Re: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
On 15 August 2011 19:43, LAMP wrote: > Hi all, > This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping > session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within > $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than > keeping them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. > Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 elements > of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so big > session data in mysql than in $_SESSION. > > My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the amount > of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION and > when to store them in mysql? > > Thanks for any help, > LAMP An approach that I've seen recently is to use a nosql (Mongo in the case I have in mind). I'm not an expert on nosql, but the elements I understood from the conversation I had were... 1 - The main purpose of the $_SESSION is to provide a user specific storage. The structure of the $_SESSION is, more often than not, a nested array of values. 2 - Converting the nested structure into a normalised set of tables for a conventional SQL DB is a lot of effort in. 3 - More often than not, the data in the $_SESSION is only of use in the session. So is there any point in having it in a DB (i.e. for reporting/comparing/etc.). Maybe one or two values, but maybe not the entire session. 4 - What happens if you are scaled to tens of thousand of realtime users worldwide AND you are storing data in an SQL server - well, replication, etc comes at a price. 5 - A no-sql store will store all the data for the session in 1 collection per user and therefore when you retrieve or save the session data, only the structure specific to this user is altered rather than potentially many rows in many tables, shared with many other users, all generating their own changes. The more I learn about no-sql (specifically using Mongo in PHP), the more I think that this solves a lot of the problems with very large sites handling very large number of users in many different countries. Of course, only the "temporary" data should be in the session. Maybe your shopping basket and any cached data (purchase history). Things which you may need or have accessed in this session. When you click the "purchase now" button, of course, that goes to the permanent store. Orders are logged, payments made, stock dispatched, etc. That and the analysis of that sort of transaction (OLTP after all is about transactions), is the domain of conventional SQL servers. But, it seems that no-sql is an excellent fit for long-term, user-specific, cached session data. And if you have replication based upon geography (I assume that this is the most likely way to use replication beyond simply scaling/processing power), then as long as you tune your users to the right server, they will always have the latest version of their cached data. -- Richard Quadling Twitter : EE : Zend : PHPDoc @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY : bit.ly/lFnVea -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Newbie question. What is the best structure of a php-app?
Hi, I'm fairly new to PHP but not to programming as such. Currently I sat up XAMPP with xdebug, Netbeans and Eclipse to get a feeling. I can write and run php-files but I am wondering how I should construct a more complex application that runs over several pages between a login and a logout. How would I structure such an application so that it is possible to run it in the debugger from the beginning? E.g. as a simple example I may build an index.html that has a menue with links to 3 php-files. 1) login.php 2) enter_data.php 3) list_data.php as html-links within an ul-list. The user should at first click on login where user/password gets entered an a session starts. Then the application comes back to index.html. Now he might click 2) ... Is it possible to run the whole application from the start on? index.html is no php so xdebug won't process it and therefore the IDEs may start index.html but can't show the stage where the page is just waiting e.g. for a click on "login" and later branch for the other options. Even if I write an index.php that shows the menue eventually the script just dumps the html that'll wait for the following clicks. Those following steps are far more likely in need to be debugged. Is it neccessary to debug those subpages separately even though they need prior steps like login.php that store some infos in a session or cookie that later scripts need to rely on? Can I somehow watch what is going on from the index.html on? Until now I just found documentation that explains the php language. Thats good too but I'd need to get an idea about the "web-app-thinking" that consist of just pages where the designer has to hope that the user stays within the applicationflow instead of clicking unexpectedly on the back-button or just jumping off to some other site if he likes to. In contrast to this desktop-apps seem to be less demanding because I know where a user can navigate from a certain stage within the app and I could step from program start to stop with the debugger if I feel the need to. Is there a tutorial that explains how to build consistent web-apps beyond the details of php language? regards... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Fwd: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Ashley Sheridan wrote: > > >> On Mon, 2011-08-15 at 14:12 -0500, Philip Thompson wrote: >> Crap! I wish this list would have a reply-to list automatically > > It does, just hit the reply to all or reply to list button on your email > client. I know Gmail has both these options, and the client I use > (Evolution) does and is available for a variety of different platforms. > I don't see a Reply-to-List in Gmail, and haven't seen it any any of the other mail clients I have used either. Reply-All is a pretty standard option, though. Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Fwd: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
> On Mon, 2011-08-15 at 14:12 -0500, Philip Thompson wrote: > Crap! I wish this list would have a reply-to list automatically It does, just hit the reply to all or reply to list button on your email client. I know Gmail has both these options, and the client I use (Evolution) does and is available for a variety of different platforms. -- Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
Re: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Stuart Dallas wrote: > > On 15 Aug 2011, at 20:28, LAMP wrote: > > > > > On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Philip Thompson wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:43 PM, LAMP wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping > session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within > $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than > keeping them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. > >> Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 > elements of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so > big session data in mysql than in $_SESSION. > >> > >> My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the > amount of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION > and when to store them in mysql? > >> > >> Thanks for any help, > >> LAMP > >> > >> Hi all. Long time no see. I personally think 30-50 elements in an array > is not a lot of data (unless you're storing hundreds of megs of data per > element). You really have to weigh the pros and cons of using file-based > session storage versus database session storage. With a quick google search, > this article by Chris Shiftlett came up: > http://shiflett.org/articles/storing-sessions-in-a-database. Specially > look at the background section. It goes over a couple reasons to use a > database. While this list is not exhaustive by any means, it should get you > thinking. If the biggest reason for wanting to use a database over the file > system is because of the space, then you may want to reconsider > >> > >> In file-based session storage, the session data is saved in a particular > location (as specified in php.ini). So, if you have 10MB of data, this will > be will stored in a file slightly larger than 10MB because I believe the > data is serialized in some form. This file is accessed upon page load and is > written to for the next page request. File I/O is generally pretty fast... > generally much faster than database I/O. > >> > >> In the database storage, you must run queries to pull the data > necessary. This requires a connection plus the time to query plus the time > to organize the data. If you have 10MB of data, then you still have to pull > all of that from the database, so I don't believe you're getting any speed > advantage. If you're application is running on multiple servers, then you'd > want to consider the database storage. IMO, only use the database (for > session storage) if it solves a problem that can be easily fixed otherwise > by using file-based session storage. > >> > >> Hope that helps, > >> ~Philip > >> > >> -- > >> http://lonestarlightandsound.com/ > > > > > > I apologize for posting not-complete data :-) > > The size of the data is, I believe, small. 1-2 words per array element or > number. No image or something like that is stored in $_SESSION. I believe > no more than few Kb. > > > > My concern is not only speed, than handling (as you said "time to query > plus the time to organize the data..."),as well as security. I read > Shiflett's article but it dates from 2004 and I believe some stuff are > changed too :-) > > > > As I said, I prefer working with $_SESSION instead storing data into > session table, but always wondered is that correct approach. > > Whatever session storage mechanism you use, you can continue to use > $_SESSION. The process Chris describes in his post replaces the engine that > loads and saves the contents of $_SESSION. You might want to read a lot more > about how sessions work before you consider customising the storage > mechanism. > > -Stuart > I don't see that the default file-based session storage as any less secure than another approach. If your session data is only several KB, then just use the default unless you have a specific reason not to... ~Philip
Re: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
On 15 Aug 2011, at 20:28, LAMP wrote: > > On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Philip Thompson wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:43 PM, LAMP wrote: >> Hi all, >> This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping >> session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within >> $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than >> keeping them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. >> Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 elements >> of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so big >> session data in mysql than in $_SESSION. >> >> My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the amount >> of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION and >> when to store them in mysql? >> >> Thanks for any help, >> LAMP >> >> Hi all. Long time no see. I personally think 30-50 elements in an array is >> not a lot of data (unless you're storing hundreds of megs of data per >> element). You really have to weigh the pros and cons of using file-based >> session storage versus database session storage. With a quick google search, >> this article by Chris Shiftlett came up: >> http://shiflett.org/articles/storing-sessions-in-a-database. Specially look >> at the background section. It goes over a couple reasons to use a database. >> While this list is not exhaustive by any means, it should get you thinking. >> If the biggest reason for wanting to use a database over the file system is >> because of the space, then you may want to reconsider >> >> In file-based session storage, the session data is saved in a particular >> location (as specified in php.ini). So, if you have 10MB of data, this will >> be will stored in a file slightly larger than 10MB because I believe the >> data is serialized in some form. This file is accessed upon page load and is >> written to for the next page request. File I/O is generally pretty fast... >> generally much faster than database I/O. >> >> In the database storage, you must run queries to pull the data necessary. >> This requires a connection plus the time to query plus the time to organize >> the data. If you have 10MB of data, then you still have to pull all of that >> from the database, so I don't believe you're getting any speed advantage. If >> you're application is running on multiple servers, then you'd want to >> consider the database storage. IMO, only use the database (for session >> storage) if it solves a problem that can be easily fixed otherwise by using >> file-based session storage. >> >> Hope that helps, >> ~Philip >> >> -- >> http://lonestarlightandsound.com/ > > > I apologize for posting not-complete data :-) > The size of the data is, I believe, small. 1-2 words per array element or > number. No image or something like that is stored in $_SESSION. I believe no > more than few Kb. > > My concern is not only speed, than handling (as you said "time to query plus > the time to organize the data..."),as well as security. I read Shiflett's > article but it dates from 2004 and I believe some stuff are changed too :-) > > As I said, I prefer working with $_SESSION instead storing data into session > table, but always wondered is that correct approach. Whatever session storage mechanism you use, you can continue to use $_SESSION. The process Chris describes in his post replaces the engine that loads and saves the contents of $_SESSION. You might want to read a lot more about how sessions work before you consider customising the storage mechanism. -Stuart -- Stuart Dallas 3ft9 Ltd http://3ft9.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Philip Thompson wrote: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:43 PM, LAMP wrote: Hi all, This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than keeping them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 elements of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so big session data in mysql than in $_SESSION. My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the amount of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION and when to store them in mysql? Thanks for any help, LAMP Hi all. Long time no see. I personally think 30-50 elements in an array is not a lot of data (unless you're storing hundreds of megs of data per element). You really have to weigh the pros and cons of using file-based session storage versus database session storage. With a quick google search, this article by Chris Shiftlett came up: http://shiflett.org/articles/storing-sessions-in-a-database . Specially look at the background section. It goes over a couple reasons to use a database. While this list is not exhaustive by any means, it should get you thinking. If the biggest reason for wanting to use a database over the file system is because of the space, then you may want to reconsider In file-based session storage, the session data is saved in a particular location (as specified in php.ini). So, if you have 10MB of data, this will be will stored in a file slightly larger than 10MB because I believe the data is serialized in some form. This file is accessed upon page load and is written to for the next page request. File I/O is generally pretty fast... generally much faster than database I/O. In the database storage, you must run queries to pull the data necessary. This requires a connection plus the time to query plus the time to organize the data. If you have 10MB of data, then you still have to pull all of that from the database, so I don't believe you're getting any speed advantage. If you're application is running on multiple servers, then you'd want to consider the database storage. IMO, only use the database (for session storage) if it solves a problem that can be easily fixed otherwise by using file- based session storage. Hope that helps, ~Philip -- http://lonestarlightandsound.com/ I apologize for posting not-complete data :-) The size of the data is, I believe, small. 1-2 words per array element or number. No image or something like that is stored in $_SESSION. I believe no more than few Kb. My concern is not only speed, than handling (as you said "time to query plus the time to organize the data..."),as well as security. I read Shiflett's article but it dates from 2004 and I believe some stuff are changed too :-) As I said, I prefer working with $_SESSION instead storing data into session table, but always wondered is that correct approach. Thanks, LAMP
Fwd: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
Crap! I wish this list would have a reply-to list automatically -- Forwarded message -- From: Philip Thompson Date: Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database? To: LAMP On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:43 PM, LAMP wrote: > Hi all, > This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping > session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within > $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than > keeping them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. > Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 > elements of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so > big session data in mysql than in $_SESSION. > > My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the > amount of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION > and when to store them in mysql? > > Thanks for any help, > LAMP > Hi all. Long time no see. I personally think 30-50 elements in an array is not a lot of data (unless you're storing hundreds of megs of data per element). You really have to weigh the pros and cons of using file-based session storage versus database session storage. With a quick google search, this article by Chris Shiftlett came up: http://shiflett.org/articles/storing-sessions-in-a-database. Specially look at the background section. It goes over a couple reasons to use a database. While this list is not exhaustive by any means, it should get you thinking. If the biggest reason for wanting to use a database over the file system is because of the space, then you may want to reconsider In file-based session storage, the session data is saved in a particular location (as specified in php.ini). So, if you have 10MB of data, this will be will stored in a file slightly larger than 10MB because I believe the data is serialized in some form. This file is accessed upon page load and is written to for the next page request. File I/O is generally pretty fast... generally much faster than database I/O. In the database storage, you must run queries to pull the data necessary. This requires a connection plus the time to query plus the time to organize the data. If you have 10MB of data, then you still have to pull all of that from the database, so I don't believe you're getting any speed advantage. If you're application is running on multiple servers, then you'd want to consider the database storage. IMO, only use the database (for session storage) if it solves a problem that can be easily fixed otherwise by using file-based session storage. Hope that helps, ~Philip -- http://lonestarlightandsound.com/ -- http://lonestarlightandsound.com/
Re: [PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
On 15 Aug 2011, at 19:43, LAMP wrote: > This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping > session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within > $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than keeping > them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. > Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 elements > of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so big session > data in mysql than in $_SESSION. > > My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the amount > of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION and when > to store them in mysql? 1) 30-50 array elements says nothing about the size of the data. That's like saying you have 30-50 piece of paper and assuming that means they contain a lot of text. If each array element is simply a number then 30-50 is not even close to being big. 2) Size of data is never good reason why you'd switch your session storage from files to a database. The data still needs to be read and unserialised at the start of a request, and serialised and written back at the end. In fact, with larger amounts of data you may find file-based storage to be faster. -Stuart -- Stuart Dallas 3ft9 Ltd http://3ft9.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Keeping session info in $_SESSION or in database?
Hi all, This is THE question that bothers me for a while... I always was keeping session info, like user ID, organization ID, selected book ID... within $_SESSION array. Main reason is to access and maintain it faster than keeping them inside session table. And, also, one less mysql connection. Though, in last project the $_SESSION grow up to around 30, even 50 elements of the array. And several people mentioned it's better to keep so big session data in mysql than in $_SESSION. My question is pros and cons $_SESSION vs. mysql session. And, if the amount of data is only reason, when is better to keep all data in $_SESSION and when to store them in mysql? Thanks for any help, LAMP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
