RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
The OO paradigm maps very closely to problem domains, and is very easy to model. OO let us build more complex software with less effort. In general, OO code has more branches and hence use the stack more than procedural code does. That is why OO code is thought not to be as fast as procedural code. On the other hand it is easier to build better solutions when using OOP, and therefore it is often said that applications written in an OO language is +-10% faster or slower. One can use the OO features in PHP without having to worry about performance penalties. If you are concerned about performance, discussing whether or not to use OOP in PHP would simply be stupid (don't mean to offend anyone), there is so many other variables that will have a far bigger impact on performance than that. Regards, Peter Albertsson Software Engineer and System Architect -Original Message- From: Chris Shiflett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: den 29 mars 2004 23:53 To: Stephen Craton; 'PHP List' Subject: Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP? --- Stephen Craton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. Makes it faster in what way? I'm curious to know what you've been reading. Using objects is generally faster for the programmer and slower for the computer. YMMV. What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? To really understand this, you need to use it. No one can tell you in one or two lines enough information to explain the entire paradigm or even convince you of its merits. The one-liner attempt of mine would be something like: It helps you associate data with functions that use that data. There are lots of other things, of course. One method of learning about this would be to take every OO term (encapsulation, namespacing, etc.) and find a really good explanation of the term. Hope that helps. Chris = Chris Shiflett - http://shiflett.org/ PHP Security - O'Reilly Coming Fall 2004 HTTP Developer's Handbook - Sams http://httphandbook.org/ PHP Community Site http://phpcommunity.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
On Mon, 2004-03-29 at 16:43, Stephen Craton wrote: I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? What does it have to offer then just creating files full of functions to include later like I've always done? Inheritance. Encapsulation. Polymorphism. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
Stephen Craton wrote: I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? What does it have to offer then just creating files full of functions to include later like I've always done? It's really good for code organization and reuse. The ability to reuse code every easily is it's best feature, IMO. Also, Rob has good points, too. -- Jason Giangrande [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.giangrande.org http://www.dogsiview.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
--- Stephen Craton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. Makes it faster in what way? I'm curious to know what you've been reading. Using objects is generally faster for the programmer and slower for the computer. YMMV. What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? To really understand this, you need to use it. No one can tell you in one or two lines enough information to explain the entire paradigm or even convince you of its merits. The one-liner attempt of mine would be something like: It helps you associate data with functions that use that data. There are lots of other things, of course. One method of learning about this would be to take every OO term (encapsulation, namespacing, etc.) and find a really good explanation of the term. Hope that helps. Chris = Chris Shiflett - http://shiflett.org/ PHP Security - O'Reilly Coming Fall 2004 HTTP Developer's Handbook - Sams http://httphandbook.org/ PHP Community Site http://phpcommunity.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
Hello Stephen, Monday, March 29, 2004, 10:43:22 PM, you wrote: SC I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now SC and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it SC faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. What's the SC advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? What does SC it have to offer then just creating files full of functions to include later SC like I've always done? I used to think the same thing until I started using an OO approach to development (quite some years ago) and I have to admit I won't ever revert back to the a hundred different functions spread over stacks of include files just to get things done approach. OO doesn't make your code faster, it makes it *neater* and more intelligible. It also makes development time heck of a lot faster. Perhaps one approach to this would be to post an example of one of your scripts (not necessarily the source, more an overview) and then let someone explain how one OO approach might be to it. -- Best regards, Richard Davey http://www.phpcommunity.org/wiki/296.html -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
I agree, but the reuse of code is also posible in an structured oriented fashion and it is not inherent in OOP. Simply saying that you are going to use OOP doesn't means that the code reuse is granted, like in structured oriented programming you have to think very carefully how to design your application to get advantage of this. -William El lun, 29-03-2004 a las 16:52, Jason Giangrande escribió: Stephen Craton wrote: I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? What does it have to offer then just creating files full of functions to include later like I've always done? It's really good for code organization and reuse. The ability to reuse code every easily is it's best feature, IMO. Also, Rob has good points, too. -- Jason Giangrande [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.giangrande.org http://www.dogsiview.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
Thanks for all the replies. I've mostly been reading over at PHP-Builder. I read one of the articles by Luis Argerich, but since I was only skimming through the article, I may have missed something and read it wrong. I used OO in my chat script (can be found at http://php.melchior.us) but it really seemed like a waste since it was such a small basic script. I never really find myself re-needing code except for database connectivity and calling the database and stuff like that. Thanks again for all the replies and helpful information. Thanks, Stephen Craton http://www.melchior.us - -Original Message- - From: Chris Shiflett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 4:53 PM - To: Stephen Craton; 'PHP List' - Subject: Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP? - - --- Stephen Craton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while - now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly - makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. - - Makes it faster in what way? I'm curious to know what you've been reading. - - Using objects is generally faster for the programmer and slower for the - computer. YMMV. - - What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using - it now? - - To really understand this, you need to use it. No one can tell you in one - or two lines enough information to explain the entire paradigm or even - convince you of its merits. - - The one-liner attempt of mine would be something like: - - It helps you associate data with functions that use that data. - - There are lots of other things, of course. One method of learning about - this would be to take every OO term (encapsulation, namespacing, etc.) and - find a really good explanation of the term. - - Hope that helps. - - Chris - - = - Chris Shiflett - http://shiflett.org/ - - PHP Security - O'Reilly - Coming Fall 2004 - HTTP Developer's Handbook - Sams - http://httphandbook.org/ - PHP Community Site - http://phpcommunity.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
Stephen Craton said: I've been reading up on object oriented programming in PHP for a while now and I just don't get what's the use in using it. It supposedly makes it faster, but I don't really see how in any of my scripts. What's the advantage of OOP anyway, and why are so many people using it now? What does it have to offer then just creating files full of functions to include later like I've always done? Good question. OOP is mysterious until you get it, then you'll want to write everything in objects. Show a man how to use a hammer, and everything looks like a nail :-) One use is to organize loose functions. For example, we have a user/group administration section. Each user is represented with a user object. With the user object I put functions inside which do things like Give me your group ID, Give me your permissions, Give me your name. So rather than writing a function for each of these and squirreling it away into an include file, I organize it into a user class (and squirrel it away into an include file :-) Same with groups. So I wanted to produce a list of users in the group. I ran something like this (pseudocode): $group_obj = new Group (1); foreach ($group_obj-get_group_list() as $member_id) $user_obj = new User (45); $user_obj-get_name (); // Displays John The equivalent standard programming is: function get_member_name($id) $SQL = select name from members where id = $id; return $name function get_group_list ($group_id) $SQL = select member_id from groups where group_id = $group_id; return $array_of_ids foreach (get_group_list(1) as $member_id) get_member_name ($member_id); // Displays John A bit messier. OOP lets each class worry about getting its own data. With this organization you can think more clearly about writing the business logic. You can build each object to do whatever you need it to (Tell someone your name when asked, tell someone your blood type when asked, donate blood when asked), and then go back and build business logic to orchestrate each action into an application User, who are you? User, what is your blood type? User, donate blood.). So my use was for organization. In this example, OOP was actually slower (don't know who told you it'd be faster; I sure haven't found that to be true) and so eventually I'll revert to ordinary functional code. For each time I fetch the member name, the user's object must be built up and torn down. Am I doing something wrong? Perhaps. But it tells me OOP isn't right for any and every situation. Not everything is a nail. Other uses include extension. For instance, I might see a class I like and will download it. Say I want to impliment it but with a few customizations; I can extend that class. In the ordinary function world, if a new version of a library comes out I'd have to reimpliment those changes into the library again, but with a class I don't much care which changes are where (to some extent). For example, we modified an ordinary menu-building system to be object-oriented so we could publish it back to the developers. We then extended it to do a permission check using the user object above like this: get menu items extension: for each menu item, is the user allowed to see it? If not, remove it from the list show menu items I can now publish that code without the custom permission check and it'll work for anyone. It also helps developers segment their work. For a grand example, take a look at the Java classes, which are organized in a tree-like fashion. The code at the top is generic and it gets more specific as you descend the tree. Inheritence is king for Java, and there's very little code rewrite (if the developer knows what he's doing). There are a number of other reasons to use OOP, but speed should not be the first consideration. Perhaps there are situations in which it is faster than standard functions but I haven't see them, or perhaps you've really got to tweak it. Instead, use OOP for a more organized way to build a program. That's my layman's understanding of OOP for laymen like myself. Hope it helps! CD -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
Mar 29 at 5:25pm, Stephen Craton wrote: I used OO in my chat script (can be found at http://php.melchior.us) but it really seemed like a waste since it was such a small basic script. I never really find myself re-needing code except for database connectivity and calling the database and stuff like that. If you take away your class statements, I'd wager that this looks a lot like it would had you just done it without OOP. It's a design and organization issue. What you have probably works, but there is so much more you could do if you spent your time designing objects in the proper way. Your database connection object is a more logical start... I think a chat app could easily be something more than just 'functional' if you start thinking about the tangible concepts you'd have in some kind of chat application-- users, chat sessions, messages. Then later say you want to add support for other types of events.. then you think, hey, an event is just a different type of message, just extend the message object. When you've got a bunch of disorganized functions that work in specialized ways, you are adding on or reworking huge sections of code every time you want to add or change something. With well designed objects, the worst case scenario is you write a new object. I think there is a bit of what I consider an efficiency myth in regards to OOP in PHP. Most agree that the OO implementation in PHP is not robust. However, most people that rely on this assertion do not usually understand leveraging OO and also most do not write excellent non-OO code. :) If nothing else, getting a solid handle on the benefits of OOP can only make your code better, even if you choose not to use it in every situation (which most would suggest against in PHP, anyway). There IS something to OOP! Unfortunately, it's difficult to learn through examples of car stereo panels or different types of fruit or trees (though they do make perfect sense in hindsight). -- Kelly Hallman // Ultrafancy -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
--- Kelly Hallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there is a bit of what I consider an efficiency myth in regards to OOP in PHP. Most agree that the OO implementation in PHP is not robust. It's much better in PHP 5, although a lack of robustness is not how I would personally describe PHP 4's shortcomings. However, most people that rely on this assertion do not usually understand leveraging OO and also most do not write excellent non-OO code. :) Perhaps, but I would say that most people who make this assertion understand OO. The performance penalty is not a myth. Just as templating incurs a performance penalty, so does OO. The reward can be worth it, of course, in terms of organization and ease of use. The same argument extends further, since I would rather write some things in PHP or Perl than than C. I know C is faster, but I'm usually more interested in making things easier on myself. Chris = Chris Shiflett - http://shiflett.org/ PHP Security - O'Reilly Coming Fall 2004 HTTP Developer's Handbook - Sams http://httphandbook.org/ PHP Community Site http://phpcommunity.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
Mar 29 at 3:23pm, Chris Shiflett wrote: I think there is a bit of what I consider an efficiency myth in regards to OOP in PHP. Most agree that the OO implementation in PHP is not robust. It's much better in PHP 5, although a lack of robustness is not how I would personally describe PHP 4's shortcomings. Considering that OO is mostly a convenience for the coder, I just meant robustness of the implementation in a general sense, nothing specific... However, most people that rely on this assertion do not usually understand leveraging OO and also most do not write excellent non-OO Perhaps, but I would say that most people who make this assertion understand OO. The performance penalty is not a myth. Just as templating incurs a performance penalty, so does OO. The reward can be worth it, of course, in terms of organization and ease of use. I meant most people that rely on this assertion, to avoid learning OO. If you have other reasons for not using OO, then great.. but when the subject is what's the use of OOP? then I think we're talking about two different groups of people... The same argument extends further, since I would rather write some things in PHP or Perl than than C. I know C is faster, but I'm usually more interested in making things easier on myself. Precisely! The efficiency myth was meant only in the sense that it's a myth to think simply avoiding (delving into) OOP because I've heard that it's slow in PHP automatically means you're being more efficient. It's not the prime language for OOP but I find that when it all balances out, for web apps in PHP, OO offers an attractive price/performance ratio... (can't wait for PHP5) -- Kelly Hallman // Ultrafancy -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
On Mon, 2004-03-29 at 18:23, Chris Shiflett wrote: --- Kelly Hallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there is a bit of what I consider an efficiency myth in regards to OOP in PHP. Most agree that the OO implementation in PHP is not robust. It's much better in PHP 5, although a lack of robustness is not how I would personally describe PHP 4's shortcomings. However, most people that rely on this assertion do not usually understand leveraging OO and also most do not write excellent non-OO code. :) Perhaps, but I would say that most people who make this assertion understand OO. The performance penalty is not a myth. Just as templating incurs a performance penalty, so does OO. The reward can be worth it, of course, in terms of organization and ease of use. I'd just like to point out as I often do, that the templating system's implementation determines if there is a performance penalty :) compiled-to-source templating systems don't incur such a run-time performance hit, and can in fact increase performance due to the fact the inclusion happens once at the compile stage. This would be akin to inlined code :) Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] RE:[PHP]What'stheuseinOOP?
Stephen Craton said:
I used OO in my chat script (can be found at
http://php.melchior.us) but it really seemed like a waste
since it was such a small basic script. I never
really find myself re-needing code except for database
connectivity and calling the database and stuff like that.
My boss, before he really understood OOP, would take ordinary proceedural
code and wrap it in a class, which still wasn't object-oriented. I fear
you've done the same in your code (even though I haven't seen it) and are
wondering what the big whoop is about. I believe that if you don't
understand OO, you haven't been using OO.
Once you understand the whys (after using it for a bit) you'll see why
it's so cool. Now I wanna code everything OO :-)
I really understood it when a Java programmer I know once said In
proceedural code, the nuts-and-bolts are functions which are verbs
(get_data(), open_database(), write_file()) while in object-oriented code,
the nuts and bolts are objects which are nouns ($user, $group, $job,
$house).
So I'd build an OO chat room like so (pseudocode):
class chatroom
values: private or public, admin, name, max_users, comments, admin_present
methods: get/set_public_or_private, get/set_admin, get/set_name,
get/set_max_users, get/set_comments, display_help, update_member_list,
get/set_admin_present
class user
values: permission level, name, email address, password
methods: get/set permission level, get/set name, get/set email_address,
get/set password, join_chat_room, create_chat_room, leave_chat_room
class system chatroom extends chatroom
methods: check permissions, restart server
$phpchat = new chatroom (phpchat);
$phpchat-set_public_or_private (public);
$phpchat-set_admin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]);
$phpchat-set_comments (A great place to talk about PHP);
$user- new user ([EMAIL PROTECTED]);
$user-join_chat_root (phpchat);
if ($phpchat-get_admin() == $user-get_email_address()) {
$phpchat-set_admin_present(TRUE); }
$phpchat-update_member_list();
...
It's not perfect but hopefully you'll understand the magic.
/dev/idal
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RE: [PHP] What's the use in OOP?
--- Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps, but I would say that most people who make this assertion understand OO. The performance penalty is not a myth. Just as templating incurs a performance penalty, so does OO. The reward can be worth it, of course, in terms of organization and ease of use. I'd just like to point out as I often do, that the templating system's implementation determines if there is a performance penalty :) compiled-to-source templating systems don't incur such a run-time performance hit Then OOP isn't slower either, because you can use something like APC. Moral of the story: that argument is irrelevant. :-) Chris = Chris Shiflett - http://shiflett.org/ PHP Security - O'Reilly Coming Fall 2004 HTTP Developer's Handbook - Sams http://httphandbook.org/ PHP Community Site http://phpcommunity.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
