Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
2014-11-13 13:03 GMT-02:00 Aleix Pol aleix...@kde.org: On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: Aleix, can you please explain to us why Mion Discover and Apper are two different things in principle? Seems the Apper guys disagree. Cheers, Albert There's 2 main differences: 1. Muon Discover has historically used OS metadata to define what are applications an what's relevant to the users (AKA end-user applications). Although they claim it will be done eventually on Apper as well. In any case Muon Discover doesn't aim to manage packages, it aims to provide a library of resources for the user to enhance his KDE/Plasma experience. Apper uses metadata to define application for years now, it also provided Plasma integration for removing applictions directly from kickoff thanks to PackageKit session interface. However on the point of managing packages Apper doesn't tries to merge the two things in a way you don' t need to open another application to install a package... 2. Muon has different backends, so we're not solely relying on PackageKit which means it can act as a frontend to different technologies other than packagekit, currently bodega, KNS/OCS and Apt (the last one for historic and practical reasons). Support for different technologies could also be added to Apper but no one ever stepped up to give a hand, and I myself don't like much these others to do it... Aleix -- Daniel Nicoletti KDE Developer - http://dantti.wordpress.com ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Wednesday 08 October 2014 22:29:45 Albert Astals Cid wrote: kde-gtk-config does not configure how GTK applications work inside of Plasma, is the Gtk theme Configurator made by KDE. I'm almost sure that if you use kde-gtk-config in non plasma it will still change how gtk apps look line. Well, on the other hand it's thought to be used from the systemsettings. A 3rd party project would have to trigger the kcmshell5 or create a separate kcm integration system. Or you know use systemsettings from that other DE. I'm just arguing that the name kde-gtk-config is fine by the branding, not trying to convince you to move stuff around again. Hm, if it's positioned as The GTK configuration GUI made by KDE and not as a part of Plasma, then kde-gtk-config is indeed okay. I guess it's a more general question: Do we position System Settings as part of Plasma? Do we position all KCMs as part of Plasma? The answer to this question will likely have consequences beyond this one here. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: Aleix, can you please explain to us why Mion Discover and Apper are two different things in principle? Seems the Apper guys disagree. Cheers, Albert El Dilluns, 6 d'octubre de 2014, a les 22:46:49, Matthias Klumpp va escriure: 2014-10-06 19:57 GMT+02:00 Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org: El Dilluns, 6 d'octubre de 2014, a les 01:30:47, Aleix Pol va escriure: [...] I don't expect to compete with Apper. Muon Discover is a software center and that's the main solution I'm pushing here, as I explained in Plasma. Apper is a package manager. That is, a way where we can display to our end-users what software there's available and also lets us a couple of tricks to get biased. I (as Apper contributor) would disagree with that - Daniel renamed KPackageKit to Apper years ago to stress that Apper is not about packages, but especially about applications. Unlike Muon or GNOME Software, the goal for Apper is to manage packages and apps in one UI though - and of course, Apper provides the session interface for PackageKit, which Muon does not (yet?). Does Muon work well with PackageKit on !Debian-based distros? I had lots of trouble with porting the Ubuntu Software Center to PK, since PK uses a completely different paradigm and API, compared to the Aptdaemon interface the USC used, so it would have required a complete rewrite. Last time I looked at QApt, it looked slightly more similar to Aptd compared to the PK API. (I'll soon test Muon on Fedora by myself, but more from an what can be improved in AppStream? PoV) I think this is very important, because it opens an opportunity to offer the end-user the full KDE experience we've been talking about. So far, the way everyone had to expose software was by creating a (usually spin-off) distribution where there was tons of software pre-installed. By providing a software center we open channels to communicate with the user where he can leverage on previous' users experience, as well as our own. I'm not sure I understand the difference between a Software Center and a Package Manager, can you elaborate what is the difference? Software Center almost always means that it shows GUI apps instead of packages, where app is more tightly defined as stuff which ship a .desktop file in share/applictions with Type=application. Package Managers display all kinds of packages on the system, including debug symbol packages and e.g. header packages. The Software Centers are generally thought to be more end-user friendly, while package managers have a technically advanced user as target audience. Cheers, Matthias There's 2 main differences: 1. Muon Discover has historically used OS metadata to define what are applications an what's relevant to the users (AKA end-user applications). Although they claim it will be done eventually on Apper as well. In any case Muon Discover doesn't aim to manage packages, it aims to provide a library of resources for the user to enhance his KDE/Plasma experience. 2. Muon has different backends, so we're not solely relying on PackageKit which means it can act as a frontend to different technologies other than packagekit, currently bodega, KNS/OCS and Apt (the last one for historic and practical reasons). Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer thomas.pfeif...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? To be honest, I don't care. In fact it used to be called Chakra GTK Config. It will need somebody to do the change (I can do it, at least on the kde side) and it will require distros to adopt the new name, but if it is going to make someone's life easier I'm all for it. Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
El Dimecres, 8 d'octubre de 2014, a les 21:02:32, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer thomas.pfeif...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? kde-gtk-config does not configure how GTK applications work inside of Plasma, is the Gtk theme Configurator made by KDE. I'm almost sure that if you use kde-gtk-config in non plasma it will still change how gtk apps look line. Cheers, Albert To be honest, I don't care. In fact it used to be called Chakra GTK Config. It will need somebody to do the change (I can do it, at least on the kde side) and it will require distros to adopt the new name, but if it is going to make someone's life easier I'm all for it. Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Dimecres, 8 d'octubre de 2014, a les 21:02:32, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer thomas.pfeif...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? kde-gtk-config does not configure how GTK applications work inside of Plasma, is the Gtk theme Configurator made by KDE. I'm almost sure that if you use kde-gtk-config in non plasma it will still change how gtk apps look line. Cheers, Albert To be honest, I don't care. In fact it used to be called Chakra GTK Config. It will need somebody to do the change (I can do it, at least on the kde side) and it will require distros to adopt the new name, but if it is going to make someone's life easier I'm all for it. Aleix Well, on the other hand it's thought to be used from the systemsettings. A 3rd party project would have to trigger the kcmshell5 or create a separate kcm integration system. From my point of view, they should convince us then to move it to KDE Applications releases (or just use the one we distribute with the workspace). Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
El Dimecres, 8 d'octubre de 2014, a les 22:23:44, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Dimecres, 8 d'octubre de 2014, a les 21:02:32, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer thomas.pfeif...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? kde-gtk-config does not configure how GTK applications work inside of Plasma, is the Gtk theme Configurator made by KDE. I'm almost sure that if you use kde-gtk-config in non plasma it will still change how gtk apps look line. Cheers, Albert To be honest, I don't care. In fact it used to be called Chakra GTK Config. It will need somebody to do the change (I can do it, at least on the kde side) and it will require distros to adopt the new name, but if it is going to make someone's life easier I'm all for it. Aleix Well, on the other hand it's thought to be used from the systemsettings. A 3rd party project would have to trigger the kcmshell5 or create a separate kcm integration system. Or you know use systemsettings from that other DE. I'm just arguing that the name kde-gtk-config is fine by the branding, not trying to convince you to move stuff around again. Cheers, Albert From my point of view, they should convince us then to move it to KDE Applications releases (or just use the one we distribute with the workspace). Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
Aleix Pol ha scritto: On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org mailto:aa...@kde.org wrote: El Dimecres, 8 d'octubre de 2014, a les 21:02:32, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer thomas.pfeif...@kde.org mailto:thomas.pfeif...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? kde-gtk-config does not configure how GTK applications work inside of Plasma, is the Gtk theme Configurator made by KDE. I'm almost sure that if you use kde-gtk-config in non plasma it will still change how gtk apps look line. Cheers, Albert To be honest, I don't care. In fact it used to be called Chakra GTK Config. It will need somebody to do the change (I can do it, at least on the kde side) and it will require distros to adopt the new name, but if it is going to make someone's life easier I'm all for it. Aleix Well, on the other hand it's thought to be used from the systemsettings. A 3rd party project would have to trigger the kcmshell5 or create a separate kcm integration system. Isn't it the same path that 3rd party projects need to do to use/let use configure stuff like proxy, web shortcuts, etc...? Amarok could run the Phonon KCM for a while. Ciao -- Luigi ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Diumenge, 5 d'octubre de 2014, a les 20:30:33, Albert Astals Cid va escriure: El Divendres, 3 d'octubre de 2014, a les 03:28:44, Aleix Pol va escriure: Changes: - kde-gtk-config was moved from extragear/base to kde/workspace. - muon was moved from extragear/sysadmin to kde/workspace. I'm confused muon has been moved to kde/workspace that is home of all KF5- based workspace apps but it's master is still based in kdelibs4? Why is that? I was waiting for Kubuntu to freeze, in case they needed a last new KDE4 version. That's in the past anyway, so I went forward and merged frameworks to master. Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
KDE can still be used to mean by the KDE community. This kcm could be legitimately used from Xfce/lxde. So I think its OK. On 7 Oct 2014 15:13, Thomas Pfeiffer thomas.pfeif...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 05 October 2014 20:30:33 Albert Astals Cid wrote: The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. Risking that someone might kill me for saying this: Given that this configures how GTK applications work inside Plasma and not inside the KDE community, shouldn't it be renamed to plasma-gtk-config so we don't add to the branding confusion with our own package names? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Tuesday 07 October 2014 15:28:21 David Edmundson wrote: KDE can still be used to mean by the KDE community. This kcm could be legitimately used from Xfce/lxde. So I think its OK. Wait, wasn't the argument for releasing it with Plasma that we think it doesn't make much sense outside Plasma? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
El Dilluns, 6 d'octubre de 2014, a les 01:30:47, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Divendres, 3 d'octubre de 2014, a les 03:28:44, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Divendres, 3 d'octubre de 2014, a les 00:04:42, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:34 PM, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: Hi all, It seems there has been a recent outbreak of repository moves which have been extremely poorly co-ordinated by those doing the requests. In addition, it is actually a requirement that modules moving from Extragear into (what was at least) the SC need to re-transit through KDE Review.It is also considered proper practice to at least inform the translation, documentation and release teams in advance you intend to make these moves - something which has also been neglected. For all further repository structure moves - please ensure you have received the appropriate consent from the above mentioned teams, and have announced them on the appropriate mailing lists in advance. @Plasma team: plasma-devel@kde.org does not constitute an appropriate mailing list, as it is not a community wide development mailing list. Only kde-devel and kde-core-devel qualify for this. Thanks, Ben Cooksley KDE Sysadmin My apologies, I shouldn't have rushed into doing such moves and send e-mails to all the interested parties. If someone considers it appropriate, I can roll some of the changes back. Maybe you should explain the changes so people is aware of them :) Cheers, Albert Aleix Changes: - kde-gtk-config was moved from extragear/base to kde/workspace. - muon was moved from extragear/sysadmin to kde/workspace. That is, only projects.kde.org structure change. That's a total understament, it changes them from being something extra to be something totally core. So it's not only at all. The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. The muon move i see as much less clear, there are other installers provided by KDE (kpackagekit comes to mind) and muon is not widely used (AFAIK) outside KUbuntu, thus putting all the weight of making it a core thing is something I think we should not be doing without a bigger discussion with the community, and not just in Plasma. I don't expect to compete with Apper. Muon Discover is a software center and that's the main solution I'm pushing here, as I explained in Plasma. Apper is a package manager. That is, a way where we can display to our end-users what software there's available and also lets us a couple of tricks to get biased. I think this is very important, because it opens an opportunity to offer the end-user the full KDE experience we've been talking about. So far, the way everyone had to expose software was by creating a (usually spin-off) distribution where there was tons of software pre-installed. By providing a software center we open channels to communicate with the user where he can leverage on previous' users experience, as well as our own. I'm not sure I understand the difference between a Software Center and a Package Manager, can you elaborate what is the difference? Cheers, Albert ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
2014-10-06 19:57 GMT+02:00 Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org: El Dilluns, 6 d'octubre de 2014, a les 01:30:47, Aleix Pol va escriure: [...] I don't expect to compete with Apper. Muon Discover is a software center and that's the main solution I'm pushing here, as I explained in Plasma. Apper is a package manager. That is, a way where we can display to our end-users what software there's available and also lets us a couple of tricks to get biased. I (as Apper contributor) would disagree with that - Daniel renamed KPackageKit to Apper years ago to stress that Apper is not about packages, but especially about applications. Unlike Muon or GNOME Software, the goal for Apper is to manage packages and apps in one UI though - and of course, Apper provides the session interface for PackageKit, which Muon does not (yet?). Does Muon work well with PackageKit on !Debian-based distros? I had lots of trouble with porting the Ubuntu Software Center to PK, since PK uses a completely different paradigm and API, compared to the Aptdaemon interface the USC used, so it would have required a complete rewrite. Last time I looked at QApt, it looked slightly more similar to Aptd compared to the PK API. (I'll soon test Muon on Fedora by myself, but more from an what can be improved in AppStream? PoV) I think this is very important, because it opens an opportunity to offer the end-user the full KDE experience we've been talking about. So far, the way everyone had to expose software was by creating a (usually spin-off) distribution where there was tons of software pre-installed. By providing a software center we open channels to communicate with the user where he can leverage on previous' users experience, as well as our own. I'm not sure I understand the difference between a Software Center and a Package Manager, can you elaborate what is the difference? Software Center almost always means that it shows GUI apps instead of packages, where app is more tightly defined as stuff which ship a .desktop file in share/applictions with Type=application. Package Managers display all kinds of packages on the system, including debug symbol packages and e.g. header packages. The Software Centers are generally thought to be more end-user friendly, while package managers have a technically advanced user as target audience. Cheers, Matthias ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
El Diumenge, 5 d'octubre de 2014, a les 20:30:33, Albert Astals Cid va escriure: El Divendres, 3 d'octubre de 2014, a les 03:28:44, Aleix Pol va escriure: Changes: - kde-gtk-config was moved from extragear/base to kde/workspace. - muon was moved from extragear/sysadmin to kde/workspace. I'm confused muon has been moved to kde/workspace that is home of all KF5- based workspace apps but it's master is still based in kdelibs4? Why is that? Cheers, Albert ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Muon and kde-gtk-config moved to kde/workspace - was - Re: Moving repositories in the module structure
On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Divendres, 3 d'octubre de 2014, a les 03:28:44, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Divendres, 3 d'octubre de 2014, a les 00:04:42, Aleix Pol va escriure: On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:34 PM, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: Hi all, It seems there has been a recent outbreak of repository moves which have been extremely poorly co-ordinated by those doing the requests. In addition, it is actually a requirement that modules moving from Extragear into (what was at least) the SC need to re-transit through KDE Review.It is also considered proper practice to at least inform the translation, documentation and release teams in advance you intend to make these moves - something which has also been neglected. For all further repository structure moves - please ensure you have received the appropriate consent from the above mentioned teams, and have announced them on the appropriate mailing lists in advance. @Plasma team: plasma-devel@kde.org does not constitute an appropriate mailing list, as it is not a community wide development mailing list. Only kde-devel and kde-core-devel qualify for this. Thanks, Ben Cooksley KDE Sysadmin My apologies, I shouldn't have rushed into doing such moves and send e-mails to all the interested parties. If someone considers it appropriate, I can roll some of the changes back. Maybe you should explain the changes so people is aware of them :) Cheers, Albert Aleix Changes: - kde-gtk-config was moved from extragear/base to kde/workspace. - muon was moved from extragear/sysadmin to kde/workspace. That is, only projects.kde.org structure change. That's a total understament, it changes them from being something extra to be something totally core. So it's not only at all. The reasoning is that this way they will be released together with Plasma Workspace. I don't see that anyone can have a problem with kde-gtk-config. The muon move i see as much less clear, there are other installers provided by KDE (kpackagekit comes to mind) and muon is not widely used (AFAIK) outside KUbuntu, thus putting all the weight of making it a core thing is something I think we should not be doing without a bigger discussion with the community, and not just in Plasma. As they've been used they don't really make sense outside Plasma (especially the first) and we want to make sure that distros know these components are designed to work together with Plasma. you're saying muon doesn't make sense outside plasma? how come? How does it stop working? I'm pretty sure he's talking about kde-gtk-config here. his list was kde-gtk-config then muon. kde-gtk-config isn't useful outside of plasma, muon probably is though I would think... I didn't notify kde-core-devel because it didn't occur to me that the community would have an opinion regarding whether it's me who releases the packages or Jonathan (who has been doing the Plasma packages). Again, that's a total understament, i feel very sad you think that extragear/base vs kde/workspace is just who releases the packages. Can you also please clarify to which release of plasma do you want to add this packages? I hope Plasma 5.2 since we're less than two weeks away from 5.1 release and Beta has been released already, right? Cheers, Albert Cheers! Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
