Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

2016-11-29 Thread Klaus Ethgen 
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Hi Martin,

Am Di den 29. Nov 2016 um 22:36 schrieb Martin Pitt:
> Cristian Ionescu-Idbohrn [2016-11-29 22:16 +0100]:
> > Eversince systemd came about into debian, you've shown direct or
> > indirect disrespect, IMO, to people objecting against screwing up
> > their systems, where they want to keep sysv instead of adopting
> > systemd world domination.
> 
> The root issue here is not about the init system, but how initramfses
> and separate partitions play together. Separate /usr without an initrd
> has always been slightly broken,

No, it worked well for decades and it was exactly why you have small
root and resizable /usr on other medias.

It start getting broken when systemd start taking over the world.

> So, the set of what can be supported is certainly debatable, but as
> history has shown it neither makes sense to support this use case nor
> did anyone manage to actually do it. Hence the "wontfix".

As history shows, that is common use case and makes fully sense.

> Also, *if* you want to make this about systemd vs. SysV again:

Well, systemd, or better the religiosity, systemd is spread, is part of
this particular problem. Exactly that is the case, why so many users
oppose systemd.

However, this should be fight somewhere else. Here we have a real
problem, that is easily fixable. Look at devuan or debian jessie. Just
do not link against libsystemd what pulls in too many uncontrollable
dependencies.

> Pleeease step up and maintain SysV init. For all those vocal people
> who lobbied for it there has been remarkably little action to show for
> it (read: zero):
> 
>   https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/sysvinit.git/log/

Well, why should it have too many changes? It works great. And it is
that well-hung that there is simply not to much to change.

But yes, there could be some bug mitigation. I just wounder, how
frustrated the sysvinit people are about the stuff, systemd people
break everyday.

I snip out the rest as, even if it is fully true and describe the
problem well, it is not about this particular bug.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
Klaus Ethgen   http://www.ethgen.ch/
pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

2016-11-29 Thread Martin Pitt 
Hello Christian,

Cristian Ionescu-Idbohrn [2016-11-29 22:16 +0100]:
> Eversince systemd came about into debian, you've shown direct or
> indirect disrespect, IMO, to people objecting against screwing up
> their systems, where they want to keep sysv instead of adopting
> systemd world domination.

The root issue here is not about the init system, but how initramfses
and separate partitions play together. Separate /usr without an initrd
has always been slightly broken, and it is simply not realistic to
assume that every corner case which once worked for someone can be
indefinitively be "supported". Combinatorial explosion and all.

So, the set of what can be supported is certainly debatable, but as
history has shown it neither makes sense to support this use case nor
did anyone manage to actually do it. Hence the "wontfix".

Also, *if* you want to make this about systemd vs. SysV again:
Pleeease step up and maintain SysV init. For all those vocal people
who lobbied for it there has been remarkably little action to show for
it (read: zero):

  https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/sysvinit.git/log/

Note that the last maintainer upload was two years ago, the rest were
some "life support" NMUs, most/all of them from the systemd
maintainers.

> Arguably, a comment like this:
> 
> > [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=836362#29
> 
> is somewhat over the edge.  Still, it shows the top of the iceberg,
> IMO.  There's a non-ignorable minority who _still_ don't see systemd
> as progress and are not willing to adopt it.  What is really your
> personal mission, I wonder?

Are you sure that this is the right bug? #836362 has absolutely
*nothing* to do with anything here.

> Now, what I hope for is that you will show more respect in your
> comments for those who have not yet "seen the light" [...]

Pretty please: We all do this voluntarily. Tossing in comments like
this will *not* help to raise attention if/once you come up with a
legit problem.

Martin

-- 
Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)

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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

2016-11-29 Thread Cristian Ionescu-Idbohrn 
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 27.11.2016 um 12:32 schrieb Klaus Ethgen:
> > Am So den 27. Nov 2016 um 11:56 schrieb Michael Biebl:
> >> We no longer support a split /usr which is not pre-mounted in the 
> >> initramfs.
> >
> >> So you either have two options:
> >> 1/ Don't use a split /usr
> >> 2/ Use an initramfs to mount /usr
> >
> > And yes, there are still use cases where a separate /usr makes fully
> > sense. Even if you cannot imagine that in your gated reality.
>
> I consider this an adhominem attack and I would appreciate if you stop that.
> This is not the first time [1], so I've CCed the listmasters and bts admins.

Eversince systemd came about into debian, you've shown direct or
indirect disrespect, IMO, to people objecting against screwing up
their systems, where they want to keep sysv instead of adopting
systemd world domination.

Arguably, a comment like this:

> [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=836362#29

is somewhat over the edge.  Still, it shows the top of the iceberg,
IMO.  There's a non-ignorable minority who _still_ don't see systemd
as progress and are not willing to adopt it.  What is really your
personal mission, I wonder?

Now, what I hope for is that you will show more respect in your
comments for those who have not yet "seen the light" systemd brings to
to debian, and also care about the blessings of non-systemd systems
bring to people.

Bottom line.  What you're doing looks more and more religious, _not_
free, with or without the consent of the debian (free)? organisation.


Cheers,

-- 
Cristian

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