Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Martin Gräßlin wrote: > Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that > xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-) They'll find a way around that too. "If you make something idiot-proof, nature builds a better idiot." ;-) (And sorry, I don't remember who originally came up with that citation.) Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Monday 03 October 2011 21:31:19 Kevin Kofler wrote: > Martin Gräßlin wrote: > > What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? > > * I would switch to another DE > > * I would complain > > * I would miss them but could live without them > > * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me > > * Don't care > > You forgot option 6: > * Come up with some buggy hack to use xscreensaver directly (maybe even with > a custom idle detector which runs it in test mode, you never know what > "creative" hacks people come up with), advertise it loudly as THE solution > to "fix" screen savers in KDE Plasma, then rush the forums together with all > the followers using that "fix" to complain loudly about everything that > breaks due to the hack, blaming Plasma for it. > (because that's exactly what I expect to happen). Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-) > > Kevin Kofler > > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Martin Gräßlin wrote: > What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? > * I would switch to another DE > * I would complain > * I would miss them but could live without them > * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me > * Don't care You forgot option 6: * Come up with some buggy hack to use xscreensaver directly (maybe even with a custom idle detector which runs it in test mode, you never know what "creative" hacks people come up with), advertise it loudly as THE solution to "fix" screen savers in KDE Plasma, then rush the forums together with all the followers using that "fix" to complain loudly about everything that breaks due to the hack, blaming Plasma for it. (because that's exactly what I expect to happen). Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 14:15:01 Luca Beltrame wrote: > In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:43:43, Ivan Čukić ha scritto: > > > It needs to specify that "no X Screensavers" doesn't mean "no screensavers" > > krop on IRC raised an interesting question: is this "drop of support" related > to just support, or also library dependencies? This because some stuff such as > KIdleTime might depend on these. This should not affect libraries at all. All D-Bus interfaces will be the same, just the visualization is changed. Cheers Martin > > -- > Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team > KDE Science supporter > GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 13:27:13 Luca Beltrame wrote: > In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 12:19:02, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto: > > > Poll created: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?ff&t�102 > > I just blogged about this, so the poll gets more exposure. cool thanks - I plan to also blog about it tomorrow when I have the first screenshot with a QML-ified unlock dialog ;-) Cheers Martin > > -- > Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team > KDE Science supporter > GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 22:07:30 Ben Cooksley wrote: > On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Martin Gräßlin wrote: > > On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote: > >> In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto: > >> > >> > without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop > >> > one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or > >> > the > >> > KDE-3-style "folder view as desktop" mode), complaints will start > >> > popping in > >> > >> I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting > >> settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to "no folderview shown", but to > >> the first time when the workspace abolished "show the desktop by default". > >> I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums. > >> > >> Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would > >> help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside > >> from > >> user support). > > good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the > > forum support something like a questionaire: > > Probably the Workspace forum. The forum has inbuilt Polls support > which you can use to run the questionaire below. Any forum user can > create Polls. Poll created: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?ff&t�102 > > > What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? > > * I would switch to another DE > > * I would complain > > * I would miss them but could live without them > > * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me > > * Don't care > > > > Cheers > > Martin > >> > >> -- > >> Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team > >> KDE Science supporter > >> GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 > > > > ___ > > Plasma-devel mailing list > > Plasma-devel@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel > > > > > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Martin Gräßlin wrote: > On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote: >> In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto: >> >> > without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop >> > one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the >> > KDE-3-style "folder view as desktop" mode), complaints will start popping >> > in >> >> I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting >> settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to "no folderview shown", but to >> the first time when the workspace abolished "show the desktop by default". >> I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums. >> >> Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would >> help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside >> from >> user support). > good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the forum > support something like a questionaire: Probably the Workspace forum. The forum has inbuilt Polls support which you can use to run the questionaire below. Any forum user can create Polls. > What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? > * I would switch to another DE > * I would complain > * I would miss them but could live without them > * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me > * Don't care > > Cheers > Martin >> >> -- >> Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team >> KDE Science supporter >> GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 > > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel > > ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
> What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? It needs to specify that "no X Screensavers" doesn't mean "no screensavers" -- Cheerio, Ivan -- While you were hanging yourself on someone else's words Dying to believe in what you heard I was staring straight into the shining sun ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote: > In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto: > > > without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop > > one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the > > KDE-3-style "folder view as desktop" mode), complaints will start popping in > > I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting > settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to "no folderview shown", but to > the first time when the workspace abolished "show the desktop by default". > I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums. > > Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would > help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside > from > user support). good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the forum support something like a questionaire: What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE * I would complain * I would miss them but could live without them * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me * Don't care Cheers Martin > > -- > Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team > KDE Science supporter > GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Saturday 01 October 2011 04:46:29 Markus Slopianka wrote: > Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use > screensavers these > days? > Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the > top answers. > QML replacements should be available for the top uses once the xscreensaver > code is > dropped. (IMHO at least.) I don't have empirical studies but given the bug reports we get OpenGL screensavers seem to be quite common these days as well and I think that's the group which would be difficult. Those who really need the Matrix screensaver. On the other hand most screensavers are low quality and hardly updated. What could help is to get some data from the distros how many users have screensavers actually installed. Cheers Martin > > On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can > > unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have > > more opinions: screensaver. > > > > What's important to see: screen locker and screen saver are two different > > things mixed together for historic reasons. The screen locker implements > > the security aspect of preventing someone else to use the screen. The > > screen saver shows an animation so that the hardware is not damaged. For > > some reasons those two things come together and also the old > > implementation is together. > > > > The new implementation is about screen locking and not saving. My idea is > > to improve the screen locking experience which kind of looks like 1995. > > Let's reuse the background of the splash screen and show a nice QML-ified > > dialog for unlocking. Instead of showing the unlock dialog only when > > someone moves the mouse, it would always be present. If the screen has > > been locked for long time DPMS kicks in and disables the screen (yeah for > > energy saving). > > > > This means there is no more place for screen savers. It would just not be > > visible. This also means we don't have the Plasma Screensaver any more > > (this might be fixable by using a Plasma containment as the screen locker > > in the first place). > > > > But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old > > implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that > > code. > > > > So there are some solutions: > > * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles > > as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen > > locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first > > option) > > * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same > > security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the > > screen locker to KWin in the first place > > > > Personally I would prefer option 1 with a later implementation of option 2 > > (if time allows even for 4.8). Option 2 needs support from Plasma hackers > > who are all currently fixing up a tablet ;-) > > > > A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that > > security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an > > improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do > > not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog > > would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant > > usage after typing in the password. > > > > So looking forward to your comments on the subject. > > > > Cheers > > Martin > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Friday 30 September 2011 12:38:34 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > On Thursday, September 29, 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote: > > * add Plasma widget support to new screen > > locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first > > option) > > +1 for this. > > if the lock screen is QML, when we get a QML version with OpenGL shaders > people can go crazy creating new screensavers in all their glory. I just had a lengthy discussion about it with my GSoC student and we came up with the following plan: * for 4.8 use a hack to fall back to the legacy implementation if a screen saver is configured * advertise the new functionality in the release announcement including that you don't get the new super-awesome lock screen if you use an old screensaver and that the old screensavers are not secure * advertise a new improved screen saver functionality in 4.9 based on QML with GHNS integration and more * announce that the old screen saver support will be removed in 4.9 in favor for the new support and because it's an old X dependency which we need to remove in order to start the transition to Wayland This gives us no pressure to implement everything now for 4.8 and we don't have unhappy users. In best case we already have the new QML screen saver support in 4.8 and can get the community to port their screen savers to QML. Also we give a good technical reason why we have to drop the screensavers. I hope that makes everyone happy :-) (and is also the easiest way for me in 4.8 as I don't want to spend too much time on screen savers). Cheers Martin > > for Plasma widgets: it would mean creating a Containment and loading the > configuration in that Containment; which means: not much. > > the current Plasma widgets support has a bunch of complicated code for working > with (or more accurately: around) the screensaver unlocker window dialog. with > a QML locker that doesn't require such hacking about, the code should be a lot > simpler and cleaner. > > i don't think we can just drop the widgets-on-locker functionality, however, > as that's an actual real-world-useful feature (whereas screensavers are an > anachronism) > > -- > Aaron J. Seigo > humru othro a kohnu se > GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 > > KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
