predictable or not the slowing- speeding up routine is. I hope this has given you some direction. Let us know what you find. Andy Baron Santa Fe On Sep 1, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Ron L'Herault wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
I'd check for rust, corrosion, or damage to the feedscrew. - Original Message - From: Ron L'Herault lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l at oldcrank.org; phonolist at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:50 AM Subject: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
Your problem is in the mainspring. It needs to be pulled and ALL the old lubrication removed. 40 steel wool and wd40 will do that. Relube and put the spring back in. That will get rid of the problem. DON'T soak it in kerosene or some other short cut to cleaning. The old stuff has got to come off the spring. Ken Danckaert On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Ron L'Herault lherault at bu.edu wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
Make sure the governor slides easily on it's shaft. You could loosen the screw holding the assembly in position to see if it easily slides back and forth. Of course, the governor would have to be removed from the motor to be able to remove the shaft for proper cleaning. Aaron Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:50:05 -0400 From: Ron L'Herault lherault at bu.edu Subject: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again.
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
Last thought -- listen to a cylinder you know well and wait for the speed to drop. Back the reproducer up about 20 or 30 grooves and see if it does it in the same spot, within about 3 or 4 grooves. If so, it's not the mainspring, or anything other than something the carriage encounters near that physical location along the feedscrew, whether the contact point of half-nut to feedscrew, or the shaft the carriage rides along the length of the playback. Forgive me for speaking out of school, but if it were the mainspring, it just sems like there'd be no point at which you had reliable speed. These guys are the experts, but at least give the 30 this 'repeatable error' test first. - Original Message - From: Ken Danckaert k...@lemur.org To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l at oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed Your problem is in the mainspring. It needs to be pulled and ALL the old lubrication removed. 40 steel wool and wd40 will do that. Relube and put the spring back in. That will get rid of the problem. DON'T soak it in kerosene or some other short cut to cleaning. The old stuff has got to come off the spring. Ken Danckaert On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Ron L'Herault lherault at bu.edu wrote: OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Amberola 30 erratic speed
OK, gang, it is time to tap into the lists' wisdom. I'm working on an Amberola 30. The hook came unsoldered and the reproducer needed a rebuild. Those two easy repairs (the spring was in the case)completed, I tested the phonograph and found that the speed is a bit erratic. It will sound nice, then slow just a bit then return to speed for a while only to slow again. The carriage moves easily and the horn bobbles and rotates as it should. The governor is lubricated and the pad has been oiled. There is no evidence of crud or damage to the governor disk. There were a few teeth on the large hear that had a bit of damage but a bit of judicious filing has cured the noise the damage created, and besides, the speed variation is more random than the cycle of the gear noise. I'm thinking that the mainspring may need to be removed, cleaned and re-lubricated but I thought I might see if there is anything else I missed before tearing it apart. Thanks, Ron L
