Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On 25 September 2010 00:11, Daniel Kolbo dko...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/24/2010 8:35 AM, Peter Lind wrote: On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. Regards Peter I would consider the post to be a discussion among the community to discuss possible improvements for php, to help progress the language to handle the situations faced by the users of the language, and hey maybe learn something along the way. I certainly wouldn't consider the post to be an avenue to belittle members of the community. For some it's half empty, for others half full. ` I apologize for the wording of my post - I did not intend to belittle anyone. Your posts seem to me, however, rather typical: I am coming up against this problem, why doesn't the language let me solve it the way I want it to? - something this last response also suggests (I would consider the post to be a discussion among the community to discuss possible improvements for php). Many people have already pointed out that there's likely a much better solution to the problem at hand, yet you still insist that the language should be improved (the latest idea being a __cast() function) - and I cannot see you once commenting on the composition strategy. Was the ... and hey maybe learn something along the way. meant only for others? Anyway, seeing as my glass is half-empty and I'm not adding anything constructive to thread I'll refrain from posting more. Regards Peter -- hype WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: http://twitter.com/kafe15 /hype -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On 9/24/2010 9:49 AM, chris h wrote: Gang of Four http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Elements-Reusable-Object-Oriented/dp/0201633612 An excellent book on OOP. Chris H. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: chris h On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Peter Lind peter.e.l...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. I think pages 17-19 of the GoF covers exactly this: Object composition is an alternative to inheritance. ... Any [composed] object can be replaced at run-time by another as long as it has the same type. I would look into object composition or just read the GoF. GoF? Bob McConnell -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php All, Thank you for the various ideas, discussion, and book recommendation. I definitely need to check out that text. Thanks. dK ` -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This type of thing would especially be easy if objects of parent classes could be cast as an object of its extended class. Where would the extra data come from to fill in any fields the base class does not have? Just think of a simple example with a Shape class, extended by a ColouredShape class which contains some data about the object's colour - if you have a Shape object it can't become a ColouredShape without some surgery because bits of the ColouredShape's anatomy are not present. -- Gary Please do NOT send me 'courtesy' replies off-list. PHP 5.2.12 (cli) (built: Jan 14 2010 14:54:11) 1.7.7(0.230/5/3) 2010-08-31 09:58 Cygwin -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. Bob McConnell -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. Regards Peter -- hype WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: http://twitter.com/kafe15 /hype -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
From: Peter Lind On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. I have no problem with that idea. My first reaction would be to return to a procedural format and forget about objects altogether. I have been struggling with them for more than ten years now, and still don't understand the intent or purpose behind them. They simply appear to be a lot of unnecessary overhead with no real advantages in return. Even multi-tasking was a lot easier to figure out. Unfortunately, I keep getting stuck working with other people's applications that are already cast in objects. It makes me wish I could take early retirement this winter. Sorry for the rant. I'll go hide in the corner and be quiet for a while. Bob McConnell -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Peter Lind peter.e.l...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. Regards Peter -- hype WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: http://twitter.com/kafe15 /hype I think pages 17-19 of the GoF covers exactly this: Object composition is an alternative to inheritance. ... Any [composed] object can be replaced at run-time by another as long as it has the same type. I would look into object composition or just read the GoF.
RE: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
From: chris h On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Peter Lind peter.e.l...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. I think pages 17-19 of the GoF covers exactly this: Object composition is an alternative to inheritance. ... Any [composed] object can be replaced at run-time by another as long as it has the same type. I would look into object composition or just read the GoF. GoF? Bob McConnell -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
Gang of Four http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Elements-Reusable-Object-Oriented/dp/0201633612 An excellent book on OOP. Chris H. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: chris h On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Peter Lind peter.e.l...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. I think pages 17-19 of the GoF covers exactly this: Object composition is an alternative to inheritance. ... Any [composed] object can be replaced at run-time by another as long as it has the same type. I would look into object composition or just read the GoF. GoF? Bob McConnell -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On 9/24/2010 4:09 AM, Gary wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. This type of thing would especially be easy if objects of parent classes could be cast as an object of its extended class. Where would the extra data come from to fill in any fields the base class does not have? Just think of a simple example with a Shape class, extended by a ColouredShape class which contains some data about the object's colour - if you have a Shape object it can't become a ColouredShape without some surgery because bits of the ColouredShape's anatomy are not present. -- GaryPlease do NOT send me 'courtesy' replies off-list. PHP 5.2.12 (cli) (built: Jan 14 2010 14:54:11) 1.7.7(0.230/5/3) 2010-08-31 09:58 Cygwin The colouredShape class would probably have a member variable called $color. This member could have a default value (as defined in the class), be defined through the __construct() method (which would be invoked upon such a cast procedure...perhaps there could be a __cast() method much like how there is a __clone() method. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Copying an Object
On 9/24/2010 6:11 PM, Daniel Kolbo wrote: On 9/24/2010 8:35 AM, Peter Lind wrote: On 24 September 2010 14:22, Bob McConnell r...@cbord.com wrote: From: David Hutto On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Gary php-gene...@garydjones.name wrote: Daniel Kolbo wrote: Say you have two classes: human and male. Further, say male extends human. Let's say you have a human object. Then later you want to make that human object a male object. This seems to be a pretty reasonable thing to request of our objects. I don't think any human can change gender without major surgery, but I don't know if you just chose your example badly or whether you really think objects should be able to mutate into other types of object without some kind of special treatment. But it would work in something like makehuman, where you start with a neuter form and scale one way or the other for physical features. If I remember correctly, we're' all xx until you become xy(genetically speaking). This is one of the details that really bothers me about OOP. It makes it impossible to implement some very reasonable scenarios. 80% of the time, when a patron is added to a system, we don't know which gender they are. More than 50% of the time, we will never know, since the client doesn't keep track of it. But the rest of them will be assigned sometime after they were added. i.e. the gender assignment comes from a secondary source that is not available at the time the patron is entered. If you can't handle that, it's not the fault of OOP but your lack of programming skills in OOP I'd say (and I mean no disrespect there, I'm just pretty sure your scenario can be handled very easily in OOP). And no, I have no urge to defend OOP in PHP, I just see this entire thread as a complete non-starter: if the language doesn't let you do something in a particular way, how about you stop, take a breather, then ask if perhaps there's a better way in the language to do what you want done? That would normally be a much more productive and intelligent response than either a) pressing on in the face of failure or b) complaining about your specific needs and how the language fails to meet them. Regards Peter I would consider the post to be a discussion among the community to discuss possible improvements for php, to help progress the language to handle the situations faced by the users of the language, and hey maybe learn something along the way. I certainly wouldn't consider the post to be an avenue to belittle members of the community. For some it's half empty, for others half full. ` -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
