Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward
-- Forwarded message -- From: techli...@phpcoderusa.com To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org Cc: Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 17:16:26 -0700 Subject: Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ... Your CIO example was not lost on me. I get it. I'm focusing on the market and how it effects my ability to make a living as a freelance developer. For me it is about demand/compensation, is the projected life cycle long enough to make it worth while making the necessary investment of time to become competent, and is it something I really would like to do. It is kind of like a personal hedgehog - 1) what are you passionate about? 2) what can you be the best at? 3) does it drive your economic engine? I would add two more 4) is the projected life cycle long enough to reasonably recoup one's investment to become competent? 5) is the barrier to entry low enough to make the transition worth while? I'm sure you can add a couple more. On 2014-08-04 16:59, David Schwartz wrote: Back in the 80’s, M$ was just another compiler vendor, one of several. And they weren’t even considered the best. It has been estimated that their software development tools division alone would rank as a Fortune 100 business entity. But they actually receive very little direct revenues because they get subsidized by other divisions. Today they exist mainly because they drove everybody else out of business. It’s hard to compete as a compiler vendor when M$ gives a company free dev tools if their CIO agrees to buy a huge bundle of database and OS technology. The fact that Delphi still exists is amazing in its own right. And it will be around for quite a while because the Veterans Administration has one of the largest installed bases of Delphi software in America, if not in the world, that’s still under active development — and it would be horribly expensive to replace with M$ technology (although some does exist). If the VA ever releases any mobile apps, there’s a very good chance they’ll be built with Delphi. Because of this relationship with the VA, Delphi has a rather unusual affinity with medical software developers. My earlier point seems to have been missed … if you’re a CIO on a tight budget and you REALLY want to SAVE MONEY, then it simply makes no sense to ignore AppMethod or RAD Studio today. You cannot talk about either Android or iOS development assuming there’s only one option any more. Android is _mainly_ Java, while iOS is _mainly_ Objective-C. But AppMethod/RAD Studio supports both, and now Swift supports iOS. Also don’t ignore the fact that we’re starting to see Android running on Intel architectures now, which is going to open them up to non-Java tool stacks as well. (Some of the latest low-end Acer tablets run KitKat on Intel CPUs.) Personally, I see the potential for much more heterogeneity in terms of development tools for both Android and iOS going forward than we’ve seen in Windows, if for no other reason than one company does NOT control both of them. M$ couldn’t persuade any major phone companies to use their OS, so they simply bought what was for a long time the market leader. I have no idea what they plan to do with Nokia, but M$ currently has less than 5% of the mobile platform market; perhaps Nokia can get them to 10%. Getting back to that CIO again, now he’s going to be faced hiring yet ANOTHER developer to work with ANOTHER dev stack for Nokia’s hardware. That’s now $300k for 3 people using “free” tools vs. $100k and a single $5k tool. Something’s gotta give. Free tools are simply NOT an economical model for companies that MUST have a presence on ALL MOBILE PLATFORMS! -David On Aug 4, 2014, at 3:58 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: It all makes sense to me. As for the individual, I still wonder what the Android market will look like 10 years from now. Since it is Google's baby I think Android has 30 years in it. Look at M$. It has taken them 30+ years to become less relevant. Maybe the cycle is speeding up maybe it is now 15 years. 15 years is good enough for me. The other side is enjoyment. I cannot see myself working on something I do not like.. Maybe Android development might not be fulfilling I won't know until I get a chance to swim in it, and that might be after the new year. On 2014-08-04 15:41, David Schwartz wrote: I understand your point, Keith, but even though Android uses Java, and Java IS considered “mainstream”, that does not seem to be translating into making it easy(er) to find Android mobile developers, is it? The ones out there ARE getting top-dollar, as well as iOS developers. C++ is also a mainstream language, and if you get RAD Studio, you get C++, Pascal (Delphi) and php/HTML5 in the same box, at least two of which ARE “mainstream”. There’s also their newest offering, AppMethod, which has a pricing structure more similar to other RAD
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
You can also try on xda. Questions I have are what is the source format? And what is the end goal. There are a number of eBook readers that seem to me to have much of this functionality already On Aug 3, 2014 5:26 PM, Kaoru Wilbur m.kaoru.wil...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Java, xml You can use C++ with NDK. Basic programming using the Android kit ADT. I use Eclipse but an Android Studio was released and some people use that... especially when they cannot install correct tools. If you ever wrote applets, it is very similar... One thing to remember if you do hire an Android developer and plan to put your app in Play is to get the key when the app is done. If you don't have that key... you cannot update that app that exists in Play Store! Marcia On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 4:35 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: Hi Paul, One would think that Andriod programming is going to be with us for year... decade at least. However that begs the question, what do you (or anyone else) think the long term demand will be? Increasing or decreasing? Is there any barriers to entry like a nasty learning curve? Specialized hardware? ETC... I think I looked at the SDK about a year ago and as I recall it looked to be Java based and then I think I was told of a C++ SDK. IIRC - I think it was something that looked to take a little effort to learn but not too bad. I think i recall something about using JavaScript.? Thanks! Keith On 2014-08-03 16:09, Paul Mooring wrote: Not to discourage you from trying to make this happen, but a bit of perspective might help. Currently android/java developers are in great demand, where I live the average salary is around $110,000/yr or roughly $2100/week. Having done a bit of contract/outsourcing work myself, I can tell you the experienced contractors/developers intended to lose as much as a weeks time on any project just trying to understand what needs to happen and working with the stake holders to make changes along the lines of one more simple thing. The take away is there's going to be a minimum price/complexity to justify taking on a project for a skilled/competent developer and if your app doesn't meet that benchmark you're going to have hard time finding a U.S. based competent developer interested in it. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea or you shouldn't do it, just keep in mind that while you may be really passionate about your idea to developers it's one of many offers to work on a contract for an individual offering below market rates. That's a great fit for contractors in India, students or a dev trying to expand her skill set (web dev still learning mobile apps, etc.) but not so appealing to established professionals. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:04 AM, j...@actionline.com wrote: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ... How can I find a skilled/competent/reasonably priced Android App Developer ... preferrably Arizona local or at least in the U.S.? I've tried elance.com [1] and odesk.com [2] and several similar sites, without success. Mostly get proposals from India and Pakistan, etc. I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 (perhaps more) to get the results we need for an app to read, scroll, flip pages, and search within a book. Should be relatively simple and straight-forward. Need to be able to add to the content and submit updates to the Google playstore myself. See my first-attempt (which does not yet work as well as we need it to) here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com. CompareBibleVersionsPackage [3] Please respond either here or off-line to joe(at)actionline.com [4] --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [5] -- Paul Mooring Operations Engineer Chef Links: -- [1] http://elance.com [2] http://odesk.com [3] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com. CompareBibleVersionsPackage [4] http://actionline.com [5] http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list -
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
I wanted to send this to the list, because I think you make some excellent points here. Also just for the record, I'm not necessarily saying I think do web apps for smart phones is better. I'm merely providing POV from someone working in the tech start-up space that that's what the industry is currently leaning towards. I actually prefer native apps myself. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 7:51 AM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: On 2014-08-03 19:14, Paul Mooring wrote: This is a probably a longer and more involved conversation than you think. There's a few primary factors in supply and demand for app developers: 1. Native vs HTML There's a huge difference in the available supply of developers and companies currently equipped to make an html5 site that plays nice with both ios and android. I think we're likely to see a proliferation of tools like phonegap (http://phonegap.com/ [6]) and a slow down of native apps as html apps eat that market share. When you consider currently ios requires objective-C and android Java, you have 2 languages with different tool chains and a more involved development and release process competing against a very well understood and super fast html/javascript ecosystem. In my opinion html/js will eat the mobile dev community as quickly and dominantly as it did for native Windows/OSX applications. This is akin to the argument for browser based applications 10 - 15 years ago. You build an app that runs in a browser and there is no deployment - just point your browser to the website. Building browser based apps that rival desktop apps is not easy. It is easier now that we have jQuery et al, however still not as easy as building desktop apps with Visual Basic (VB). It could take 10 - 20 times longer to build a really trick jQuery web app that rivals a VB app. Unless of course you build widgets that can be reused, then you spend a bunch of time the first go around and reuse those widgets. Still a lot of time building those widgets. I have not built any Android apps, however I suspect it might be faster to build them than HTML/(MySql/MariaDB)/CSS/JavaScript (jQuery). The down side is the different platforms. Which one do you go with and what is the market implications of doing so. Of course web apps require a server or at lease some cheap virtual hosting depending on the needs of the app. 2. Expanding platforms Currently ios and android own the market, but with microsoft, mozilla, ubuntu, etc. all getting into the mobile os game it's conceivable that the overall market could keep growing without making android/java skills a must have. This is down right ugly. 3. Better native app tooling Writing full featured web applications 10 years ago was really hard. Rails, Django, Laravel, etc. along with REST APIs and json revolutionized how we build web services making it a whole lot easier. Then much more recently jquery followed by a million javascript frameworks did the same for front ends. If native android development keeps growing similar tooling is sure to be built to drastically reduce the entrance barrier. It's still very time consuming and requires skills that come with a learning curve. We are still stuck in the 80's with C versus the 90's with Visual Basic. You build your own widgets and development time is through the roof. Building mobile web apps takes a considerable amount of skill and arguably two distinct or possibly three distinct skill sets - 1) Programmers, 2) Designers, and 3) JavaScript / jQuery developers. I assume building an Android app requires one skill set - Android programming skills - a much smaller set of skills. Overall I think it will become easier/cheaper/faster to build mobile apps, but I sort of doubt that will manifest itself in the form of most developers learning and rallying around Java and the Android API. Thank you for your thoughts. In a nutshell I think what you are saying is there is high demand presently, the market will fragment, the demand will level out, and we should consider web apps first. The thing we have not talk about is marketing. I think this is what is motivating Joe. If one builds browser base application and you want to market it how do you do so? SEO is the main way. As Google continues to refine their algorithm trying to get a website to rank is getting more difficult. The alternative is to spend lots of money on advertising. Both approaches require deep pockets. If Joe releases his Android app it might get some traction. And it might be easier to market in the traditional way. The down side is only part of the market can run the app. My motivation for asking the question was purely wanting to know if the high demand for Android developers will last. No one can know for sure. While you say the market will splinter, I think Android will be a strong contender. I do not see M$ as a real market player.
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
It always amazes me that these discussions inevitably devolve into arguments about the tools. When people discuss new features for cars, like switching to hybrid or electic technology, do they spend most of their time talking about battery chemistry or the electromagnetic properties of different materials? Or do they talk about the benefits mostly? Why is it that we in the software world are so freaking attached to the technology used to IMPLEMENT our ideas? Way back when Windows 3 was released, I was doing my own consulting work for clients. I focused on real-time embedded solutions written in C/C++ that ran on DOS or some kind of embedded kernal. People kept asking me why I didn’t get into Windows programming. My explanation was simple: because I had observed that every time Microsoft came out with a new version of Windows, they required developers to attend a week-long training course in Seattle to become “certified”. It cost several thousand dollars and happened every 9-12 months. That in itself wasn’t so bad. The problem I noticed was that I knew a TON of small developers who did this a few times and ended up going bankrupt because of the long ramp-up time it took to absorb all of this new technology. What I saw was they’d pop for the training and certification course, come back home, start busily working on apps, and right about the time they’d be ready to release something, MS would come out with the Next Great API version and they had to start all over again! In the embedded design world, people much preferred stability — we used stuff that was solid and proved and stable and used for several years. Customers didn’t like new APIs, or even new programming tools. I see the same thing happening in the mobile world, except the market has been transformed such that virtually anybody can participate. In the iOS world, Objective-C is like C, only with quirks. C programmers can pick it up without too much trouble. Newbies don’t have to overcome their earlier biases and probably pick it up faster. In the Android world, Java is an old and stable platform, But in both cases, the mobile APIs keep moving! Apple releases a fairly massive update annually, and Google is doing their best to keep up with new Android releases. So you’re barely able to get up to speed with the latest API before a new one comes along and renders a lot of your work obsolete. To make matters worse, if you want to support multiple platforms, you need to be fairly proficient in SEVERAL DIFFERENT LANGUAGES AND PLATFORMS. Then from the marketing angle, you’ve got people who say, “Oh, HTML5 web apps are really the future, we’re not going to waste our time with native apps!” That’s all well and good, except it misses the point with native apps, which is that they’re able to access all of the hardware goodies that Apple and Android manufacturers keep adding to. That is, web apps will FOREVER be behind the technology curve when it comes to supporting the wizbang functions inherint in most mobile devices. Sure, they’re fine for generic data-driven needs, but not for things that are generating sales at the front-edge of the technology curve leveraging the latest hardware features. Now we’ve got a new language: Apple introduced Swift and is making it available for free, like their other tools. This is going to stimulate a whole new generation of devleopers to jump into the fray and start building apps for iOS — apps that are going to be hard to “port” over to Android platforms, or even web platforms. I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is the fact that, IMHO, he’s over-spec’ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to impement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. His UI design makes assumptions based on HIS experience with *nix shell scripting, and he clearly explains this in the spec. There are no native widgets that work like “grep” in the Android world! So he’ll be extremely hard-pressed to find anybody who’ll build it for him within the budget he’s demanding. I’ve worked with something called Delphi since Borland introduced it in 1995. Starting with the XE2 release a few years back, they’ve been embracing a multi-platform targeting strategy where you can develop apps in one language that will run on any of the popular platforms: Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android. And it actually WORKS! You can’t even do that with JAVA!!! The supposed “write it once, run it anywhere!” platform. Again, I talked with Joe about his app, and there are no native widgets available in Delphi that implement the specific UI behaviors he’s looking for. I cannot build an app for him that fits his criteria as closely as he wants, but it’ll come close, AND it’ll run on all four major platforms. I’ve interviewed for a couple of mobile app jobs; I have a tough time getting
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
...sorry... meant it to go to the list, thanks!! To clarify you are seeing a trend towards browser based mobile apps? On 2014-08-04 09:48, Paul Mooring wrote: I wanted to send this to the list, because I think you make some excellent points here. Also just for the record, I'm not necessarily saying I think do web apps for smart phones is better. I'm merely providing POV from someone working in the tech start-up space that that's what the industry is currently leaning towards. I actually prefer native apps myself. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 7:51 AM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: On 2014-08-03 19:14, Paul Mooring wrote: This is a probably a longer and more involved conversation than you think. There's a few primary factors in supply and demand for app developers: 1. Native vs HTML There's a huge difference in the available supply of developers and companies currently equipped to make an html5 site that plays nice with both ios and android. I think we're likely to see a proliferation of tools like phonegap (http://phonegap.com/ [1] [6]) and a slow down of native apps as html apps eat that market share. When you consider currently ios requires objective-C and android Java, you have 2 languages with different tool chains and a more involved development and release process competing against a very well understood and super fast html/javascript ecosystem. In my opinion html/js will eat the mobile dev community as quickly and dominantly as it did for native Windows/OSX applications. This is akin to the argument for browser based applications 10 - 15 years ago. You build an app that runs in a browser and there is no deployment - just point your browser to the website. Building browser based apps that rival desktop apps is not easy. It is easier now that we have jQuery et al, however still not as easy as building desktop apps with Visual Basic (VB). It could take 10 - 20 times longer to build a really trick jQuery web app that rivals a VB app. Unless of course you build widgets that can be reused, then you spend a bunch of time the first go around and reuse those widgets. Still a lot of time building those widgets. I have not built any Android apps, however I suspect it might be faster to build them than HTML/(MySql/MariaDB)/CSS/JavaScript (jQuery). The down side is the different platforms. Which one do you go with and what is the market implications of doing so. Of course web apps require a server or at lease some cheap virtual hosting depending on the needs of the app. 2. Expanding platforms Currently ios and android own the market, but with microsoft, mozilla, ubuntu, etc. all getting into the mobile os game it's conceivable that the overall market could keep growing without making android/java skills a must have. This is down right ugly. 3. Better native app tooling Writing full featured web applications 10 years ago was really hard. Rails, Django, Laravel, etc. along with REST APIs and json revolutionized how we build web services making it a whole lot easier. Then much more recently jquery followed by a million javascript frameworks did the same for front ends. If native android development keeps growing similar tooling is sure to be built to drastically reduce the entrance barrier. It's still very time consuming and requires skills that come with a learning curve. We are still stuck in the 80's with C versus the 90's with Visual Basic. You build your own widgets and development time is through the roof. Building mobile web apps takes a considerable amount of skill and arguably two distinct or possibly three distinct skill sets - 1) Programmers, 2) Designers, and 3) JavaScript / jQuery developers. I assume building an Android app requires one skill set - Android programming skills - a much smaller set of skills. Overall I think it will become easier/cheaper/faster to build mobile apps, but I sort of doubt that will manifest itself in the form of most developers learning and rallying around Java and the Android API. Thank you for your thoughts. In a nutshell I think what you are saying is there is high demand presently, the market will fragment, the demand will level out, and we should consider web apps first. The thing we have not talk about is marketing. I think this is what is motivating Joe. If one builds browser base application and you want to market it how do you do so? SEO is the main way. As Google continues to refine their algorithm trying to get a website to rank is getting more difficult. The alternative is to spend lots of money on advertising. Both approaches require deep pockets. If Joe releases his Android app it might get some traction. And it might be easier to market in the traditional way. The down side is only part of the market can run the app. My motivation for asking the question was purely wanting to know if the high demand for Android developers will last. No one can know for sure. While you say the market will
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
On 2014-08-04 10:57, David Schwartz wrote: It always amazes me that these discussions inevitably devolve into arguments about the tools. When people discuss new features for cars, like switching to hybrid or electic technology, do they spend most of their time talking about battery chemistry or the electromagnetic properties of different materials? Or do they talk about the benefits mostly? If they are engineers they might. Look at the audience. My question was a technical question about the future of Android developer demand. Why is it that we in the software world are so freaking attached to the technology used to IMPLEMENT our ideas? Because we are the ones implementing those features. I'll bet car engineers have the same types of debates and talk much the same way we do. Way back when Windows 3 was released, I was doing my own consulting work for clients. I focused on real-time embedded solutions written in C/C++ that ran on DOS or some kind of embedded kernal. People kept asking me why I didn’t get into Windows programming. My explanation was simple: because I had observed that every time Microsoft came out with a new version of Windows, they required developers to attend a week-long training course in Seattle to become “certified”. It cost several thousand dollars and happened every 9-12 months. That in itself wasn’t so bad. The problem I noticed was that I knew a TON of small developers who did this a few times and ended up going bankrupt because of the long ramp-up time it took to absorb all of this new technology. What I saw was they’d pop for the training and certification course, come back home, start busily working on apps, and right about the time they’d be ready to release something, MS would come out with the Next Great API version and they had to start all over again! In the embedded design world, people much preferred stability — we used stuff that was solid and proved and stable and used for several years. Customers didn’t like new APIs, or even new programming tools. I see the same thing happening in the mobile world, except the market has been transformed such that virtually anybody can participate. In the iOS world, Objective-C is like C, only with quirks. C programmers can pick it up without too much trouble. Newbies don’t have to overcome their earlier biases and probably pick it up faster. In the Android world, Java is an old and stable platform, But in both cases, the mobile APIs keep moving! Apple releases a fairly massive update annually, and Google is doing their best to keep up with new Android releases. So you’re barely able to get up to speed with the latest API before a new one comes along and renders a lot of your work obsolete. To make matters worse, if you want to support multiple platforms, you need to be fairly proficient in SEVERAL DIFFERENT LANGUAGES AND PLATFORMS. Then from the marketing angle, you’ve got people who say, “Oh, HTML5 web apps are really the future, we’re not going to waste our time with native apps!” That’s all well and good, except it misses the point with native apps, which is that they’re able to access all of the hardware goodies that Apple and Android manufacturers keep adding to. Good Point!! That is, web apps will FOREVER be behind the technology curve when it comes to supporting the wizbang functions inherint in most mobile devices. Sure, they’re fine for generic data-driven needs, but not for things that are generating sales at the front-edge of the technology curve leveraging the latest hardware features. Web apps = run everywhere there is a browser. Native apps are restricted to their hardware O/S. Both have their merits. Now we’ve got a new language: Apple introduced Swift and is making it available for free, like their other tools. This is going to stimulate a whole new generation of devleopers to jump into the fray and start building apps for iOS — apps that are going to be hard to “port” over to Android platforms, or even web platforms. I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is the fact that, IMHO, he’s over-spec’ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to impement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. His UI design makes assumptions based on HIS experience with *nix shell scripting, and he clearly explains this in the spec. There are no native widgets that work like “grep” in the Android world! So he’ll be extremely hard-pressed to find anybody who’ll build it for him within the budget he’s demanding. I’ve worked with something called Delphi since Borland introduced it in 1995. Starting with the XE2 release a few years back, they’ve been embracing a multi-platform targeting strategy where you can develop apps in one language that will run on any of the popular platforms: Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android. And it actually WORKS! This is what we need - build once
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Delphi is just as easy to use as VB, if not easier. Have you looked at it lately? It’s just not considered “mainstream” any longer. People say, “Oh, is THAT still around?” Yup. Check it out. http://embarcadero.com They also have a tool they now call HTML5Builder or something along that line, which is an allusion to their C++ Builder app — a C++ version of Delphi. HTML5Builder is a PHP/HTML5 version. -David The Tool Wiz Schwartz On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:40 AM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: On 2014-08-04 10:57, David Schwartz wrote: Now we’ve got a new language: Apple introduced Swift and is making it available for free, like their other tools. This is going to stimulate a whole new generation of devleopers to jump into the fray and start building apps for iOS — apps that are going to be hard to “port” over to Android platforms, or even web platforms. I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is the fact that, IMHO, he’s over-spec’ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to impement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. His UI design makes assumptions based on HIS experience with *nix shell scripting, and he clearly explains this in the spec. There are no native widgets that work like “grep” in the Android world! So he’ll be extremely hard-pressed to find anybody who’ll build it for him within the budget he’s demanding. I’ve worked with something called Delphi since Borland introduced it in 1995. Starting with the XE2 release a few years back, they’ve been embracing a multi-platform targeting strategy where you can develop apps in one language that will run on any of the popular platforms: Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android. And it actually WORKS! This is what we need - build once run everywhere. I personally think web development is way behind in they types of tools we have. I often wonder why we do not have something like VB that is drag and drop. Instead we build everything every time. The web dev model is very expensive. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
I've looked at it several times. Each time the price goes up. $4,150 is a little pricey for me. On 2014-08-04 13:35, David Schwartz wrote: Delphi is just as easy to use as VB, if not easier. Have you looked at it lately? It’s just not considered “mainstream” any longer. People say, “Oh, is THAT still around?” Yup. Check it out. http://embarcadero.com They also have a tool they now call HTML5Builder or something along that line, which is an allusion to their C++ Builder app — a C++ version of Delphi. HTML5Builder is a PHP/HTML5 version. -David The Tool Wiz Schwartz On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:40 AM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: On 2014-08-04 10:57, David Schwartz wrote: Now we’ve got a new language: Apple introduced Swift and is making it available for free, like their other tools. This is going to stimulate a whole new generation of devleopers to jump into the fray and start building apps for iOS — apps that are going to be hard to “port” over to Android platforms, or even web platforms. I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is the fact that, IMHO, he’s over-spec’ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to impement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. His UI design makes assumptions based on HIS experience with *nix shell scripting, and he clearly explains this in the spec. There are no native widgets that work like “grep” in the Android world! So he’ll be extremely hard-pressed to find anybody who’ll build it for him within the budget he’s demanding. I’ve worked with something called Delphi since Borland introduced it in 1995. Starting with the XE2 release a few years back, they’ve been embracing a multi-platform targeting strategy where you can develop apps in one language that will run on any of the popular platforms: Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android. And it actually WORKS! This is what we need - build once run everywhere. I personally think web development is way behind in they types of tools we have. I often wonder why we do not have something like VB that is drag and drop. Instead we build everything every time. The web dev model is very expensive. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
I think you're mostly right but missing the larger point here. Mobile platforms aren't like their much more open desktop brethren. In the world of mobile you more or less get the tool chain provider by the vendor (Java, Objective-C or Swift) for native apps. While I expect professional developers could easily pick up those languages, mastering tools takes time and Joe was initially looking for someone more ready to jump in. To provide an analogy more apropos to this list, I make my living working on Linux and generally working in Ruby. Those are both just tools and given my background I wouldn't hesitate to tell a prospective employer I could pick up Solaris and Python if that's the stack they use. However, even with significant experience fully learning that stack would take time and make me a bad fit for contracting work. As far as Joe's project being over-specced in any case the spec is what it is. When I refered to the just one more thing problem before I meant the same thing I think you mean when you say it's overspec'ed, there's nothing wrong with wanting things a particular way and the best apps/projects really do sweat the details. The root of the problem is that non-devs *greatly* underestimate the time and effort involved in those details. The important thing is to remember that everything is really just a function of time and money, a project that's over-spec'd at $1000 and 1 day is under-spec'd at $100k and 6 months and unfortunately if you don't have any dev experience (or frequently if you do) your time estimates are probably at least an order of magnitude too low. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David Schwartz newslett...@thetoolwiz.com wrote: It always amazes me that these discussions inevitably devolve into arguments about the tools. When people discuss new features for cars, like switching to hybrid or electic technology, do they spend most of their time talking about battery chemistry or the electromagnetic properties of different materials? Or do they talk about the benefits mostly? Why is it that we in the software world are so freaking attached to the technology used to IMPLEMENT our ideas? Way back when Windows 3 was released, I was doing my own consulting work for clients. I focused on real-time embedded solutions written in C/C++ that ran on DOS or some kind of embedded kernal. People kept asking me why I didn’t get into Windows programming. My explanation was simple: because I had observed that every time Microsoft came out with a new version of Windows, they required developers to attend a week-long training course in Seattle to become “certified”. It cost several thousand dollars and happened every 9-12 months. That in itself wasn’t so bad. The problem I noticed was that I knew a TON of small developers who did this a few times and ended up going bankrupt because of the long ramp-up time it took to absorb all of this new technology. What I saw was they’d pop for the training and certification course, come back home, start busily working on apps, and right about the time they’d be ready to release something, MS would come out with the Next Great API version and they had to start all over again! In the embedded design world, people much preferred stability — we used stuff that was solid and proved and stable and used for several years. Customers didn’t like new APIs, or even new programming tools. I see the same thing happening in the mobile world, except the market has been transformed such that virtually anybody can participate. In the iOS world, Objective-C is like C, only with quirks. C programmers can pick it up without too much trouble. Newbies don’t have to overcome their earlier biases and probably pick it up faster. In the Android world, Java is an old and stable platform, But in both cases, the mobile APIs keep moving! Apple releases a fairly massive update annually, and Google is doing their best to keep up with new Android releases. So you’re barely able to get up to speed with the latest API before a new one comes along and renders a lot of your work obsolete. To make matters worse, if you want to support multiple platforms, you need to be fairly proficient in SEVERAL DIFFERENT LANGUAGES AND PLATFORMS. Then from the marketing angle, you’ve got people who say, “Oh, HTML5 web apps are really the future, we’re not going to waste our time with native apps!” That’s all well and good, except it misses the point with native apps, which is that they’re able to access all of the hardware goodies that Apple and Android manufacturers keep adding to. That is, web apps will FOREVER be behind the technology curve when it comes to supporting the wizbang functions inherint in most mobile devices. Sure, they’re fine for generic data-driven needs, but not for things that are generating sales at the front-edge of the technology curve leveraging the latest hardware features. Now we’ve got a new language:
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
In the 80's I began to develop using dBaseII, then dBaseIII... dBaseIII+, foxBase+, Clipper 87, Visual FoxPro. It was a great file server database system that was probably the best tool on the market for developing small company database applications. The problem is it was a niche skill set. dBase jobs were few and far between. I would still be working with FoxPro if M$ had not bought it and everyone bailed. FoxPro is now dead thanks to M$. That was the tool of choice for me and I would still be developing with it if it was up to me. Having had that experience I am leery of tying my wagon to something like Delphi. I really enjoyed Turbo Pascal in the early to mid 80's. I'm sure I would enjoy object oriented Turbo Pascal ie Delphi. I've heard tons of good things about Dephi going back maybe 10 or 12 years, maybe longer. Unfortunately Delphi is not main stream enough for me. I do not want to tie my wagon to another FoxPro. On 2014-08-04 13:35, David Schwartz wrote: Delphi is just as easy to use as VB, if not easier. Have you looked at it lately? It’s just not considered “mainstream” any longer. People say, “Oh, is THAT still around?” Yup. Check it out. http://embarcadero.com They also have a tool they now call HTML5Builder or something along that line, which is an allusion to their C++ Builder app — a C++ version of Delphi. HTML5Builder is a PHP/HTML5 version. -David The Tool Wiz Schwartz On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:40 AM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: On 2014-08-04 10:57, David Schwartz wrote: Now we’ve got a new language: Apple introduced Swift and is making it available for free, like their other tools. This is going to stimulate a whole new generation of devleopers to jump into the fray and start building apps for iOS — apps that are going to be hard to “port” over to Android platforms, or even web platforms. I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is the fact that, IMHO, he’s over-spec’ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to impement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. His UI design makes assumptions based on HIS experience with *nix shell scripting, and he clearly explains this in the spec. There are no native widgets that work like “grep” in the Android world! So he’ll be extremely hard-pressed to find anybody who’ll build it for him within the budget he’s demanding. I’ve worked with something called Delphi since Borland introduced it in 1995. Starting with the XE2 release a few years back, they’ve been embracing a multi-platform targeting strategy where you can develop apps in one language that will run on any of the popular platforms: Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android. And it actually WORKS! This is what we need - build once run everywhere. I personally think web development is way behind in they types of tools we have. I often wonder why we do not have something like VB that is drag and drop. Instead we build everything every time. The web dev model is very expensive. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Just to clarify ... David Schwartz and Paul Mooring last wrote, in part: David wrote: I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is that, IMHO, he’s over-spec'ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to implement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. Paul wrote: As far as Joe's project being over-spec'ed in any case the spec is what it is. When I referred to the just one more thing problem before, I meant the same thing I think you mean when you say it's overspec'ed. there's nothing wrong with wanting things a particular way and the best apps/projects really do sweat the details. The root of the problem is that non-devs *greatly* underestimate the time and effort involved in those details. Just to clarify my objective ... There is nothing in my exactingly detailed app specs that does not already exist in hundreds of FREE apps that currently appear in the Google Playstore. How likely is it that someone paid $100,000 or $10,000 or even just $2,000 to get one of those hundreds of FREE apps built in order to just give them away FREE? Therefore, it is difficult for me to understand why, when there is such a proliferation of apps currently doing the simple things that I am seeking to do, that it could be so difficult, so time-demanding, and so costly to replicate those simple FREE apps that already exist in such abundance? Friends ... I'm not trying to invent a new wheel, here. I'm just trying to get an app built that can read one single book, search for chapters to read, scroll-within chapters, flip-pages from chapter to chapter, and search for keywords within that one book ... all of which my current html-only websites are now doing. Surely it cannot be so difficult to accomplish the same thing with an Android app? BTW: It cost me only $200 bucks to get the current first-edition of this app built (by a novice) and launched with an opening screen that fills the screen perfectly in both portrait and rotated to landscape modes. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.CompareBibleVersionsPackage --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
I understand your point, Keith, but even though Android uses Java, and Java IS considered “mainstream”, that does not seem to be translating into making it easy(er) to find Android mobile developers, is it? The ones out there ARE getting top-dollar, as well as iOS developers. C++ is also a mainstream language, and if you get RAD Studio, you get C++, Pascal (Delphi) and php/HTML5 in the same box, at least two of which ARE “mainstream”. There’s also their newest offering, AppMethod, which has a pricing structure more similar to other RAD Mobile development tools. It’s basically RAD Studio without the Windows-specific stuff (ie., it’s mobile-centric rather than Windows-centric). Honestly, Embarcadero is taking a big gamble by investing in their cross-platform strategy the way they are. Any company seriously looking at developing the same app for both iOS and Android is stuck hiring two development teams with two different development tacks and two different sets of skill sets. Using RAD Studio or AppMethod, this can be narrowed down to one, eg., Delphi/Pascal or C++, for both platforms. At some point, a not-too-dense CIO is going to ask, “Why do we need two sets of developers at $100k PER PLATFORM that uses FREE tools when we can spend $5k and only have to pay $100k for ONE developer?” It would seem that “free tools” are costing an extra $95k to reach both platforms. Don’t you think $5k is a lot more affordable than $95k? (Ok, so if you’re REALLY CHEAP, it’s $50k rather than $100k, but … that’s STILL at least 10x the cost of a dual-platform development tool that ONE person can use!) -David On Aug 4, 2014, at 1:56 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: In the 80's I began to develop using dBaseII, then dBaseIII... dBaseIII+, foxBase+, Clipper 87, Visual FoxPro. It was a great file server database system that was probably the best tool on the market for developing small company database applications. The problem is it was a niche skill set. dBase jobs were few and far between. I would still be working with FoxPro if M$ had not bought it and everyone bailed. FoxPro is now dead thanks to M$. That was the tool of choice for me and I would still be developing with it if it was up to me. Having had that experience I am leery of tying my wagon to something like Delphi. I really enjoyed Turbo Pascal in the early to mid 80's. I'm sure I would enjoy object oriented Turbo Pascal ie Delphi. I've heard tons of good things about Dephi going back maybe 10 or 12 years, maybe longer. Unfortunately Delphi is not main stream enough for me. I do not want to tie my wagon to another FoxPro. On 2014-08-04 13:35, David Schwartz wrote: Delphi is just as easy to use as VB, if not easier. Have you looked at it lately? It’s just not considered “mainstream” any longer. People say, “Oh, is THAT still around?” Yup. Check it out. http://embarcadero.com They also have a tool they now call HTML5Builder or something along that line, which is an allusion to their C++ Builder app — a C++ version of Delphi. HTML5Builder is a PHP/HTML5 version. -David The Tool Wiz Schwartz On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:40 AM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: On 2014-08-04 10:57, David Schwartz wrote: Now we’ve got a new language: Apple introduced Swift and is making it available for free, like their other tools. This is going to stimulate a whole new generation of devleopers to jump into the fray and start building apps for iOS — apps that are going to be hard to “port” over to Android platforms, or even web platforms. I’ve talked with Joe about his app. To his credit, he’s focused mainly on the app. But what he’s missed is the fact that, IMHO, he’s over-spec’ed it to the point where you'd need so much custom code to impement what appears to be a simple tool that he’ll never be happy with the end result. His UI design makes assumptions based on HIS experience with *nix shell scripting, and he clearly explains this in the spec. There are no native widgets that work like “grep” in the Android world! So he’ll be extremely hard-pressed to find anybody who’ll build it for him within the budget he’s demanding. I’ve worked with something called Delphi since Borland introduced it in 1995. Starting with the XE2 release a few years back, they’ve been embracing a multi-platform targeting strategy where you can develop apps in one language that will run on any of the popular platforms: Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android. And it actually WORKS! This is what we need - build once run everywhere. I personally think web development is way behind in they types of tools we have. I often wonder why we do not have something like VB that is drag and drop. Instead we build everything every time. The web dev model is very expensive. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Back in the 80’s, M$ was just another compiler vendor, one of several. And they weren’t even considered the best. It has been estimated that their software development tools division alone would rank as a Fortune 100 business entity. But they actually receive very little direct revenues because they get subsidized by other divisions. Today they exist mainly because they drove everybody else out of business. It’s hard to compete as a compiler vendor when M$ gives a company free dev tools if their CIO agrees to buy a huge bundle of database and OS technology. The fact that Delphi still exists is amazing in its own right. And it will be around for quite a while because the Veterans Administration has one of the largest installed bases of Delphi software in America, if not in the world, that’s still under active development — and it would be horribly expensive to replace with M$ technology (although some does exist). If the VA ever releases any mobile apps, there’s a very good chance they’ll be built with Delphi. Because of this relationship with the VA, Delphi has a rather unusual affinity with medical software developers. My earlier point seems to have been missed … if you’re a CIO on a tight budget and you REALLY want to SAVE MONEY, then it simply makes no sense to ignore AppMethod or RAD Studio today. You cannot talk about either Android or iOS development assuming there’s only one option any more. Android is _mainly_ Java, while iOS is _mainly_ Objective-C. But AppMethod/RAD Studio supports both, and now Swift supports iOS. Also don’t ignore the fact that we’re starting to see Android running on Intel architectures now, which is going to open them up to non-Java tool stacks as well. (Some of the latest low-end Acer tablets run KitKat on Intel CPUs.) Personally, I see the potential for much more heterogeneity in terms of development tools for both Android and iOS going forward than we’ve seen in Windows, if for no other reason than one company does NOT control both of them. M$ couldn’t persuade any major phone companies to use their OS, so they simply bought what was for a long time the market leader. I have no idea what they plan to do with Nokia, but M$ currently has less than 5% of the mobile platform market; perhaps Nokia can get them to 10%. Getting back to that CIO again, now he’s going to be faced hiring yet ANOTHER developer to work with ANOTHER dev stack for Nokia’s hardware. That’s now $300k for 3 people using “free” tools vs. $100k and a single $5k tool. Something’s gotta give. Free tools are simply NOT an economical model for companies that MUST have a presence on ALL MOBILE PLATFORMS! -David On Aug 4, 2014, at 3:58 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: It all makes sense to me. As for the individual, I still wonder what the Android market will look like 10 years from now. Since it is Google's baby I think Android has 30 years in it. Look at M$. It has taken them 30+ years to become less relevant. Maybe the cycle is speeding up maybe it is now 15 years. 15 years is good enough for me. The other side is enjoyment. I cannot see myself working on something I do not like.. Maybe Android development might not be fulfilling I won't know until I get a chance to swim in it, and that might be after the new year. On 2014-08-04 15:41, David Schwartz wrote: I understand your point, Keith, but even though Android uses Java, and Java IS considered “mainstream”, that does not seem to be translating into making it easy(er) to find Android mobile developers, is it? The ones out there ARE getting top-dollar, as well as iOS developers. C++ is also a mainstream language, and if you get RAD Studio, you get C++, Pascal (Delphi) and php/HTML5 in the same box, at least two of which ARE “mainstream”. There’s also their newest offering, AppMethod, which has a pricing structure more similar to other RAD Mobile development tools. It’s basically RAD Studio without the Windows-specific stuff (ie., it’s mobile-centric rather than Windows-centric). Honestly, Embarcadero is taking a big gamble by investing in their cross-platform strategy the way they are. Any company seriously looking at developing the same app for both iOS and Android is stuck hiring two development teams with two different development tacks and two different sets of skill sets. Using RAD Studio or AppMethod, this can be narrowed down to one, eg., Delphi/Pascal or C++, for both platforms. At some point, a not-too-dense CIO is going to ask, “Why do we need two sets of developers at $100k PER PLATFORM that uses FREE tools when we can spend $5k and only have to pay $100k for ONE developer?” It would seem that “free tools” are costing an extra $95k to reach both platforms. Don’t you think $5k is a lot more affordable than $95k? (Ok, so if you’re REALLY CHEAP, it’s $50k rather than $100k, but … that’s STILL at least 10x the cost of a dual-platform
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Your CIO example was not lost on me. I get it. I'm focusing on the market and how it effects my ability to make a living as a freelance developer. For me it is about demand/compensation, is the projected life cycle long enough to make it worth while making the necessary investment of time to become competent, and is it something I really would like to do. It is kind of like a personal hedgehog - 1) what are you passionate about? 2) what can you be the best at? 3) does it drive your economic engine? I would add two more 4) is the projected life cycle long enough to reasonably recoup one's investment to become competent? 5) is the barrier to entry low enough to make the transition worth while? I'm sure you can add a couple more. On 2014-08-04 16:59, David Schwartz wrote: Back in the 80’s, M$ was just another compiler vendor, one of several. And they weren’t even considered the best. It has been estimated that their software development tools division alone would rank as a Fortune 100 business entity. But they actually receive very little direct revenues because they get subsidized by other divisions. Today they exist mainly because they drove everybody else out of business. It’s hard to compete as a compiler vendor when M$ gives a company free dev tools if their CIO agrees to buy a huge bundle of database and OS technology. The fact that Delphi still exists is amazing in its own right. And it will be around for quite a while because the Veterans Administration has one of the largest installed bases of Delphi software in America, if not in the world, that’s still under active development — and it would be horribly expensive to replace with M$ technology (although some does exist). If the VA ever releases any mobile apps, there’s a very good chance they’ll be built with Delphi. Because of this relationship with the VA, Delphi has a rather unusual affinity with medical software developers. My earlier point seems to have been missed … if you’re a CIO on a tight budget and you REALLY want to SAVE MONEY, then it simply makes no sense to ignore AppMethod or RAD Studio today. You cannot talk about either Android or iOS development assuming there’s only one option any more. Android is _mainly_ Java, while iOS is _mainly_ Objective-C. But AppMethod/RAD Studio supports both, and now Swift supports iOS. Also don’t ignore the fact that we’re starting to see Android running on Intel architectures now, which is going to open them up to non-Java tool stacks as well. (Some of the latest low-end Acer tablets run KitKat on Intel CPUs.) Personally, I see the potential for much more heterogeneity in terms of development tools for both Android and iOS going forward than we’ve seen in Windows, if for no other reason than one company does NOT control both of them. M$ couldn’t persuade any major phone companies to use their OS, so they simply bought what was for a long time the market leader. I have no idea what they plan to do with Nokia, but M$ currently has less than 5% of the mobile platform market; perhaps Nokia can get them to 10%. Getting back to that CIO again, now he’s going to be faced hiring yet ANOTHER developer to work with ANOTHER dev stack for Nokia’s hardware. That’s now $300k for 3 people using “free” tools vs. $100k and a single $5k tool. Something’s gotta give. Free tools are simply NOT an economical model for companies that MUST have a presence on ALL MOBILE PLATFORMS! -David On Aug 4, 2014, at 3:58 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: It all makes sense to me. As for the individual, I still wonder what the Android market will look like 10 years from now. Since it is Google's baby I think Android has 30 years in it. Look at M$. It has taken them 30+ years to become less relevant. Maybe the cycle is speeding up maybe it is now 15 years. 15 years is good enough for me. The other side is enjoyment. I cannot see myself working on something I do not like.. Maybe Android development might not be fulfilling I won't know until I get a chance to swim in it, and that might be after the new year. On 2014-08-04 15:41, David Schwartz wrote: I understand your point, Keith, but even though Android uses Java, and Java IS considered “mainstream”, that does not seem to be translating into making it easy(er) to find Android mobile developers, is it? The ones out there ARE getting top-dollar, as well as iOS developers. C++ is also a mainstream language, and if you get RAD Studio, you get C++, Pascal (Delphi) and php/HTML5 in the same box, at least two of which ARE “mainstream”. There’s also their newest offering, AppMethod, which has a pricing structure more similar to other RAD Mobile development tools. It’s basically RAD Studio without the Windows-specific stuff (ie., it’s mobile-centric rather than Windows-centric). Honestly, Embarcadero is taking a big gamble by investing in their cross-platform strategy the way they are. Any company seriously looking at
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Thanks for your insights, Paul. You last wrote, in part: ... Currently android/java developers are in great demand, where I live the average salary is around $110,000/yr or roughly $2100/week ... [but they need] a weeks time on any project just trying to understand what needs to happen ... [then must anticipate lots of one more simple thing changes While I do appreciate your perspective, the other side of the coin is that there are literally hundreds of thousands of excellent FREE apps in the Google Playstore that are hugely more complex than the extremely simple app that we need; and it must surely be obvious that nobody was paid $2,100 per week to create the vast majority of those FREE apps. Second, the thought that it would take any marginally competent developer a week (or even a half a day) to comprehend and get a grip on the simple app that we got completed to its current state for a total cost of $200. could only mean that such a candidate was actually incompetent. Third, with our project, there would be no need to have to deal with any one more simple thing changes because this project is completely spec'd out to final form in every tiny detail. ... a great fit for ... students or a dev trying to expand their skill set (web dev still learning mobile apps, etc.) This, of course, is a good idea that makes perfect sense and I am entirely open to this approach. That is how we got our initial edition completed for only $200. But the student who built this first edition has gone back to school, is working full time, and has a family so he just doesn't have time to continue with our project. Finally, for any competent developer, if s/he actually knew what s/he was doing and didn't have to re-invent the wheel, what is left to be done should not take more than a very few hours, surely less than a day. After all, we are not trying to invent a new wheel, here. We just need to implement technology that already exists in thousands of existing applications. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Hi Paul, One would think that Andriod programming is going to be with us for year... decade at least. However that begs the question, what do you (or anyone else) think the long term demand will be? Increasing or decreasing? Is there any barriers to entry like a nasty learning curve? Specialized hardware? ETC... I think I looked at the SDK about a year ago and as I recall it looked to be Java based and then I think I was told of a C++ SDK. IIRC - I think it was something that looked to take a little effort to learn but not too bad. I think i recall something about using JavaScript.? Thanks! Keith On 2014-08-03 16:09, Paul Mooring wrote: Not to discourage you from trying to make this happen, but a bit of perspective might help. Currently android/java developers are in great demand, where I live the average salary is around $110,000/yr or roughly $2100/week. Having done a bit of contract/outsourcing work myself, I can tell you the experienced contractors/developers intended to lose as much as a weeks time on any project just trying to understand what needs to happen and working with the stake holders to make changes along the lines of one more simple thing. The take away is there's going to be a minimum price/complexity to justify taking on a project for a skilled/competent developer and if your app doesn't meet that benchmark you're going to have hard time finding a U.S. based competent developer interested in it. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea or you shouldn't do it, just keep in mind that while you may be really passionate about your idea to developers it's one of many offers to work on a contract for an individual offering below market rates. That's a great fit for contractors in India, students or a dev trying to expand her skill set (web dev still learning mobile apps, etc.) but not so appealing to established professionals. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:04 AM, j...@actionline.com wrote: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ... How can I find a skilled/competent/reasonably priced Android App Developer ... preferrably Arizona local or at least in the U.S.? I've tried elance.com [1] and odesk.com [2] and several similar sites, without success. Mostly get proposals from India and Pakistan, etc. I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 (perhaps more) to get the results we need for an app to read, scroll, flip pages, and search within a book. Should be relatively simple and straight-forward. Need to be able to add to the content and submit updates to the Google playstore myself. See my first-attempt (which does not yet work as well as we need it to) here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.CompareBibleVersionsPackage [3] Please respond either here or off-line to joe(at)actionline.com [4] --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [5] -- Paul Mooring Operations Engineer Chef Links: -- [1] http://elance.com [2] http://odesk.com [3] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.CompareBibleVersionsPackage [4] http://actionline.com [5] http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
Yeah, but Paul with oDesk, it's a 1099 situation:) So, depending on the consultant, could be more! On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Paul Mooring p...@getchef.com wrote: Not to discourage you from trying to make this happen, but a bit of perspective might help. Currently android/java developers are in great demand, where I live the average salary is around $110,000/yr or roughly $2100/week. Having done a bit of contract/outsourcing work myself, I can tell you the experienced contractors/developers intended to lose as much as a weeks time on any project just trying to understand what needs to happen and working with the stake holders to make changes along the lines of one more simple thing. The take away is there's going to be a minimum price/complexity to justify taking on a project for a skilled/competent developer and if your app doesn't meet that benchmark you're going to have hard time finding a U.S. based competent developer interested in it. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea or you shouldn't do it, just keep in mind that while you may be really passionate about your idea to developers it's one of many offers to work on a contract for an individual offering below market rates. That's a great fit for contractors in India, students or a dev trying to expand her skill set (web dev still learning mobile apps, etc.) but not so appealing to established professionals. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:04 AM, j...@actionline.com wrote: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ... How can I find a skilled/competent/reasonably priced Android App Developer ... preferrably Arizona local or at least in the U.S.? I've tried elance.com and odesk.com and several similar sites, without success. Mostly get proposals from India and Pakistan, etc. I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 (perhaps more) to get the results we need for an app to read, scroll, flip pages, and search within a book. Should be relatively simple and straight-forward. Need to be able to add to the content and submit updates to the Google playstore myself. See my first-attempt (which does not yet work as well as we need it to) here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.CompareBibleVersionsPackage Please respond either here or off-line to joe(at)actionline.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Paul Mooring Operations Engineer Chef --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ...
This is a probably a longer and more involved conversation than you think. There's a few primary factors in supply and demand for app developers: 1. Native vs HTML There's a huge difference in the available supply of developers and companies currently equipped to make an html5 site that plays nice with both ios and android. I think we're likely to see a proliferation of tools like phonegap (http://phonegap.com/) and a slow down of native apps as html apps eat that market share. When you consider currently ios requires objective-C and android Java, you have 2 languages with different tool chains and a more involved development and release process competing against a very well understood and super fast html/javascript ecosystem. In my opinion html/js will eat the mobile dev community as quickly and dominantly as it did for native Windows/OSX applications. 2. Expanding platforms Currently ios and android own the market, but with microsoft, mozilla, ubuntu, etc. all getting into the mobile os game it's conceivable that the overall market could keep growing without making android/java skills a must have. 3. Better native app tooling Writing full featured web applications 10 years ago was really hard. Rails, Django, Laravel, etc. along with REST APIs and json revolutionized how we build web services making it a whole lot easier. Then much more recently jquery followed by a million javascript frameworks did the same for front ends. If native android development keeps growing similar tooling is sure to be built to drastically reduce the entrance barrier. Overall I think it will become easier/cheaper/faster to build mobile apps, but I sort of doubt that will manifest itself in the form of most developers learning and rallying around Java and the Android API. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 4:35 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote: Hi Paul, One would think that Andriod programming is going to be with us for year... decade at least. However that begs the question, what do you (or anyone else) think the long term demand will be? Increasing or decreasing? Is there any barriers to entry like a nasty learning curve? Specialized hardware? ETC... I think I looked at the SDK about a year ago and as I recall it looked to be Java based and then I think I was told of a C++ SDK. IIRC - I think it was something that looked to take a little effort to learn but not too bad. I think i recall something about using JavaScript.? Thanks! Keith On 2014-08-03 16:09, Paul Mooring wrote: Not to discourage you from trying to make this happen, but a bit of perspective might help. Currently android/java developers are in great demand, where I live the average salary is around $110,000/yr or roughly $2100/week. Having done a bit of contract/outsourcing work myself, I can tell you the experienced contractors/developers intended to lose as much as a weeks time on any project just trying to understand what needs to happen and working with the stake holders to make changes along the lines of one more simple thing. The take away is there's going to be a minimum price/complexity to justify taking on a project for a skilled/competent developer and if your app doesn't meet that benchmark you're going to have hard time finding a U.S. based competent developer interested in it. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea or you shouldn't do it, just keep in mind that while you may be really passionate about your idea to developers it's one of many offers to work on a contract for an individual offering below market rates. That's a great fit for contractors in India, students or a dev trying to expand her skill set (web dev still learning mobile apps, etc.) but not so appealing to established professionals. On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:04 AM, j...@actionline.com wrote: Wanted: Android App Developer $??? Reward ... How can I find a skilled/competent/reasonably priced Android App Developer ... preferrably Arizona local or at least in the U.S.? I've tried elance.com [1] and odesk.com [2] and several similar sites, without success. Mostly get proposals from India and Pakistan, etc. I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 (perhaps more) to get the results we need for an app to read, scroll, flip pages, and search within a book. Should be relatively simple and straight-forward. Need to be able to add to the content and submit updates to the Google playstore myself. See my first-attempt (which does not yet work as well as we need it to) here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com. CompareBibleVersionsPackage [3] Please respond either here or off-line to joe(at)actionline.com [4] --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [5] -- Paul Mooring Operations Engineer Chef Links:
