php-general Digest 4 Jul 2013 10:42:45 -0000 Issue 8283
php-general Digest 4 Jul 2013 10:42:45 - Issue 8283 Topics (messages 321521 through 321521): Web dev, DB and proper db design. 321521 by: Richard Quadling Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: php-general-digest-subscr...@lists.php.net To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: php-general-digest-unsubscr...@lists.php.net To post to the list, e-mail: php-gene...@lists.php.net -- ---BeginMessage--- Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. ---End Message---
php-general Digest 5 Jul 2013 04:38:25 -0000 Issue 8284
php-general Digest 5 Jul 2013 04:38:25 - Issue 8284 Topics (messages 321522 through 321527): Re: Web dev, DB and proper db design. 321522 by: Tony Marston 321523 by: Jim Giner 321524 by: Lester Caine 321525 by: Andy McKenzie 321526 by: Tamara Temple 321527 by: musicdev Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: php-general-digest-subscr...@lists.php.net To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: php-general-digest-unsubscr...@lists.php.net To post to the list, e-mail: php-gene...@lists.php.net -- ---BeginMessage--- Richard Quadling wrote in message news:CAKUjMCWJ4wiUO904OvYkS53Fsg4PPXa=qbokcvhwfemcpkp...@mail.gmail.com... Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. There is a difference between having a field which is used as a foreign key and having a foreign key constraint defined in the database. Remember that foreign keys can be used in SELECT statements without there being a FK constraint. Constraints are only used in INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE operations, and never used for SELECTs You cannot have relationships in a database without foreign keys, but you can have foreign keys with constraints. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- On 7/4/2013 6:42 AM, Richard Quadling wrote: Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. Im going to guess that your source of such drivel never learned about such things. Probably thinks that a 'key' has to be defined as such in the db, whereas we know what a FK really is. Don't worry. As a former big iron guy and then a c/s guy and now a (new) web guy, things haven't changed. ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Richard Quadling wrote: Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). Depends if you consider MySQL is any use as a real database :) Building the constraints and many other core database features into the code was essential before MySQL had many of the features that real databases have had from the start ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- I think it depends on the application. A lot of small web apps simply don't need any kind of normalization, and it really does make sense to put everything in one table, or a couple of unlinked tables. Therefore, on those apps, there's no need for foreign keys. For instance: I used one in-house application that had two tables: A list of authorized users with their passwords and a couple of other things (administrative role,
[PHP] Web dev, DB and proper db design.
Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard.
[PHP] Re: Web dev, DB and proper db design.
Richard Quadling wrote in message news:CAKUjMCWJ4wiUO904OvYkS53Fsg4PPXa=qbokcvhwfemcpkp...@mail.gmail.com... Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. There is a difference between having a field which is used as a foreign key and having a foreign key constraint defined in the database. Remember that foreign keys can be used in SELECT statements without there being a FK constraint. Constraints are only used in INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE operations, and never used for SELECTs You cannot have relationships in a database without foreign keys, but you can have foreign keys with constraints. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Web dev, DB and proper db design.
On 7/4/2013 6:42 AM, Richard Quadling wrote: Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. Im going to guess that your source of such drivel never learned about such things. Probably thinks that a 'key' has to be defined as such in the db, whereas we know what a FK really is. Don't worry. As a former big iron guy and then a c/s guy and now a (new) web guy, things haven't changed. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Web dev, DB and proper db design.
Richard Quadling wrote: Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). Depends if you consider MySQL is any use as a real database :) Building the constraints and many other core database features into the code was essential before MySQL had many of the features that real databases have had from the start ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Web dev, DB and proper db design.
I think it depends on the application. A lot of small web apps simply don't need any kind of normalization, and it really does make sense to put everything in one table, or a couple of unlinked tables. Therefore, on those apps, there's no need for foreign keys. For instance: I used one in-house application that had two tables: A list of authorized users with their passwords and a couple of other things (administrative role, security level, things like that), and a table that contained information about computers used in the the department. Sure, some of the users had a computer in the department, but not all of them. So there was really no need to link the tables. And since the information stored about the computers was stuff like owner, name, MAC, and IP address, there was no need for foreign keys in that table either: it just wouldn't make sense. Now, anything much more complex then that there's going to be some value in using foreign keys, whether formally (constraints set in the DB) or informally (constraints imposed in the web interface), but it's quite possible the guy had never worked on something where they were needed. -Andy . On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Richard Quadling wrote: Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). Depends if you consider MySQL is any use as a real database :) Building the constraints and many other core database features into the code was essential before MySQL had many of the features that real databases have had from the start ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Web dev, DB and proper db design.
On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Jim Giner jim.gi...@albanyhandball.com wrote: On 7/4/2013 6:42 AM, Richard Quadling wrote: Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. Im going to guess that your source of such drivel never learned about such things. Probably thinks that a 'key' has to be defined as such in the db, whereas we know what a FK really is. Don't worry. As a former big iron guy and then a c/s guy and now a (new) web guy, things haven't changed. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php So, like Jim, I'm just going to speculate your correspondent has never actually designed anything very interesting. I can't really imagine how one does not use foreign keys, unless one does the entire relationship mapping between tables in the source… what a waste that would be. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Web dev, DB and proper db design.
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Tamara Temple tamouse.li...@gmail.comwrote: On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Jim Giner jim.gi...@albanyhandball.com wrote: On 7/4/2013 6:42 AM, Richard Quadling wrote: Hi. I've just had a conversation regarding DB, foreign keys and their benefits. I was told I've never worked on a web application where foreign keys were used in the database. As someone who has spent 25 years working on accounting/epos systems on MS SQL Server (yep, windows) and now in a web environment and hearing the above, ... well, ... slightly concerned. So, in the biggest broadest terms, what do you lot do? DBs with no foreign keys (constrainted or not). ORM builders with manual definition of relationships between the tables. Inline SQL where you have to just remember all the relationships. Views for simple lookups? How do you handle updatable views (does mysql support them?) etc. Is there a difference in those in 'startups' and web only situations, or those doing more traditional development (split that as you like - I'm just trying to get an understanding and not go off on one!). No definitive answers, and I hope I get some wide experiences here. Thanks for looking. Richard. Im going to guess that your source of such drivel never learned about such things. Probably thinks that a 'key' has to be defined as such in the db, whereas we know what a FK really is. Don't worry. As a former big iron guy and then a c/s guy and now a (new) web guy, things haven't changed. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php So, like Jim, I'm just going to speculate your correspondent has never actually designed anything very interesting. I can't really imagine how one does not use foreign keys, unless one does the entire relationship mapping between tables in the source… what a waste that would be. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I completely agree.
[PHP] PHP 5.4.17 released!
Hello! The PHP development team announces the immediate availability of PHP 5.4.17. About 20 bugs were fixed. All users of PHP are encouraged to upgrade to this release. For source downloads of PHP 5.4.17 please visit our downloads page: http://www.php.net/downloads.php Windows binaries can be found on windows.php.net/download/ The list of changes are recorded in the ChangeLog: http://www.php.net/ChangeLog-5.php#5.4.17 Stanislav Malyshev PHP 5.4 Release Master -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
