Re: [PLUG] Scripts vs GUI
As someone who's career is built on automation, I agree with all of you :) A good GUI abstracts more than automates, but that is more pedantic. Automation is for brain dead, repetitive tasks, as Keith pointed out, but a good GUI, yeah, King Beowulf is right. A picture is worth a thousand words. You can't get a status on the web server farm by reading through scripts. CLI allows you to build it and keep it working operationally, but the GUIs allow you to manage the higher level complex tasks of assimilating and showing information fast for decision making. As for SCP, yeah I'd script that. > On Dec 11, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > >> On 12/10/2016 10:15 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote: >> ... >> The power of Unix/Linux is that shell scripts can automate >> what you do frequently. >> ... > >> On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 01:21:21AM -0800, King Beowulf wrote: >> ... >> Often a properly designed GUI is quicker and more intuitive that trying >> to remember and track obscure CLI options stuffed into a script >> somewhere. >> ... > > If you reread what I wrote, it is about making your > own SHELL SCRIPTS for frequently used tasks. You > can connect to your scripts with the command line, > or you can add a desktop icon, or add an icon to > the Gnome/KDE menu. CREATE and AUTOMATE. > > There are tools for capturing and automating mouse > clicks. But your desktop icons can move around, > so that is very fragile. > > Rich mentions LyX for working with LaTeX, which I have > tried using. Too inflexible, too much work to iterate > towards what I want, too subject to the changing whims > of GUI re-designers. My documents are built out of > segments of other documents, dozens of interations, > often with other tools (like povray) making some of > the elements of the complete document. Concatenating > documents with shell scripts is easier after iteration > two, and vital on a tight deadline. > > My dear wife uses the desktop and GUI far more than I > do; the icons and documents are piled on top of each > other on her desktop, and she cannot find anything. > Her desktop has meeting minutes from two years ago, > but she can't use grep to locate what she worked on > last month. With grep and text sources, I can find > meeting minutes from 20 years ago; more specifically, > a document in a specific two week time window 20 > years ago - on half a dozen machines, with different > distro versions. > > If I put that search in a script, with a few comments, > I can use it again in the future. I can rewrite it to > look for another time window, without needing to > remember how to use rarely used grep options. When I > have many such scripts, I can use grep to find them. > > Simple shell programming (with comments!) is an > investment in the future. Some people "organize" their > information and tasks like they have no future. They > work like blue collar assembly line workers, repeating > the same manual operations over and over until they get > old and they can't hold their hands steady any more. > Or programmers replace them with a robot. > > Keith > > -- > Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com > ___ > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Scripts vs GUI
On 12/10/2016 10:15 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > ... > The power of Unix/Linux is that shell scripts can automate > what you do frequently. > ... On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 01:21:21AM -0800, King Beowulf wrote: > ... > Often a properly designed GUI is quicker and more intuitive that trying > to remember and track obscure CLI options stuffed into a script > somewhere. > ... If you reread what I wrote, it is about making your own SHELL SCRIPTS for frequently used tasks. You can connect to your scripts with the command line, or you can add a desktop icon, or add an icon to the Gnome/KDE menu. CREATE and AUTOMATE. There are tools for capturing and automating mouse clicks. But your desktop icons can move around, so that is very fragile. Rich mentions LyX for working with LaTeX, which I have tried using. Too inflexible, too much work to iterate towards what I want, too subject to the changing whims of GUI re-designers. My documents are built out of segments of other documents, dozens of interations, often with other tools (like povray) making some of the elements of the complete document. Concatenating documents with shell scripts is easier after iteration two, and vital on a tight deadline. My dear wife uses the desktop and GUI far more than I do; the icons and documents are piled on top of each other on her desktop, and she cannot find anything. Her desktop has meeting minutes from two years ago, but she can't use grep to locate what she worked on last month. With grep and text sources, I can find meeting minutes from 20 years ago; more specifically, a document in a specific two week time window 20 years ago - on half a dozen machines, with different distro versions. If I put that search in a script, with a few comments, I can use it again in the future. I can rewrite it to look for another time window, without needing to remember how to use rarely used grep options. When I have many such scripts, I can use grep to find them. Simple shell programming (with comments!) is an investment in the future. Some people "organize" their information and tasks like they have no future. They work like blue collar assembly line workers, repeating the same manual operations over and over until they get old and they can't hold their hands steady any more. Or programmers replace them with a robot. Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com ___ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Scripts vs GUI
On Sun, 2016-12-11 at 07:57 -0800, Rich Shepard wrote: > On Sun, 11 Dec 2016, David Fleck wrote: > > > I'll just step in here and say that I have never, ever found this to be > > the case. Your mileage varies, obviously. > > David, > >Compare writing LaTeX in emacs vs. in LyX. :-) That's a serious advantage > of the GUI. True, but the original context was "in automation". GUIs obviously have their uses, but where they will do best is in those situations where you have to manually craft what you are doing with constant intervention and oversight. -- David Fleck ___ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Scripts vs GUI
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016, David Fleck wrote: > I'll just step in here and say that I have never, ever found this to be > the case. Your mileage varies, obviously. David, Compare writing LaTeX in emacs vs. in LyX. :-) That's a serious advantage of the GUI. Regards, Rich ___ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Scripts vs GUI
On Sun, 2016-12-11 at 01:21 -0800, King Beowulf wrote: > I disagree that the CLI is the most efficient method on > all cases. It is the CLI that is manual labor and a good GUI that is > automation. I'll just step in here and say that I have never, ever found this to be the case. Your mileage varies, obviously. -- David Fleck ___ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
Re: [PLUG] Scripts vs GUI
On 12/10/2016 10:15 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> On another Linux list, someone asked fpr a GUI to simplify
> using scp ("too easy to make a mistake on the command
> line"), and someone else suggested "fileroller".
>
> I suggested figuring out how to use scp once (examples on
> the web, man pages for more information), then putting an
> example in a shell script. Want a different file? Copy
> the shell script and modify it.
>
> The power of Unix/Linux is that shell scripts can automate
> what you do frequently. You can store your shell scripts
> in your own ~/bin, or share them in /usr/local/bin. Put
> comments in the scripts so you can figure them out the
> next time, or find them with grep if you forgot what you
> named them.
>
> Some tasks, like looking at web pages, are better done
> with a web browser, but for repeated web accesses, even
> that can be automated with wget in a shell script.
>
> GUIs are manual labor. If you want arm exercise, grow a
> garden and get sunshine and vegetables for your efforts.
>
> Keith
>
This is true only to a point. I use the CLI for a variety of tasks
(qemu, screen, vnc, ffmpeg, ssh, package compiles/updates, searches,
etc). However, Humans are visual pattern recognition engines. Thus, I
often wrap my scripts with ncurses or zenity for ease of use - i.e., a GUI.
Often a properly designed GUI is quicker and more intuitive that trying
to remember and track obscure CLI options stuffed into a script
somewhere. Special purpose portable devices are better served with a
GUI wrapped around a Linux/Unix core - or perhaps you would prefer a CLI
smartphone?
Having spent some decades on the CLI, I for one enjoy a good X windows
desktop environment with nice application GUIs for email, IRC, zenmap,
newsgroups, scanning, ebooks, etc.
So while I agree that every computer user should learn the basics of the
command line, I disagree that the CLI is the most efficient method on
all cases. It is the CLI that is manual labor and a good GUI that is
automation.
In conclusion, instead of forcing one's world view onto someone else
when a simple question is asked, perhaps it is better to either just
click through (ignore) or provide a useful answer (help).
Do for those who are curious about GUI ssh/scp/sftp, there are a number
of choices, with varying features and learning curves (in no particular
order):
Gnome Connection Manager
gftp
Filezilla
FireFTP (Firefox extension)
Dolphin (part of KDE)
Krusader
Midnight Commander (CLI and GUI!)
Secpanel
Putty (GUI to configure connection, xterm CLI to transfer)
Most file managers of the major dektop environments support some form of
scp/sftp.
-Ed
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[PLUG] 4k displays with video card recommendations?
I have a very early i7 quadcore desktop box with a dual monitor setup. However, it has some annoying features, not least being the bezels on the two displays running down the middle. I'm interested in getting a single 4K display to replace them, maybe in the 30-36" diagonal range. In addition, I'd need a suitable linux-friendly video card to drive it. Has anyone set up a 4K rig with recommendations on hardware? Thanks! -- Russell Senior, President russ...@personaltelco.net ___ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
