Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016, Klaus Ethgen wrote:
> No, it worked well for decades and it was exactly why you have small
> root and resizable /usr on other medias.

It worked because of extraordinary effort by DDs to continuously migrate
libraries from /usr to / any time a binary or library in /bin, /sbin, or
/lib grew a new feature.

And that's not why it existed in the first place, either. See:
http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html

And you can still have them split; you just need an initrd. You can even
use something tiny, like: https://github.com/chris-se/tiny-initramfs

> It start getting broken when systemd start taking over the world.

Correlation is not causation. It has been broken multiple times over the
past two decades. Debian has just stopped supporting it after the switch
to systemd.

> Well, why should it have too many changes? It works great. And it is
> that well-hung that there is simply not to much to change.

If that's the case, you'd think that someone who actually wanted SysV to
be supported going forward would step up and maintain it. But no one
has. So either it's not such a small amount of work, no one who can do
the work is interested in maintaining SysV any longer, or no one knows
that they should be doing the work.

This is Debian. If you want SysV maintained, you should do the work.

-- 
Don Armstrong  https://www.donarmstrong.com

2: There is no out. There is only in.
  -- "The Prisoner (2009 Miniseries)"

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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Julian Andres Klode]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 09:45:08AM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote:
> Am Mi den 30. Nov 2016 um  9:36 schrieb Julian Andres Klode:
> > In your imagination, that is (yes, I too can write stupid replies
> > without any arguments - but I actually can provide arguments too,
> > see below).
> 
> Thanks for insulting me. (I do not really care but it is good when it
> goes against the users but it is bad when it is against DDs?)

I did not insult you. I just wrote that you make claims without
any arguments that do not match reality. In contrast, I demonstrated
that your claims are false and have shown how initramfs is a superior
solution compared a stand-alone root filesystem.

> 
> [systemd religiosity]
> > Just accept reality and move on.
> 
> That would mean to let debian die in its religious systemd world?

It has absolutely nothing to do with systemd.

> 
> > There is no reason to try to keep that separate / madness up anymore:
> > 
> > (1) we have better solutions now
> 
> Seems to be no.

I have given you one reasonable argument that we do have a better
solution with initramfs and proved that it solves all problems
that existed with a separate /usr partition.

> 
> > (2) nobody really uses the it -> no testing
> 
> I didn't know that my name is nobody. And I also didn't know that I
> share this name with many others.

Your name is not nobody. There might be a modest minority of users that
use a separate /usr without an initramfs. Standard Debian installations
use initramfs since a very long time.

And as so often, this stuff breaks. And if it is not used by the people
doing the uploads (and this is a huge group of people), the chance that
it will break installations without anyone noticing early is huge.

> It is just in your limited reality where it is "alternativlos", just to
> qoute chancellor Merkel.

eww.

-- 
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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Martin Pitt]

Hello Martin,

Martin Steigerwald [2016-11-30  9:20 +0100]:
> Also agreed to that… libsystemd is almost one third of the size of libc6.so 
> here… and it seems upstream basically stuffes *everything* into it, including 
> reading process attributes that IMHO would be a task for a *different* shared 
> object like the much lighter libprocps.so.6.0.0.
> 
> But the discussion would need to be brought upstream

Please let me clarify that you are talking about two different issues:

  1. libsystemd being too big, which is the part which can and should
  be discussed on the upstream systemd list indeed, as that's not
  something which is appropriate to change downstream. But this is
  entirely unrelated to this bug report.

  I sympathize with this, and maybe the earlier split into three
  smaller libraries was the better choice. And if someone refrains
  from starting the discussion with a tone like "you guys suck, break
  everything, and want to dominate the world", it might even be
  successful :-) (please forgive me the exaggeration)

  2. Debian supporting separate /usr without an initrd, and by
  extension, if boot-critical bits can link to stuff in /usr, which
  this bug is about. This is entirely a downstream Debian packaging
  issue (we could move liblz4 to /lib, like we did with other
  libraries), and does not belong on an upstream ML.

  Personally I think this part is a lost cause, both for technical
  reasons that have existed for a long time (which I will not repeat
  here), and even more so because the ongoing move to the /usr merge
  will make this completely obsolete -- if the *entire* OS is in /usr,
  then there is no alternative to an initrd anyway. This will finally
  make the whole design simpler, robust, maintainable, and reduce
  combinatorial explosion.

Martin

-- 
Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)

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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Am Mi den 30. Nov 2016 um  9:36 schrieb Julian Andres Klode:
> In your imagination, that is (yes, I too can write stupid replies
> without any arguments - but I actually can provide arguments too,
> see below).

Thanks for insulting me. (I do not really care but it is good when it
goes against the users but it is bad when it is against DDs?)

[systemd religiosity]
> Just accept reality and move on.

That would mean to let debian die in its religious systemd world?

> There is no reason to try to keep that separate / madness up anymore:
> 
> (1) we have better solutions now

Seems to be no.

> (2) nobody really uses the it -> no testing

I didn't know that my name is nobody. And I also didn't know that I
share this name with many others.

It is just in your limited reality where it is "alternativlos", just to
qoute chancellor Merkel.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
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pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Martin Steigerwald]

Am Mittwoch, 30. November 2016, 07:46:31 CET schrieb Klaus Ethgen:
> > Also, *if* you want to make this about systemd vs. SysV again:
> Well, systemd, or better the religiosity, systemd is spread, is part of
> this particular problem. Exactly that is the case, why so many users
> oppose systemd.

I fully agree with that. As I pointed out before the fuss about systemd is not 
just technical, it is a social issue with the way upstream receives and reacts 
to any kind of feedback that criticizes the way systemd goes about things.

> However, this should be fight somewhere else. Here we have a real
> problem, that is easily fixable. Look at devuan or debian jessie. Just
> do not link against libsystemd what pulls in too many uncontrollable
> dependencies.

Also agreed to that… libsystemd is almost one third of the size of libc6.so 
here… and it seems upstream basically stuffes *everything* into it, including 
reading process attributes that IMHO would be a task for a *different* shared 
object like the much lighter libprocps.so.6.0.0.

But the discussion would need to be brought upstream, it just seems that these 
days no one dares to do that. I am not keen to subscribe to systemd-devel 
mailing list ever again after my last attempt to channel user feedback to this 
list and having been attacked with "now you are being a dick" by Lennart 
personally who on the other side rightfully complained about being attacked in 
person himself. (I unsubscribed from debian-devel mailing list back then for 
similar reasons.)

There is a split in the community that has never been healed, people just try 
to ignore it, but I doubt that this bug report would be the right place to go 
about this. And I wonder whether there is someone who would muster to bring up 
the courage to bring this up with upstream again in a constructive way.

Closing with a note to Michael: I learned to know you at DebConf 2016 and I 
value your work. However I didn´t see what you called an ad hominen attack as 
actually being one.

(I may refrain from any further comment here as I think its not really the 
place to discuss it.)

Thank you,
-- 
Martin

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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi Martin,

Am Di den 29. Nov 2016 um 22:36 schrieb Martin Pitt:
> Cristian Ionescu-Idbohrn [2016-11-29 22:16 +0100]:
> > Eversince systemd came about into debian, you've shown direct or
> > indirect disrespect, IMO, to people objecting against screwing up
> > their systems, where they want to keep sysv instead of adopting
> > systemd world domination.
> 
> The root issue here is not about the init system, but how initramfses
> and separate partitions play together. Separate /usr without an initrd
> has always been slightly broken,

No, it worked well for decades and it was exactly why you have small
root and resizable /usr on other medias.

It start getting broken when systemd start taking over the world.

> So, the set of what can be supported is certainly debatable, but as
> history has shown it neither makes sense to support this use case nor
> did anyone manage to actually do it. Hence the "wontfix".

As history shows, that is common use case and makes fully sense.

> Also, *if* you want to make this about systemd vs. SysV again:

Well, systemd, or better the religiosity, systemd is spread, is part of
this particular problem. Exactly that is the case, why so many users
oppose systemd.

However, this should be fight somewhere else. Here we have a real
problem, that is easily fixable. Look at devuan or debian jessie. Just
do not link against libsystemd what pulls in too many uncontrollable
dependencies.

> Pleeease step up and maintain SysV init. For all those vocal people
> who lobbied for it there has been remarkably little action to show for
> it (read: zero):
> 
>   https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/sysvinit.git/log/

Well, why should it have too many changes? It works great. And it is
that well-hung that there is simply not to much to change.

But yes, there could be some bug mitigation. I just wounder, how
frustrated the sysvinit people are about the stuff, systemd people
break everyday.

I snip out the rest as, even if it is fully true and describe the
problem well, it is not about this particular bug.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Martin Pitt]

Hello Christian,

Cristian Ionescu-Idbohrn [2016-11-29 22:16 +0100]:
> Eversince systemd came about into debian, you've shown direct or
> indirect disrespect, IMO, to people objecting against screwing up
> their systems, where they want to keep sysv instead of adopting
> systemd world domination.

The root issue here is not about the init system, but how initramfses
and separate partitions play together. Separate /usr without an initrd
has always been slightly broken, and it is simply not realistic to
assume that every corner case which once worked for someone can be
indefinitively be "supported". Combinatorial explosion and all.

So, the set of what can be supported is certainly debatable, but as
history has shown it neither makes sense to support this use case nor
did anyone manage to actually do it. Hence the "wontfix".

Also, *if* you want to make this about systemd vs. SysV again:
Pleeease step up and maintain SysV init. For all those vocal people
who lobbied for it there has been remarkably little action to show for
it (read: zero):

  https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/sysvinit.git/log/

Note that the last maintainer upload was two years ago, the rest were
some "life support" NMUs, most/all of them from the systemd
maintainers.

> Arguably, a comment like this:
> 
> > [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=836362#29
> 
> is somewhat over the edge.  Still, it shows the top of the iceberg,
> IMO.  There's a non-ignorable minority who _still_ don't see systemd
> as progress and are not willing to adopt it.  What is really your
> personal mission, I wonder?

Are you sure that this is the right bug? #836362 has absolutely
*nothing* to do with anything here.

> Now, what I hope for is that you will show more respect in your
> comments for those who have not yet "seen the light" [...]

Pretty please: We all do this voluntarily. Tossing in comments like
this will *not* help to raise attention if/once you come up with a
legit problem.

Martin

-- 
Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)

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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Cristian Ionescu-Idbohrn]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 27.11.2016 um 12:32 schrieb Klaus Ethgen:
> > Am So den 27. Nov 2016 um 11:56 schrieb Michael Biebl:
> >> We no longer support a split /usr which is not pre-mounted in the 
> >> initramfs.
> >
> >> So you either have two options:
> >> 1/ Don't use a split /usr
> >> 2/ Use an initramfs to mount /usr
> >
> > And yes, there are still use cases where a separate /usr makes fully
> > sense. Even if you cannot imagine that in your gated reality.
>
> I consider this an adhominem attack and I would appreciate if you stop that.
> This is not the first time [1], so I've CCed the listmasters and bts admins.

Eversince systemd came about into debian, you've shown direct or
indirect disrespect, IMO, to people objecting against screwing up
their systems, where they want to keep sysv instead of adopting
systemd world domination.

Arguably, a comment like this:

> [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=836362#29

is somewhat over the edge.  Still, it shows the top of the iceberg,
IMO.  There's a non-ignorable minority who _still_ don't see systemd
as progress and are not willing to adopt it.  What is really your
personal mission, I wonder?

Now, what I hope for is that you will show more respect in your
comments for those who have not yet "seen the light" systemd brings to
to debian, and also care about the blessings of non-systemd systems
bring to people.

Bottom line.  What you're doing looks more and more religious, _not_
free, with or without the consent of the debian (free)? organisation.


Cheers,

-- 
Cristian

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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Am So den 27. Nov 2016 um 11:56 schrieb Michael Biebl:
> We no longer support a split /usr which is not pre-mounted in the initramfs.
> 
> So you either have two options:
> 1/ Don't use a split /usr
> 2/ Use an initramfs to mount /usr

1. I do not use systemd.
2. I have a kernel with no initrd
and 3. That is a problem of udev not able to find what to mount.

Sorry to have to say that. Your answer is expected and unusefull as
usually.

Please stop breaking all stuff with the aggressive systemd forcing!

Regards
   Klaus
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Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Craig Small]

There are several fields that a process can have that are obtained from the
systemd library. man ps and search for systemd shows them all but the ones
I noticed were machine, lsession, ouid, seat and slice that come to mind.


On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 9:41 PM Klaus Ethgen  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Hello Craig,
>
> Am So den 27. Nov 2016 um 11:12 schrieb Craig Small:
> > There is a reason for linking to libsystemd and it is to do with
> accessing
> > the systemd type parameters that can be applied to a process.
>
> But what has ps to do with such a parameter? That might be of concern
> for systemdctl but surelly not for ps.
>
> Regards
>Klaus
> - --
> Klaus Ethgen   http://www.ethgen.ch/
> pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
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Processed: Re: Bug#845480: /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Processing commands for cont...@bugs.debian.org:

> reassign 845480 libsystemd0 232-6
Bug #845480 [procps] /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system 
unbootable
Bug reassigned from package 'procps' to 'libsystemd0'.
No longer marked as found in versions procps/2:3.3.12-2 and procps/2:3.3.12-3.
Ignoring request to alter fixed versions of bug #845480 to the same values 
previously set
Bug #845480 [libsystemd0] /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the 
system unbootable
Marked as found in versions systemd/232-6.
> retitle 845480 libsystemd links to libraries in /usr
Bug #845480 [libsystemd0] /bin/ps depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the 
system unbootable
Changed Bug title to 'libsystemd links to libraries in /usr' from '/bin/ps 
depends on /usr/lib/... which makes the system unbootable'.
> affects 845480 procps
Bug #845480 [libsystemd0] libsystemd links to libraries in /usr
Added indication that 845480 affects procps
> thankyou
Stopping processing here.

Please contact me if you need assistance.
-- 
845480: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845480
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems

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