Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
As a lurker for sometime now I was in two minds about putting my vote in. Finally thought might as well. On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.comwrote: Dear Pluggies, We are all aware of the mailing list issues and various threads about the same. After going through them and considering list-members reactions, there were lot of discussions off-list with moderators and many others about the issues. Finally, the time has come to change things. This is the proposal for change from the current state of the list. Please do send your comments, suggestions. 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. +1 Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1. I agree with many other people that for initial n number of mails (where n could be a small number) it would help to keep a policy of all mails from newcomers are to be moderated. I am ready to help with such moderation if bandwidth is an issue. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. + 1 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) 0. I am not sure about my own thoughts for this point. 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. -1 I do not think we need to keep a specific rule of when moderation should happen. Constant light moderation activity would be required if newcomers are moderated for a short period. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. -1. I do not have a problem with anonymity of moderators but am unclear of the need. Personally I think it might even help if people know who the moderators are. However I will not make a case of it as I have honestly not been an active part of many forums and hence may not have faced stuff that people in this forum have. 5. It is the responsibility of the list members to maintain the list active, vibrant and useful. If they feel that some member or post (top posting to be allowed or not?) is not appropriate, they should propose action against it and that will also be passed through voting. +1 Very fair point. 6. Considering the above, it will be decided on the list itself if the list is to be declared moderated or un-moderated. 7. All these decisions will be posted on the PLUG website and will be updated according to the decisions on the list. RFC remains open till 31 Jan 2013, during which all the initial filters, moderation methods etc will be crystalised. After that, from Feb 1, 2013, the decisions will be implemented. I am missing the deadline by 5-10 mins but let us just assume UK time zone :) Please start different thread for suggesting/approving/voting for filters or other actions. Currently, all these postings will also undergo current filter rules and moderation. Moderators will ensure that there is minimal delay in responding to these mails. Please comment/suggest on these points and/or any other things if you have in mind. Thanks and regards, --Sudhanwa Jogalekar Thank you Sudhanwa as well as all the list members to have debated and discussed on this matter. As Sankarshan has pointed out in another mail the key concern which we should really look into is whether we can have a vibrant list (or maybe the more fundamental question of whether we want a vibrant list). However these discussions on moderation and filters is a step in the right direction for sure. Cheers, Brij ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
2013/1/23 Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.com: Dear Pluggies, We are all aware of the mailing list issues and various threads about the same. After going through them and considering list-members reactions, there were lot of discussions off-list with moderators and many others about the issues. Finally, the time has come to change things. Good to hear this proposed change. This is the proposal for change from the current state of the list. Please do send your comments, suggestions. 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. +1 Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. If we really don't want to moderate new users, there should be a good spam filter, otherwise we'll be flooded with spam like people earlier commented. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) I don't think this is a good idea. In my opinion, only spam needs to be prevented. If people don't want to see mails from certain persons (not spam bots), it is better they set their own personal filters. 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. Like someone earlier proposed, more moderators and best effort would be better I think. 5. It is the responsibility of the list members to maintain the list active, vibrant and useful. If they feel that some member or post (top posting to be allowed or not?) is not appropriate, they should propose action against it and that will also be passed through voting. Like proposed above, unless it is obvious spam, we should discuss it with the person posting and if they continues and no one supports that person then only he be moderated. Even if one other person thinks the mail is on topic, individual filters by offended members may be better than moderating. 6. Considering the above, it will be decided on the list itself if the list is to be declared moderated or un-moderated. 7. All these decisions will be posted on the PLUG website and will be updated according to the decisions on the list. Good. RFC remains open till 31 Jan 2013, during which all the initial filters, moderation methods etc will be crystalised. After that, from Feb 1, 2013, the decisions will be implemented. Please start different thread for suggesting/approving/voting for filters or other actions. Currently, all these postings will also undergo current filter rules and moderation. Moderators will ensure that there is minimal delay in responding to these mails. Please comment/suggest on these points and/or any other things if you have in mind. Thanks and regards, --Sudhanwa Jogalekar ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~! web: www.sudhanwa.com blog: www.sudhanwa.in Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List -- പ്രവീണ് അരിമ്പ്രത്തൊടിയില് You have to keep reminding your government that you don't get your rights from them; you give them permission to rule, only so long as they follow the rules: laws and constitution. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
On 23/01/13 11:21 AM, Mandar Vaze / मंदार वझे wrote: The reaction seems like You asked for it, you are getting it. Don't blame us for it. (it indicates spam) In a way, yes it seems to be like that. People were asking for freedom. they get it now. Freedom comes with responsibilities. (With great power comes great responsibility...). Lets see how people want to take them up. Specific comments follow : 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. -1 I'm assuming these users were put under moderation for a reason. Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1 Typically, new users are put under moderation till their first post is approved. This is general practice - helps prevent spam. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. I assume the new filters will be in place as soon as old filters are removed, and there won't be gap of days between the too. No filter mailing list mean LOTS of spam (Refer to my first comment) 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) -1 Is there cutoff time ? What if you get 14 votes soon enough and no 15th vote for 2 months ? Will you keep waiting indefinitely ? Waiting indefinitely makes sense. If there is any spam by the user, getting the 15th vote may not be time consuming. IMO. Members are free do discuss/decide the number. RFC is meant for the same. I think members trust moderators to make the right decision, especially when removing/deleting a user 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. This makes sense only if the list of open for all (including spammers) Which I don;t think any members want. I suggest there will be a pool of moderators, they approve/delete messages from the queue as and when possible. Within few weeks this should be settled. If there is spam, getting 15 (Number can be decided here itself) votes will be easy. This will increase involvement of everyone. At least more people will come forward to fight against spam and to keep the list clean. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. OK 6. Considering the above, it will be decided on the list itself if the list is to be declared moderated or un-moderated. This hardly matters (to the users) So you are suggesting that there should be no change to the list? Users trust current moderators, and this whole thread is irrelevant? -- शंतनू ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
On 23/01/13 12:13 PM, Darth Chatri wrote: On 23 January 2013 01:24, Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.com wrote: 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. +1 Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1. We should moderate the first couple of posts to prevent automated signups from spambots. Earlier, almost everyone seemed to be against moderation. Why the moderators should be given the task to keep track of members mail count. Can you (anyone) volunteer do it on the list itself? Over few weeks, spammers will be banned, considering required votes are there, filters will be updated. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. +1 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) Maybe this can be changed to 15 complaints to the admin against the user, instead of having a public voting process. Number can be finalized over here. RFC is meant for discussions. In the new system, it seems mods will not be decision makers. They are just executors. In the current system, they also decide things for the list as well execute decisions. In a free mailing list, they will just follow the instructions from the list. Let the members decide their own freedom. -- शंतनू ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:41 PM, शंतनू shanta...@gmail.com wrote: On 23/01/13 11:21 AM, Mandar Vaze / मंदार वझे wrote: The reaction seems like You asked for it, you are getting it. Don't blame us for it. (it indicates spam) In a way, yes it seems to be like that. People were asking for freedom. they get it now. Freedom comes with responsibilities. (With great power comes great responsibility...). Lets see how people want to take them up. snip 6. Considering the above, it will be decided on the list itself if the list is to be declared moderated or un-moderated. This hardly matters (to the users) So you are suggesting that there should be no change to the list? Users trust current moderators, and this whole thread is irrelevant? I have responded to shantanoo in person - He seemed to have misunderstood my email - so I have explained it to him. -Mandar ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
On Wed, 2013-01-23 at 12:48 +0530, Navin Kabra wrote: Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.com writes: Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1. This does not make sense. New users should have moderation flag set until the first post gets approved or 1st month or something like that. Otherwise this list will get buried in spam. +1 to all of Navin's inputs! Let's keep some moderation for new members,otherwise we'd be flooded with spam. I'd rather prefer low volume (but mostly useful posts) mailing list rather than having high volume list with low SNR ratio. rgds, ./Manish ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
On 27 January 2013 20:48, शंतनू shanta...@gmail.com wrote: Earlier, almost everyone seemed to be against moderation. Why the moderators should be given the task to keep track of members mail count. Can you (anyone) volunteer do it on the list itself? Isn't that something that mailman automates? If not, then it is not worth the effort. -aditya ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.com writes: Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1. This does not make sense. New users should have moderation flag set until the first post gets approved or 1st month or something like that. Otherwise this list will get buried in spam. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. +1 to this if it means that the Suspicious Headers flag will go away. 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) -1. This is unnecessarily democratic, and will just lead to overhead. Here is what I suggest: New members always moderated - without voting. New members un-moderated after first approved post - without voting. Moderating an existing list member - For obvious spam, based on moderator judgement. Identity and reason for ban to be posted on plug website. Change of other flags: discussion on list followed by voting. 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. Will not work. With new members being auto-moderated, moderators will have to work every day, but hopefully since they'll be un-moderated after first post, the total volume should go down. 5. It is the responsibility of the list members to maintain the list active, vibrant and useful. If they feel that some member or post (top posting to be allowed or not?) is not appropriate, they should propose action against it and that will also be passed through voting. +1 7. All these decisions will be posted on the PLUG website and will be updated according to the decisions on the list. +1 ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.com writes: Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1. This does not make sense. New users should have moderation flag set until the first post gets approved or 1st month or something like that. Otherwise this list will get buried in spam. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. +1 to this if it means that the Suspicious Headers flag will go away. 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) -1. This is unnecessarily democratic, and will just lead to overhead. Here is what I suggest: New members always moderated - without voting. New members un-moderated after first approved post - without voting. Moderating an existing list member - For obvious spam, based on moderator judgement. Identity and reason for ban to be posted on plug website. Change of other flags: discussion on list followed by voting. 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. Will not work. With new members being auto-moderated, moderators will have to work every day, but hopefully since they'll be un-moderated after first post, the total volume should go down. 5. It is the responsibility of the list members to maintain the list active, vibrant and useful. If they feel that some member or post (top posting to be allowed or not?) is not appropriate, they should propose action against it and that will also be passed through voting. +1 7. All these decisions will be posted on the PLUG website and will be updated according to the decisions on the list. +1 ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
[PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
Dear Pluggies, We are all aware of the mailing list issues and various threads about the same. After going through them and considering list-members reactions, there were lot of discussions off-list with moderators and many others about the issues. Finally, the time has come to change things. This is the proposal for change from the current state of the list. Please do send your comments, suggestions. 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. 5. It is the responsibility of the list members to maintain the list active, vibrant and useful. If they feel that some member or post (top posting to be allowed or not?) is not appropriate, they should propose action against it and that will also be passed through voting. 6. Considering the above, it will be decided on the list itself if the list is to be declared moderated or un-moderated. 7. All these decisions will be posted on the PLUG website and will be updated according to the decisions on the list. RFC remains open till 31 Jan 2013, during which all the initial filters, moderation methods etc will be crystalised. After that, from Feb 1, 2013, the decisions will be implemented. Please start different thread for suggesting/approving/voting for filters or other actions. Currently, all these postings will also undergo current filter rules and moderation. Moderators will ensure that there is minimal delay in responding to these mails. Please comment/suggest on these points and/or any other things if you have in mind. Thanks and regards, --Sudhanwa Jogalekar ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~! web: www.sudhanwa.com blog: www.sudhanwa.in Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
The reaction seems like You asked for it, you are getting it. Don't blame us for it. (it indicates spam) Specific comments follow : 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. -1 I'm assuming these users were put under moderation for a reason. Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1 Typically, new users are put under moderation till their first post is approved. This is general practice - helps prevent spam. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. I assume the new filters will be in place as soon as old filters are removed, and there won't be gap of days between the too. No filter mailing list mean LOTS of spam (Refer to my first comment) 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) -1 Is there cutoff time ? What if you get 14 votes soon enough and no 15th vote for 2 months ? Will you keep waiting indefinitely ? I think members trust moderators to make the right decision, especially when removing/deleting a user 4. There will be moderator/s but they will act only once in a week. This is considering that there will be hardly anything in moderation and there will be less filters applicable. This makes sense only if the list of open for all (including spammers) Which I don;t think any members want. I suggest there will be a pool of moderators, they approve/delete messages from the queue as and when possible. Moderators identities will not be disclosed. OK 6. Considering the above, it will be decided on the list itself if the list is to be declared moderated or un-moderated. This hardly matters (to the users) -Mandar ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Proposal for change from the current state of the list.
On 23 January 2013 01:24, Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.com wrote: 1. All the users moderation flag (that is currently set) to be removed. +1 Any new member joining the list will not get a moderation flag set. -1. We should moderate the first couple of posts to prevent automated signups from spambots. 2. All the current filters to be removed and started from scratch. Let us use the list of filters from Arun Khan's mail to start of the new filters list. +1 3. Any change (add/delete/modify) of filter and add/remove moderation flag for a list member and removing of any list member is to be done by voting. 15 votes in favour of the proposal required for approval. (eg. 20 votes in favour and 5 negative votes is OK) Maybe this can be changed to 15 complaints to the admin against the user, instead of having a public voting process. -d ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
