Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Danilo Kordic]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 23:06 Davide BERTOLOTTO 
wrote:

> After all these years I am still wondering how people like complicated
> sintaxes full of special forms more than the simplicity of lisp. After all,
> the parentheses and the prefix notation do not look so terrible to me,
> especially considering that you gain a lot in clarity and simplicity of the
> language. Probably is the same reason that pushes people to create yet
> another programming language every now and then xD.
>

  Exactly!

  C(11) is not a write-only language, but at best a write-once language!!
A Turing Tarpit.

  `` Fools ignore complexity.  Pragmatists suffer it.  Some can avoid it.
Geniuses remove it.
   '' -- Alan Perlis, Epigrams on Programming

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 21:03 pd  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 5:00 PM Danilo Kordic 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>   'float' could be implemented as a lib.
>>>
>>
>> yes, but the point here it is not at core and even having a float lib or
>> whatever science lib, python is plenty of them and a nicer syntax
>>
>> it's not about me neither talking about (pico)lisp features and better
>> syntax, I'm yet convinced 'cause I'm a schemer thus a lisper and I'm here
>> in that list after all
>> But most people don't think so and no matter how better and nicer I find
>> the lisp syntax, the world thinks the opposite ;-)
>>
>> maybe you can find a killer app or even a killer science app leting
>> picolisp shine but as soon as people has to program in picolisp (I mean
>> scripting) they will feel uncofortable, they will always prefer R or
>> python, just for syntax, not talking about huge amount of libraries and
>> community support,  developers should enjoy (pico)lisp facilities to
>> develop and organice knowledge but as soon as had practical issue the lack
>> of specialized libraries will make them comply thinking in wide spread
>> python or ruby (just talking dynamic 'script' languages only)...
>>
>> It's not a problem of picolisp only, it's common to all lisp dialects and
>> even cool minor languages... This is the reason for using lua for scripting
>> rather than picolisp, guile or even tcl
>> Also this is the problem for all lisp about their use in real apps,  I
>> see this in common lisp, in scheme, ...  The only lisp-like with hype and
>> relative wide use is clojure and one key reason is libraries (achieved by
>> jvm side)
>>
>> And this is how it's gonna be... we live in the dictatorship of C-like
>> syntax world! ;-)
>>
>> (damnification is not only in lisp world,  same happen to smalltalk and
>> derivatives, forth-like derivatives and so on)
>>
>
  This is complete rubbish (IMHO)!!  You are not even a normie, but an
NPC!!

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Davide BERTOLOTTO]

After all these years I am still wondering how people like complicated
sintaxes full of special forms more than the simplicity of lisp. After all,
the parentheses and the prefix notation do not look so terrible to me,
especially considering that you gain a lot in clarity and simplicity of the
language. Probably is the same reason that pushes people to create yet
another programming language every now and then xD.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 21:03 pd  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 5:00 PM Danilo Kordic 
> wrote:
>
>>   'float' could be implemented as a lib.
>>
>
> yes, but the point here it is not at core and even having a float lib or
> whatever science lib, python is plenty of them and a nicer syntax
>
> it's not about me neither talking about (pico)lisp features and better
> syntax, I'm yet convinced 'cause I'm a schemer thus a lisper and I'm here
> in that list after all
> But most people don't think so and no matter how better and nicer I find
> the lisp syntax, the world thinks the opposite ;-)
>
> maybe you can find a killer app or even a killer science app leting
> picolisp shine but as soon as people has to program in picolisp (I mean
> scripting) they will feel uncofortable, they will always prefer R or
> python, just for syntax, not talking about huge amount of libraries and
> community support,  developers should enjoy (pico)lisp facilities to
> develop and organice knowledge but as soon as had practical issue the lack
> of specialized libraries will make them comply thinking in wide spread
> python or ruby (just talking dynamic 'script' languages only)...
>
> It's not a problem of picolisp only, it's common to all lisp dialects and
> even cool minor languages... This is the reason for using lua for scripting
> rather than picolisp, guile or even tcl
> Also this is the problem for all lisp about their use in real apps,  I see
> this in common lisp, in scheme, ...  The only lisp-like with hype and
> relative wide use is clojure and one key reason is libraries (achieved by
> jvm side)
>
> And this is how it's gonna be... we live in the dictatorship of C-like
> syntax world! ;-)
>
> (damnification is not only in lisp world,  same happen to smalltalk and
> derivatives, forth-like derivatives and so on)
>
>

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[pd]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 5:00 PM Danilo Kordic 
wrote:

>   'float' could be implemented as a lib.
>

yes, but the point here it is not at core and even having a float lib or
whatever science lib, python is plenty of them and a nicer syntax

it's not about me neither talking about (pico)lisp features and better
syntax, I'm yet convinced 'cause I'm a schemer thus a lisper and I'm here
in that list after all
But most people don't think so and no matter how better and nicer I find
the lisp syntax, the world thinks the opposite ;-)

maybe you can find a killer app or even a killer science app leting
picolisp shine but as soon as people has to program in picolisp (I mean
scripting) they will feel uncofortable, they will always prefer R or
python, just for syntax, not talking about huge amount of libraries and
community support,  developers should enjoy (pico)lisp facilities to
develop and organice knowledge but as soon as had practical issue the lack
of specialized libraries will make them comply thinking in wide spread
python or ruby (just talking dynamic 'script' languages only)...

It's not a problem of picolisp only, it's common to all lisp dialects and
even cool minor languages... This is the reason for using lua for scripting
rather than picolisp, guile or even tcl
Also this is the problem for all lisp about their use in real apps,  I see
this in common lisp, in scheme, ...  The only lisp-like with hype and
relative wide use is clojure and one key reason is libraries (achieved by
jvm side)

And this is how it's gonna be... we live in the dictatorship of C-like
syntax world! ;-)

(damnification is not only in lisp world,  same happen to smalltalk and
derivatives, forth-like derivatives and so on)

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Eric,

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 05:31:13PM +0100, cilz wrote:
> Hence I kind of agree with Alex below, for me
> there's nothing to add yet to Picolisp, but to
> the documentation or IMHO provide some more
> "full" examples

Right. Perhaps we should say "more explanations" instead of "documentation".

☺/ A!ex

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Re: Picolisp Outlook

[cilz]

Hello guys,

I' m just a hobbyist here, but if you're ok, this is my 2 cents.

As it has already been written by many, Picolisp has already many 
features that are IMHO killing features:


- simplicity

- the integrated web server + client library,

- the integrated NoSQL database + the integrated Prolog

All these features give you an integrated full stack. I don't know many 
other  programming languages which give you such a power.


However, as someone who just do programming for himself, besides this 
amazing community from which I have get so many help, I have sometimes 
missed some full examples of Picolisp use in order to find some ideas. 
For example, I found examples about OODB of the "ProDevTips" blog very 
useful.


In the past, I have been able to do some development in R, because of 
the so many examples that can be easily found on any topic.


Hence I kind of agree with Alex below, for me there's nothing to add yet 
to Picolisp, but to the documentation or IMHO provide some more "full" 
examples which demonstrate the full power of our beloved Picolisp.


Best,

Eric


Le 22/02/2021 à 09:00, Alexander Burger a écrit :

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 05:17:59PM +0100, bied...@gmail.com wrote:

It's 2021, Software is eating the world, people are flocking to Python and
Javascript mainly, we're swimming in machine learning and AI and serverless
and what not. In the current times, where do you see the future of Picolisp
in the years to come? What do you see as the killer feature that could help

For me, the killer feature is *simplicity*. Anybody really interested should be
able to understand all levels of the language and runtime system, being in
control and immune to temporary hypes.


Picolisp to strive and survive? What do you think is missing in the
Picolisp ecosystem?

Documentation.

☺/ A!ex



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Re: Picolisp Outlook

[andreas]

Yeah, you mean some commercial or FOSS products with the opportunity for
PicoLisp programming/consulting/service business around it.

My company does that since 2015, and it's our main source of income
since 2018.
Currently its customized business applications (so similar to the
business model of A!ex).
We're working on moving into standardized products (e.g. CRM) and hope
to be able to publish products within the next 2 years.

Regards,
beneroth

On 23.02.21 16:36, Thorsten Jolitz wrote:
> I'm just saying that it would be nice to have a Picolisp app that has
> a real demand and a little ecosystem around it ...
>
> Like e.g. Moodle or some CMS system, that probably have an ecosystem
> of PHP programmers around them, and many organisations using them
> (with need for some support). For them it's irrelevant if it's PHP or
> anything else.
>
> C K Kashyap mailto:ckkash...@gmail.com>> schrieb
> am Di., 23. Feb. 2021, 15:56:
>
> I also believe that the simplicity of PicoLisp by itself is a
> "killer app". I've explored several languages in the past but
> PicoLisp is the only one that allowed me to understand the
> implementation of the language all the way (I still have to work
> on the external symbol bit :) . I was so used to seeing documents
> of concepts of other languages that don't directly map to the
> source code that it took me a while to realize the accuracy of
> PicoLisp documentation.
>
> Regards,
> Kashyap
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 2:26 AM Manuel Cano  > wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> That's surely because it isn't made in Picolisp! :D
>
> Kind regards,
> Manu
>
>
> El mar, 23 feb 2021 a las 10:32, Alexander Burger
> (mailto:a...@software-lab.de>>) escribió:
>
> Hi all,
>
> sorry for the multiple mails! Seems I have a DNS problem on
> the server ...
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 09:18:57AM +0100, Alexander Burger
> wrote:
> > Hi Thorsten,
> > ...
>
> -- 
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de
> ?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Thorsten Jolitz]

I'm just saying that it would be nice to have a Picolisp app that has a
real demand and a little ecosystem around it ...

Like e.g. Moodle or some CMS system, that probably have an ecosystem of PHP
programmers around them, and many organisations using them (with need for
some support). For them it's irrelevant if it's PHP or anything else.

C K Kashyap  schrieb am Di., 23. Feb. 2021, 15:56:

> I also believe that the simplicity of PicoLisp by itself is a "killer
> app". I've explored several languages in the past but PicoLisp is the only
> one that allowed me to understand the implementation of the language all
> the way (I still have to work on the external symbol bit :) . I was so used
> to seeing documents of concepts of other languages that don't directly map
> to the source code that it took me a while to realize the accuracy of
> PicoLisp documentation.
>
> Regards,
> Kashyap
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 2:26 AM Manuel Cano  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> That's surely because it isn't made in Picolisp! :D
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Manu
>>
>>
>> El mar, 23 feb 2021 a las 10:32, Alexander Burger ()
>> escribió:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> sorry for the multiple mails! Seems I have a DNS problem on
>>> the server ...
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 09:18:57AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote:
>>> > Hi Thorsten,
>>> > ...
>>>
>>> --
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>>
>>>

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Thorsten Jolitz]

Hi Alex,


Alexander Burger  schrieb am Di., 23. Feb. 2021, 09:33:

> Hi Thorsten,
>
> > Maybe we should sponsor Alex (3 month work?) to build that "killer app"
> > with the clear goals
>
> Hmm, no need to specially sponsor me, but thanks for the proposal!
>
> The problem is that such an app would probably not be accepted by those
> millions
> of (data) scientists. As always, Lisp looks too suspicious to them ;)
>

That's too bad, but probably the harsh truth.

Then there is only one option left ;-)
Build a low-code/no-code system where Picolisp simplicity shines under the
hood, but no average user sees any lisp.
These are getting quite popular nowadays in the enterprise world, but then
again, which enterprise doesn't go with the market leader for almost any
application?

Cheers
Thorsten


> ☺/ A!ex
>
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>

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Thorsten Jolitz]

I thought interfacing with important data science libraries would be a pro,
but of course it has to be done first, it's quite a lot of work and not
always that easy, even if it's C, not to mention C++.

I guess you are right about the popularity of Lisp ...

pd  schrieb am Di., 23. Feb. 2021, 08:57:

> In my opinion picolisp has two disadvantages to be a scientific
> programming language:
>
> 1 lack of flota support
> 2 lack of libraries
>
> Both together make far easier to develop a science app in Python rather
> than picolisp
>
> For sure It has got adventages too like db and pil but disadvantages are a
> heavy stone
>
> Also lisp is not a fancy language, at least most people thinks it's weird
> compared to Python and similars and this sure doesn't helps. This is the
> reason for "science languages" are so similar in syntax (python,R...)
>
> Greets
>
>
> El lun., 22 feb. 2021 22:40, Thorsten Jolitz  escribió:
>
>> Maybe we should sponsor Alex (3 month work?) to build that "killer app"
>> with the clear goals
>>
>> - for all those millions of (data) scientists that work with R etc, it
>> should be the easiest (because fully integrated) way to build applications
>> on top of their data
>> - for those who like Picolisp it should be the Pil App to potentially
>> make money with (without being superstar programmers).
>>
>> If Alex charges moderate rates (and doesn't think the idea is a waste ;-)
>> I would be willing to take over one month of development ... ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  schrieb am Mo., 22. Feb. 2021, 21:51:
>>
>>> Yeah I had kinda similiar ideas, Thorsten.
>>>
>>> PicolispDB is certainly a killer feature - multi-paradigm database
>>> (Key-Value, Object, Document, Graph, Relational.. really everything
>>> covered), ACID (transactions), many indexing capabilities (including
>>> text and spatial indexing), performant, extremely flexible and nicely
>>> well maintainable.
>>>
>>> In the past, a lack of (digitalized) data was often an obstacle to get
>>> useful (business) insights with software.
>>> This changed, we are drowning in data.
>>>
>>> Now, and for the foreseeable future, the problem is to make sense of the
>>> data, to be able to filter, map and connect various formats and data
>>> sources together - while requirements change all the time.
>>>
>>> I believe Picolisp Database is a tool outstandingly suited for this.
>>>
>>> On 22.02.21 17:04, Thorsten Jolitz wrote:
>>> > hallo list,
>>> > I always thought a "killer app" would be nice, to make those "killer
>>> > features" popular, and I always thought that could be a "data science
>>> > application builder" with 3 features:
>>> >
>>> > - easy data import into a Picolisp DB
>>> > - ffi/java wrappers for many data science libs (Rmath,  Weka, ...)
>>> > - easy web app development
>>> >
>>> > because for data scientists it seems often quite difficult to build
>>> > applications on top of their data, and with Picolisp it would be all
>>> > integrated into one single tool.
>>> >
>>> > But then I should be the one who implements that, and I made some
>>> > attempts, but never had the time/energy/stamina/skills to bring it on

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[C K Kashyap]

I also believe that the simplicity of PicoLisp by itself is a "killer app".
I've explored several languages in the past but PicoLisp is the only one
that allowed me to understand the implementation of the language all the
way (I still have to work on the external symbol bit :) . I was so used to
seeing documents of concepts of other languages that don't directly map to
the source code that it took me a while to realize the accuracy of PicoLisp
documentation.

Regards,
Kashyap

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 2:26 AM Manuel Cano  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> That's surely because it isn't made in Picolisp! :D
>
> Kind regards,
> Manu
>
>
> El mar, 23 feb 2021 a las 10:32, Alexander Burger ()
> escribió:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> sorry for the multiple mails! Seems I have a DNS problem on
>> the server ...
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 09:18:57AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote:
>> > Hi Thorsten,
>> > ...
>>
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
>>

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Manuel Cano]

Hi,

That's surely because it isn't made in Picolisp! :D

Kind regards,
Manu


El mar, 23 feb 2021 a las 10:32, Alexander Burger ()
escribió:

> Hi all,
>
> sorry for the multiple mails! Seems I have a DNS problem on
> the server ...
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 09:18:57AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote:
> > Hi Thorsten,
> > ...
>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
>

Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Alexander Burger]

Hi all,

sorry for the multiple mails! Seems I have a DNS problem on
the server ...

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 09:18:57AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote:
> Hi Thorsten,
> ...

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Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Thorsten,

> Maybe we should sponsor Alex (3 month work?) to build that "killer app"
> with the clear goals

Hmm, no need to specially sponsor me, but thanks for the proposal!

The problem is that such an app would probably not be accepted by those millions
of (data) scientists. As always, Lisp looks too suspicious to them ;)

☺/ A!ex

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Re: Picolisp Outlook

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Thorsten,

> Maybe we should sponsor Alex (3 month work?) to build that "killer app"
> with the clear goals

Hmm, no need to specially sponsor me, but thanks for the proposal!

The problem is that such an app would probably not be accepted by those millions
of (data) scientists. As always, Lisp looks too suspicious to them ;)

☺/ A!ex

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