Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
I haven't looked at it's code myself but you get the idea. The same reasoning applies to many projects that people complain about not being updated. For that matter what is the deal about not having python2 on Debian bullseye? I see instructions all over the Internet for installing it. Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Russell Senior Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 6:47 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) Moinmoin isn't a binary, fwiw. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 17:31 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble > >to > find > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of > things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public > source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Heinlein > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > MediaWiki - why?) > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ > > RB > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy > > VT > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy > > 6c > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4 > > xn > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. > > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. > > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to > find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a > reasonable set of parameters). > > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy > I wouldn't have a job. > > -- > Paul Heinlein > heinl...@madboa.com > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W > >
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
GTK2 abandonment caused problems for a number of small projects but you can still in general find libs for gtk2 on most of the larger distros. $5k for "fixing" moinmoin is pretty fair I'd say. Version 2 is, after all, installable and runs. The maintainer says it's "unstable" but I have to wonder if that's really true. Sometimes that language is code for "it works but I don't want to spend time answering your RTFM questions and the community isn't large enough yet to do it" Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Ben Koenig Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 11:15 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) I wonder why WINE, FFMPEG, the Linux Kernel, all mainstream distros... - KDE - GNOME - XFCE - QT - GTK and many other projects DO NOT have this problem, despite all of them being infinitely more complex than a collection of python scripts. The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. FWIW... $5000 for a 2to3 conversion of moinmoin is a fucking insult to the developer who ends up doing all the work. But if Debian needs a modern system to run their moinmoin wiki I'd be happy to set them up with a Slackware 15.0 installation with python2.7. -Ben --- Original Message --- On Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble > > to find > > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable > > set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public > source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted >
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
Per https://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2/InstallDebian and https://github.com/moinwiki/moin version 2.0+ it is "unstable, for production please use 1.9.x." Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Russell Senior Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2023 1:06 AM To: plug@pdxlinux.org Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) On 7/31/23 23:15, Ben Koenig wrote: > The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the > maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more > love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big > projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to > fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. The wikipedia entry says "a steamed or boiled bean pudding". I think what actually happened is that v1.x achieved a kind of stability and it basically didn't change for a decade and the people who knew how it worked kind of wandered away. It was only the abandonment of python2 that has led to the "crisis". There has been a slow moving effort to build a v2 of MoinMoin, but it's reportedly not ready for production, or wasn't when I looked last (again, about a year ago). -- Russell Senior russ...@pdxlinux.org
Re: [PLUG] August PLUG Meeting: Using DRBD and LINSTOR to Facilitate Cloud Migration and Mobility (In person!) [Bulk]
Hi, Why still masks? Thanks and best regards, Don -Original Message- From: PLUG On Behalf Of Michael Dexter Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 12:38 AM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Announcements ; Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: [PLUG] August PLUG Meeting: Using DRBD and LINSTOR to Facilitate Cloud Migration and Mobility (In person!) [Bulk] ⚠ External Portland Linux/Unix Group General Meeting Announcement Who: Julia Iacoviello What: Using DRBD and LINSTOR to Facilitate Cloud Migration and Mobility Where: 5500 SW Dosch Rd, Portland When: Thursday, August 3rd, 2023 at 7pm Why: The pursuit of technology freedom There are many advantages to flexible cloud storage, but even with a good idea of how you might implement your environment in the cloud, the challenge of transferring legacy data may stand in your way. In this talk, Julia Iacoviello from LINBIT will explain core concepts of the open source, distributed replicated storage system, DRBD, as well as the open source storage management software, LINSTOR. Then, we will explore how these technologies can be leveraged to mitigate pain points in migrating production databases and other services into the cloud, including to containerized applications that rely on persistent stateful storage. Special considerations to be made for migration of existing data will be highlighted in this talk; additionally, a broad base of information about DRBD and general high-availability storage will be provided, with the hope that all that attend may learn something applicable to their particular use case, now or in the future. Rules and Requests: Please bring and properly fit a mask unless actively presenting PLUG is open to everyone and does not tolerate abusive behavior on its mailing lists or at its meetings Do not leave valuables in your car Calagator Page: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calagator.org/events/1250480625__;!!Lom6iu8t!9aw9hT7xwWPiRqmmCnt1HxcjXy0wc-kzJmD66xtEoXa2H1ot1m36TW51h4eoz0Ildg5WjeVDiXaMeEe-$ Google Maps Link: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/place/5500*SW*Dosch*Rd,*Portland,*OR*97239__;KysrKysr!!Lom6iu8t!9aw9hT7xwWPiRqmmCnt1HxcjXy0wc-kzJmD66xtEoXa2H1ot1m36TW51h4eoz0Ildg5WjeVDiZnrmfx4$ Some might head to Hillsdale Brewery & Public House near the Library: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mcmenamins.com/hillsdale-brewery-public-house__;!!Lom6iu8t!9aw9hT7xwWPiRqmmCnt1HxcjXy0wc-kzJmD66xtEoXa2H1ot1m36TW51h4eoz0Ildg5WjeVDiWKYy5vB$ Rideshares likely available PLUG Page with information about all PLUG events: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://pdxlinux.org/__;!!Lom6iu8t!9aw9hT7xwWPiRqmmCnt1HxcjXy0wc-kzJmD66xtEoXa2H1ot1m36TW51h4eoz0Ildg5WjeVDidYENfZD$ Michael Dexter PLUG Volunteer Disclaimer: This communication and any attachments contain private, confidential, privileged and/or proprietary information intended solely for the Recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended Recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If received in error, we apologize and ask that you please notify the Sender by returning this e-mail and permanently deleting this communication from your computer, including destruction of any printed copies. Any views expressed herein are not necessarily those of the Company represented by this e-mail source. No contracts, agreements or legally binding understandings may be entered into solely by an e-mail communication.
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
--- Original Message --- On Tuesday, August 1st, 2023 at 1:06 AM, Russell Senior wrote: > > On 7/31/23 23:15, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to > > the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases > > get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how > > many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has > > bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. > > The wikipedia entry says "a steamed or boiled bean pudding". > > I think what actually happened is that v1.x achieved a kind of stability > and it basically didn't change for a decade and the people who knew how > it worked kind of wandered away. It was only the abandonment of python2 > that has led to the "crisis". There has been a slow moving effort to > build a v2 of MoinMoin, but it's reportedly not ready for production, or > wasn't when I looked last (again, about a year ago). > > > -- > Russell Senior > russ...@pdxlinux.org Probably. python2.7 isn't exactly broken or bad, just unmaintained. There are a lot of projects that just don't see a benefit from moving to python3. A lot of internet keyboard warriors like to act like you just need a project manager and some financial incentive to make the change, but no that's just not how it works. Even I've soured on python because of this. By the time I get used to the way things work, stuff changes and my code breaks. -Ben
[PLUG] github connection issue, part 2
Yesterday I resolved the missing github private ssh key; I'm able to push changes from my local web site repo to the github repo using ``git push origin'' and entering my github pass phrase. That's the first half of my problem resolved. The second half, which makes no sense to me or Paul Mullen who developed the site, is that I still cannot rebuild the site after making changes to the content. The Makefile which up until 2 weeks ago worked flawlessly now fails: $ make zero-to-prod [ -d /home/rshepard/development/web-site/aes-2023/public ] && rm -fr /home/rshepard/development/web-site/aes-2023/public Makefile:48: recipe for target 'clean' failed make: [clean] Error 1 (ignored) [ -d /home/rshepard/development/web-site/aes-2023/resources ] && rm -fr /home/rshepard/development/web-site/aes-2023/resources Makefile:48: recipe for target 'clean' failed make: [clean] Error 1 (ignored) hugo --cleanDestinationDir --printPathWarnings --environment="production" go: github.com/gethugothemes/hugo-modules/components/social-share@v0.0.0-20230301110236-bc8a937273bb: invalid version: git ls-remote -q origin in /tmp/hugo_cache/modules/filecache/modules/pkg/mod/cache/vcs/66708972a060647388d0b75f6bbe7a4ad931dc3341929b3802f0209266ad: exit status 128: fatal: unable to access 'https://github.com/gethugothemes/hugo-modules/': error setting certificate verify locations: CAfile: /usr/share/curl/ca-bundle.crt CApath: none hugo: collected modules in 623 ms Error: failed to download modules: failed to execute 'go [mod download]': failed to execute binary "go" with args [mod download]: go: github.com/gethugothemes/hugo-modules/components/social-share@v0.0.0-20230301110236-bc8a937273bb: invalid version: git ls-remote -q origin in /tmp/hugo_cache/modules/filecache/modules/pkg/mod/cache/vcs/66708972a060647388d0b75f6bbe7a4ad931dc3341929b3802f0209266ad: exit status 128: fatal: unable to access 'https://github.com/gethugothemes/hugo-modules/': error setting certificate verify locations: CAfile: /usr/share/curl/ca-bundle.crt CApath: none *errors.errorString Total in 624 ms Makefile:59: recipe for target 'html-prod' failed make: *** [html-prod] Error 255 There is a ``clean'' section in the Makefile and that's ignored. But, why hugo (the site framework) and go (Hugo's language) cannot connect to github is the problem. Is the problem with a Certificate Authority at github's end? Hugho's end? Go's end? It apparently isn't at my end. All help appreciated, Rich
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
On 7/31/23 23:15, Ben Koenig wrote: The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. The wikipedia entry says "a steamed or boiled bean pudding". I think what actually happened is that v1.x achieved a kind of stability and it basically didn't change for a decade and the people who knew how it worked kind of wandered away. It was only the abandonment of python2 that has led to the "crisis". There has been a slow moving effort to build a v2 of MoinMoin, but it's reportedly not ready for production, or wasn't when I looked last (again, about a year ago). -- Russell Senior russ...@pdxlinux.org
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
I wonder why WINE, FFMPEG, the Linux Kernel, all mainstream distros... - KDE - GNOME - XFCE - QT - GTK and many other projects DO NOT have this problem, despite all of them being infinitely more complex than a collection of python scripts. The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. FWIW... $5000 for a 2to3 conversion of moinmoin is a fucking insult to the developer who ends up doing all the work. But if Debian needs a modern system to run their moinmoin wiki I'd be happy to set them up with a Slackware 15.0 installation with python2.7. -Ben --- Original Message --- On Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find > > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a reasonable > > set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply > paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that > they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they would > have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft > wants them to pay for windows versions of things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to > Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build > Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a > functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted >
