RE: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Actually that's not true, reply to: is not a hack and is very much a standard to include in the headers, its part of the rfc standard, after having written a mail server as a project its not hard to create a mailinglist option that sets this info up properly. If you setup your mail client with the reply to field different to your email address, your email client will add this line or did you not know that? -Original Message- From: Richard Davey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:49 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion Hello Andrew, Friday, July 1, 2005, 3:32:14 PM, you wrote: AS Well I am on about 20-30 as well, and when I press reply it goes to a AS mailinglist address for broadcasting not the posters email address. Most likely because they've bastardised the mail headers to force in a reply-to address that wasn't ever there. Thankfully most people on this list understand that when an email arrives from an address, reply will reply to it. Having said that, it does catch a lot of noobs out. Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hello, I followed the discussions closely. I wanted to reply to some questions I saw in the discussions. I am using both PHP and Coldfusion, but both on Linux platforms. So, I am not bound to Microsoft technologies, and CF runs faster on Linux/Unix than on Windows. Like PHP, there is no need for a dedicated IDE to code/script on CF. You may use Macromedia software to build web pages only if you want, except if you want to make Flash movies/animations. You can edit files manually to configure CF (XML files) with a ssh access on the server (at least the Linux version I am used to), or use a web interface to manage it. Both languages have pros and cons, and I cannot say that one is superior to the other. It is a matter of taste. I know that someone coming from a programming background will be more comfortable with PHP, while someone coming from a web design background may be more comfortable with CF, but even that is changing. Once you get to do very advanced things, you need to code using Object Oriented approaches, modular programming, web services, etc. which both products allow you to do. It is true that Coldfusion offers a lot of functionality 'out of the box', and sometimes you need to look around to find equivalent functionality, extensions for PHP. These functionalities are more geared towards displaying data, managing forms, etc. PHP also offers a lot of functionalities out of the box also. For example, PHP is really flexible about how you want to retrieve a query, in what format, etc. The functionalities are more geared towards programming utilities. You can extend Coldfusion functionalities easily by creating 'custom tags' in Perl, C, C++ or Java without having to recompile the product. You can also instantiate any classes in Java because Coldfusion is based on Java since version 5. So, it's really a matter of personal taste and the background of each one. I personally take pleasure developing applications on both Coldfusion and PHP. Stéphane On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:50, Richard Davey wrote: Hello Andrew, Friday, July 1, 2005, 3:06:49 PM, you wrote: AS You know for a php developer your really don't know your own product to AS well (blah blah blah) Isn't it time to run off and write another check to Adobe or something? Rather than personally attacking other list members. Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Richard, And your point of before you pay your programmer is what one of my other points was. CF is very rapid development, and you might say the same about PHP. The point is that these are all the things you need to take into consideration, the cost that it would take to develop and maintain in either language, as well as cost involved in the need of the application having to be a true enterprise solution. I am not here to bag php, I am here to make some points about the cost of the application in the overall scenario. Would you develop in a language that you know could not deliver an enterprise solution if in 6 months that's what you really need, and how would you look if you recommended a language because it was free, but in time had to spend more again to make it fully scalable to an enterprise level if it needed it. My point is that both languages have their merits, both have their advantages and disadvantages, but what about the cost is it really worth not researching something properly before jumping into bed with what you think might work? I know what I would do if someone who worked for me, came to me an recommended a language and had not done the research into all possible paths, that person would be very answerable to why we had to spend more down the track. Now that you have bagged CF, lets look at PHP. The amount of work that is needed to implement a reporting solution is hard work and takes a lot of code, the amount of work needed to generate a PDF or even a flash paper is hard work in php, or what about RIA development (Rich Internet Application's) that con leverage of flash to make presentation look good with minimal work. This functionality can and does save more work than you could ever possibly achieve in php, RAD development because it creates less work to achieve something that would take a lot of work and time in php. Don't get me started on the integration of crystal reports and php, I have had to do it and it was not easy compared to the same job in coldfusion. A good developer will know when to use the right tools for the job. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hi Concerning php and J2EE, zend platform is providing a solid bridge between both environment. This as been specially build for developping big system (banking, tracking, etc). regards david Le Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:06:22 +0200, Richard Davey [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: Hello Andrew, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 9:15:22 AM, you wrote: AS Coldfusion is also free (Blue Dragon) and has just as much support AS as PHP, although. PHP can not run in a J2EE environment, limiting AS it to small scall websites and limiting the prospect of expansion AS or server migration. You like to tout CF as being J2EE/Enterprise ready. For this the free version of Blue Dragon is NOT suitable, by the developers own admission. You need the $6000 Enterprise version of CF (and you can add on a few more thousand $ for extended support). This is before you've bought any of the extra components you need to finish your application. 1) Blue Dragon is also not just a free version of CF it would appear, even on the developers web site they describe the free version as Functionality is robust and useful for most basic CFML applications. - it's the words most basic that concern me here. 2) It doesn't support the newer CF 7 features. 3) The free version does not deploy into J2EE at all. 4) It only runs on Windows, OS X or Linux (sorry, but lots of very big hosting companies prefer the stability of FreeBSD, Solaris, etc). If you want Solaris support it costs $2499 per CPU. If you want FreeBSD support, you're stuffed. 5) It only supports ODBC database connections (via JDBC), so unlike PHP you won't be connecting to Oracle, MS SQL, SQLite, etc. MySQL is supported, but not built-in. If you want to do CF seriously, you need to invest thousands and that's before you've paid your programmers - this is the bottom line. Perhaps that is why even the Blue Dragon developers themselves claim its biggest advantage is: You've invested heavily in CFML.. so have we. Protect your investments. - and how do you protect them? by deploying Blue Dragon so you can then interface directly with .NET applications rather than migrate totally to them. This doesn't strike me as being the approach of a growing, competitive well supported language. It sounds more like shit, people have woken up to the massive cost of using CF, how can we slow the drop-out rate? if that is Blue Dragons primary selling angle, it says a *lot* about the state of serious CF development. When it comes to investing it think long-term. Zend are aggressively attacking the enterprise market and we will see more and more movement in this direction, to the point where I am quite sure their objective is to make PHP itself enterprise capable *regardless* of J2EE. With the rate things change around here, we won't have to wait too long. If you don't actually need to build an enterprise scale site (and let's face it, that covers most of us) then you're good to go with PHP *right now* without actually spending a dime. Take that $6000 CF budget, invest it into training for your entire team and build your own framework, with the knowledge that no matter what happens, your work is safe. Anyway, time to get back to my project for BMW - just one of those small scall websites (sic) things I guess? Best regards, Richard Davey -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
[snip] Would you develop in a language that you know could not deliver an enterprise solution if in 6 months that's what you really need, and how would you look if you recommended a language because it was free, but in time had to spend more again to make it fully scalable to an enterprise level if it needed it. [/snip] I know that I am not the only one, but we have been developing enterprise level (and very scalable) applications in PHP for almost 4 years. If you are asserting that PHP is not enterprise ready here you would be way off base. Here is another side which seems to have been ignored. I can bring C or C++ or JAVA developers in and have them up to speed in PHP very quickly. CF requires an additional learning curve (I used it way back in 1997 when it was in its earlier iterations) because of the tags, etc. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
* Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: CF is very rapid development, and you might say the same about PHP. The point is that these are all the things you need to take into consideration, the cost that it would take to develop and maintain in either language, as well as cost involved in the need of the application having to be a true enterprise solution. I am not here to bag php, I am here to make some points about the cost of the application in the overall scenario. Would you develop in a language that you know could not deliver an enterprise solution if in 6 months that's what you really need, and how would you look if you recommended a language because it was free, but in time had to spend more again to make it fully scalable to an enterprise level if it needed it. You've insinuated several times that PHP is not 'scalable to an enterprise level'. Could you perhaps explain what you mean by this? One informal definition for 'enterprise framework' I've read recently is an enterprise framework allows the end-user to drop in only the business logic to make it work; they do not need to add anymore programming to the framework (http://benramsey.com/2005/05/09/what-is-an-enterprise-framework/) Now, I've seen a number of PHP frameworks where this is the case; you drop in a config file of some sort, point your application to it, and voila! Solution delivered! That doesn't address scalability, however. So, let's look at that. I'm not sure how CF scales, not having been in a CF shop. However, I know what I can do to scale PHP: * Use code optimizers/bytecode caches (zend, apc, eAccelerator) * Build an LVS-HA cluster for a web farm (i.e., increase the number of machines able to serve data and pages) * Focus on code optimization (i.e., make my code as efficient as possible) (As an aside, the beauty of a cluster is that you can add or subtract machines without the public noticing; the site remains up. Additionally, since all the director does is pass requests to the nodes, and possibly relay the responses back to the requestor, you can have machines of just about any configuration running on the backend -- Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, etc. -- so long as they speak the HTTP protocol.) Could you please share why you feel PHP isn't enterprise ready, or why CF is more enterprise ready? Other than the java integration; others have pointed out that the Zend platform addresses that issue. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Zend Certified Engineer http://weierophinney.net/matthew/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On 6/30/05, Matthew Weier O'Phinney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That doesn't address scalability, however. So, let's look at that. I'm not sure how CF scales, not having been in a CF shop. However, I know what I can do to scale PHP: * Use code optimizers/bytecode caches (zend, apc, eAccelerator) * Build an LVS-HA cluster for a web farm (i.e., increase the number of machines able to serve data and pages) * Focus on code optimization (i.e., make my code as efficient as possible) These also apply to CF. However, the built-in caching offered by CF (and by that I mean the ability to store something in memory, like the application scope) can actually be a draw back when going to a multi-server environment. For example, say you have a query that you would like to keep in memory for faster access. You can put this in one of the shared scopes and you are all set. It's very easy, but when you add another server, you now have that query duplicated on both servers. Suppose you have many queries, or other objects that you would like to keep in memory. Using this technique, they are all duplicated on all of the servers. I don't think that is a very efficient use of resources. Of course it doesn't have to be done that way. - Brad -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
