RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Hello For planning project I like simplistic design and scalability. I describe business objects involved in the project and the processes between them with plain text and schemas. Discuss them with the client. When he confirms these documents I write code according to this functional design/plan. - http://gbg.bg/search -- ! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Richard Lynch mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:31 PM said: Personally, I'd opt for working on the macro first, and making that as clean and clear as you can, really thinking deeply on it. Put it away for a day or two and pull it out. Does it all still make sense? Ok, I can try this. Sounds good. It's much too easy (guilty!) to start diving in and writing code/functions/pages without reflecting enough on the big picture. Yes, and this is what I am trying to avoid. Course, you sometimes have the PHB breathing down your neck who will accuse you of not working if you aren't typing code. Sigh. Time to quit *that* job and look for another one. PS I'm looking for a new job. :-^ Good luck. Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Burhan Khalid mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:56 PM said: One approach that I liked (I forgot what book it was mentioned in) involves using a whiteboard and post-it notes. You put your entities on the post it notes, then draw flow lines on the whiteboard. This way, you can easily move your entities around. Yeah that might work out pretty well. I found a free mind mapping program on www.lifehacker.com called FreeMind (found on 2nd page today). I've yet to try it out (dang thing is only dl'ing at 3.5Kb) but it looks promising. Anyway, my experiences in the past with mind mapping have been pretty good so that might play into your post-it notes idea pretty well. Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
[snip] So my question has to do with planning a project (not necessarily a website in general, but a programming project specifically). I've got Visio 2003 and a pad of paper with a pencil. I'm pretty much willing to try out different methods although I prefer a visual approach. [/snip] +1 for pencil paper or whiteboard. And in the words of Obi Jay, Use the flowchart Chris I know that there is lots of excitement about UML, especially in light of PHP5's better implementation of OOP, but 25+ years of experience tells me that basic flowcharting, before UML (which is not as complex as some would like to make it), will save you several headaches down the road. Keep in mind that flowcharts are living docsif you need to make a change to the code somewhere down the line you can (and should) change the flowchart to reflect it. Another good thing about a flowchart is its ability to describe the big picture as well as the most intricate detail. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
I remember reading that UML was fairly complex. Although brief reading up on it, it didn't seem all that hard. I think the next version is supposed to be simpler. I made a decision about 6 months wether I was going to learn UML or design patterns next. I chose design patterns, and really think I made the right choice. I've picked up some UML in the process, but more importantly, I amy planning for change much better. One of the mantras I've picked up is to figure out what changes in the program and separate it out. How you separate it out is where design patterns come in. I've discovered that design patterns help me plan much better and code much better. After all, it's all about managing change. A few years ago I read an article about where UML was being used. It was mainly in the big companies. Smaller companies found it slowed them down when they needed to get their product to market quickly. This pretty much worked well during the internet boom since it was mainly a bunch of really good programmers trying to create a product that they would see to the end. In a corporate environment, there is always a mix of talent and there is no guarantee the whole group will be there for the product life cycle. Thus UML is practically a must for a corporate environment so that everything can be documented for the next person to pick up quickly. If it's just you and maybe a couple of other people. The old fashioned way works very well. UML is great, but it will probably slow the process down for the sake of good documentation. If you can, go to your nearest paint store and pickup a can or two of chalkboard paint and make an entire wall (or two) of your apartment, house or work, a chalkboard. Wouldn't a 30ft x 8ft chalkboard be nice for diagrams? For a really wicked thinking environment, get a few black lights, turn off the lights, crank the music and work in the dark. The chalk glows in black light, so you'll be able to see what you are doing. On Mar 22, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] So my question has to do with planning a project (not necessarily a website in general, but a programming project specifically). I've got Visio 2003 and a pad of paper with a pencil. I'm pretty much willing to try out different methods although I prefer a visual approach. [/snip] +1 for pencil paper or whiteboard. And in the words of Obi Jay, Use the flowchart Chris I know that there is lots of excitement about UML, especially in light of PHP5's better implementation of OOP, but 25+ years of experience tells me that basic flowcharting, before UML (which is not as complex as some would like to make it), will save you several headaches down the road. Keep in mind that flowcharts are living docsif you need to make a change to the code somewhere down the line you can (and should) change the flowchart to reflect it. Another good thing about a flowchart is its ability to describe the big picture as well as the most intricate detail. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Brent Baisley Systems Architect Landover Associates, Inc. Search Advisory Services for Advanced Technology Environments p: 212.759.6400/800.759.0577 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Brent Baisley wrote: I remember reading that UML was fairly complex. Although brief reading up on it, it didn't seem all that hard. I think the next version is supposed to be simpler. I made a decision about 6 months wether I was going to learn UML or design patterns next. I chose design patterns, what are design patterns? -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
what are design patterns? http://phppatterns.com -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Jay Blanchard mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:47 AM said: +1 for pencil paper or whiteboard. And in the words of Obi Jay, Use the flowchart Chris I would very much like to use flowcharts but I haven't been able to use them effectively yet. That is, I'm not sure how to split up the macro from the micro. Macro being the flow a user would take through the checkout section of the site and micro being how a function works. Keep in mind that flowcharts are living docsif you need to make a change to the code somewhere down the line you can (and should) change the flowchart to reflect it. Good to know. Another good thing about a flowchart is its ability to describe the big picture as well as the most intricate detail. See above. :| Have suggestions? Or maybe if I'm lucky you've got a few sample charts you can send me (PDF/Visio/jpeg)? This thread has been interesting so far. Thanks, Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Well this one hasn't been offered yet: I just subscribed to php|architect and there was an article in either the Feb or March issue (I got them 1 day apart so I don't remember off hand) about a system of design. I'll try not to give too much away, but it used index cards. The index cards each represented a class. They were split down the center and on one side the methods of the class was named and on the right the right, all of the class's dependencies were written down. So a DB class might have a dependancy on the DB software and related functions. A session handling class, however, might call a method of setCookie or sessionHandler or some such. Oh, and for those of you who don't currently subscribe to php|arch, I would suggest it. It has some interesting articles about subjects and technologies relating to php that you won't find elsewhere. Not only that, but these guys know what they're talking about. That's just my $.02 -justin -- Justin Lilly University of South Carolina -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
On Tue, March 22, 2005 8:58 am, Chris W. Parker said: Jay Blanchard mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:47 AM said: +1 for pencil paper or whiteboard. And in the words of Obi Jay, Use the flowchart Chris I would very much like to use flowcharts but I haven't been able to use them effectively yet. That is, I'm not sure how to split up the macro from the micro. Macro being the flow a user would take through the checkout section of the site and micro being how a function works. Personally, I'd opt for working on the macro first, and making that as clean and clear as you can, really thinking deeply on it. Put it away for a day or two and pull it out. Does it all still make sense? Are you REALLY providing the best functionality for the most users as quickly and efficiently as possible? It's much too easy (guilty!) to start diving in and writing code/functions/pages without reflecting enough on the big picture. Course, you sometimes have the PHB breathing down your neck who will accuse you of not working if you aren't typing code. Sigh. Time to quit *that* job and look for another one. PS I'm looking for a new job. :-^ -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Chris W. Parker wrote: Jay Blanchard mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:47 AM said: +1 for pencil paper or whiteboard. And in the words of Obi Jay, Use the flowchart Chris I would very much like to use flowcharts but I haven't been able to use them effectively yet. That is, I'm not sure how to split up the macro from the micro. Macro being the flow a user would take through the checkout section of the site and micro being how a function works. +1 on pen and paper. One approach that I liked (I forgot what book it was mentioned in) involves using a whiteboard and post-it notes. You put your entities on the post it notes, then draw flow lines on the whiteboard. This way, you can easily move your entities around. It really helps when ironing out workflow issues. For example, what happens when a user enters the wrong password in a login form? Easy to figure out by just moving around the sticky notes. Once you have your flow dailed down, then its just a matter of copying it on paper and finalizing it. Keep in mind that flowcharts are living docsif you need to make a change to the code somewhere down the line you can (and should) change the flowchart to reflect it. That sticky-notes + whiteboard helps with dynamic flowcharting a lot. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Hello, This is the only programming list I participate in so that is why I'm asking my question here. I hope no one objects greatly! So my question has to do with planning a project (not necessarily a website in general, but a programming project specifically). I've got Visio 2003 and a pad of paper with a pencil. I'm pretty much willing to try out different methods although I prefer a visual approach. I've googled on this subject quite a bit in the past but haven't really found anything that satisfies me. That is, I've found some short documents on flow charting, but nothing directly related to programming (and what symbols to use, or how detailed to get). I've also tried just writing out some pseudo-code but that always tends to get a little messy when I try it. If I start writing code outright I find myself rethinking a lot stuff once I'm already pretty entrenched in what I've got. Of course this turns into being a major pain going back and revamping stuff. Anyway, I'd like to hear some feedback from the audience as far as what works/doesn't work for you as well as some keyword recommendations that I can feed Google with. Thanks, Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
On Mon, March 21, 2005 2:55 pm, Chris W. Parker said: a pad of paper with a pencil. +1 :-) Seriously, any time I try to plan something out for any kind of programming, I find that a nice big desk surface, and a pencil and paper are the best tools. After I've got things worked out on paper, with all the scratch-outs, circles and arrows, and am happy with the basic design, I then type up something in plain text as my final draft. Not claiming I don't end up revising the hell out of it in development, mind you, but it seems to work, and I catch all the stuff I have enough smarts to anticipate. The stuff I can't anticipate, well, there you are, eh? I've tried Visio and all that stuff, and find myself wasting *WAY* more time lining up the damn boxes than actually thinking about what I want to *do*. YMMV -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
Richard Lynch mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Monday, March 21, 2005 3:44 PM said: On Mon, March 21, 2005 2:55 pm, Chris W. Parker said: a pad of paper with a pencil. +1 Seriously, any time I try to plan something out for any kind of programming, I find that a nice big desk surface, and a pencil and paper are the best tools. [snip] All true. And having read Jason's email I think I'll try to put that graphical process into practice. Doesn't have to be in Visio considering... I've tried Visio and all that stuff, and find myself wasting *WAY* more time lining up the damn boxes than actually thinking about what I want to *do*. Agreed. Thanks, Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
I'm with Richard - lots of scrap paper, couple of nice sharp HB pencils ... let it ferment a bit, then pseudocode in a plain text editor. As for the graphics - well, I have an old template used in Introductory Basic for the Control Data Corporation whatever. Haven't used it since about 1970, but then keypunch machines have been scarce. Cheers - Miles At 08:02 PM 3/21/2005, Chris W. Parker wrote: Richard Lynch mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Monday, March 21, 2005 3:44 PM said: On Mon, March 21, 2005 2:55 pm, Chris W. Parker said: a pad of paper with a pencil. +1 Seriously, any time I try to plan something out for any kind of programming, I find that a nice big desk surface, and a pencil and paper are the best tools. [snip] All true. And having read Jason's email I think I'll try to put that graphical process into practice. Doesn't have to be in Visio considering... I've tried Visio and all that stuff, and find myself wasting *WAY* more time lining up the damn boxes than actually thinking about what I want to *do*. Agreed. Thanks, Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] [semi OT]: Planning projects
On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 18:43, Richard Lynch wrote: On Mon, March 21, 2005 2:55 pm, Chris W. Parker said: a pad of paper with a pencil. +1 +1 For the most part if you're working on this alone, then the pencil, paper approach is probably the best. It doesn't matter how carefully you plan your architecture you WILL want to change it and then not only will you have to change your code, but that big fancy time-sucking, visio diagram. On the other hand if you are working with a bunch of people (and this is especially true if they are remote from one another) then you really MUST have some kind of clear and concise plan in place or you'll be stepping all over each other. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
