Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Nikhil Karkare nikhil.kark...@myshala.comwrote: An article sounds like a great idea. Can any of you write one in Marathi? We could try to get that published. Nikhil, You seem like the right person to write the article. You understand technology/linux and you understand the issues from the schools' side too. If you're to busy to write an article, I can help with arranging a phone interview after which a content writer will convert the phone call to an article. But I can only do English. Someone else will have to do the Marathi translation. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
Nikhil, You seem like the right person to write the article. You understand technology/linux and you understand the issues from the schools' side too. If you're to busy to write an article, I can help with arranging a phone interview after which a content writer will convert the phone call to an article. But I can only do English. Someone else will have to do the Marathi translation. I can write an article - no problem. But, in English :-) I will need some help with the Marathi translation. I shall put up pieces here in a few days. -Nikhil. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Nikhil Karkare nikhil.kark...@myshala.com wrote: Nikhil, You seem like the right person to write the article. You understand technology/linux and you understand the issues from the schools' side too. If you're to busy to write an article, I can help with arranging a phone interview after which a content writer will convert the phone call to an article. But I can only do English. Someone else will have to do the Marathi translation. I can write an article - no problem. But, in English :-) I will need some help with the Marathi translation. I shall put up pieces here in a few days. I had written some article on FreeDUC on PLUG website long time back. (http://plug.org.in/articles/freeduc.html) That was essentially mentioning GCompris and other packages capabilities. GCompris has come all the way from that point and some more packages are also currently available. Do write some nice articles. Some of us (including myself) will help to translate/localise it in Marathi. btw, Anand Kulkarni has done excellent job of localising GCompris in Marathi. It is available with audio/video completely in Marathi. Best regards - Sudhanwa ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 09:47:31AM +0530, Nikhil Karkare wrote: Makes sense. I don't have the time or the resources for an ugly fight. I would rather talk to other schools and educate them. Let me see if I can get school heads together for a little FOSS talk. I am sure many of you could volunteer to talk in it. That sounds great. Plus there are forums like GNUnify (of course where the audience will be different, though can help spread the word.) FOSS in high school education is big enough a topic. BTW just searching this term in Google gives an idea. An article sounds like a great idea. Can any of you write one in Marathi? We could try to get that published. The timing for such an article would be the end of May, where schools are just about to start, and people are reading about it in the papers. What kind of help are you looking for to make it in Marathi? Also, I'd say it should be done in both English and Marathi. Mayuresh. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
What kind of help are you looking for to make it in Marathi? Can someone comfortable in writing techie stuff in Marathi write an article? We could then look at people who could publish it. Also, I'd say it should be done in both English and Marathi. Yes, both English and Marathi. Writing in English is easy though :-) -Nikhil. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 07:10:20PM +0530, Nikhil Karkare wrote: What kind of help are you looking for to make it in Marathi? Can someone comfortable in writing techie stuff in Marathi write an article? We could then look at people who could publish it. Looks challenging, though I can assist to the extent I can. Not that I am `comfortable', i.e. I haven't written technical material in Marathi before, though I'd like to give it the best try. Mayuresh. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
Right, as long is it is _talking_. Also fine to write and publicize any malpractices seen, so that others don't fall for it. But, put vendor names somewhere and you are in for an ugly fight. Well, do that, too, if you have enough time and resources. Makes sense. I don't have the time or the resources for an ugly fight. I would rather talk to other schools and educate them. Let me see if I can get school heads together for a little FOSS talk. I am sure many of you could volunteer to talk in it. An article sounds like a great idea. Can any of you write one in Marathi? We could try to get that published. The timing for such an article would be the end of May, where schools are just about to start, and people are reading about it in the papers. -Nikhil. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Mayuresh mayur...@acm.org wrote: Many schools and institutes do not even know how much they stand to save by adopting FOSS. With fee hikes becoming a regular issue, an eye opener is needed for school runners. When it comes to institutions I'd hesitate to put forth 'cost savings' as the only value derived by moving to a FOSS stack. In real life, it is somewhat easy for any vendor to juggle around prices via discounts and render 'free' quite irrelevant as a value. Institutes and more importantly, the faculty and the folks within the institutes adopting FOSS should make it a point to discuss the culture of collaboration and learning via looking that is enabled by a FOSS stack. And, that the culture of collaboration is not limited to software but should be visible across other parts and activities of the institute - magazines, coding and similar contests, technical workshops and so forth. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog/ ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 11:52:49AM +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Mayuresh mayur...@acm.org wrote: Many schools and institutes do not even know how much they stand to save by adopting FOSS. With fee hikes becoming a regular issue, an eye opener is needed for school runners. When it comes to institutions I'd hesitate to put forth 'cost savings' as the only value derived by moving to a FOSS stack. In real life, it Certainly. Cost is one of the many factors. But it is often easier to get across with the kind of people you usually have to deal with in such matters. All other aspects should be brought out as well. I'd pick security, pace it which the FOSS software grows, community support (and vendor support, too, if one prefers), overall efficiency and longevity of IT setups based on FOSS as other factors. I'd just refrain from or put in last place, the philosophical part, even though that could be first somewhere in my mind. For someone running a business above arguments will make more sense than the philosophical ones. Overall, for the thread topic, I'd suggest an article cold be written about how FOSS was effectively used in a school, as a case study, bringing out all its benefits etc. Newspapers is one forum I can think of to publish such an article. There could be others where various stakeholders in schools - parents, institute runners would get to know about it. (Personally, I don't know a particular forum though one can talk around, for example, with acquaintances associated with schools etc. to look for suitable forum.) Any unethical practices if at all any vendor is adopting can be countered by educating your co-buyers rather than spending energy on fighting with such vendors - particularly if you do not have the resources to take on such fights. Mayuresh. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Amarendra Godbole amarendra.godb...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Nikhil Karkare nkark...@gmail.com wrote: No. I did not buy the product. I already have the biggest Linux deployment amongst schools, with GCompris installed. I don't think talking will help much, but worth a try. Should I make a list of companies who do this? Maybe make a blacklist which is publicly available? [...] . shout from the rooftop about how evil these companies are. All those people who are encouraging you on the list will run away at the drop of a hat, if it comes to the court of law. IMHO, best option to use and adopt Linux, is appreciate the goodies it provides, and use them while keeping the legalities to the foss-legal-eagles. I agree to an some extent about your point i.e. having the financial purse and time bandwidth for legal recourse. IMO, the FOSS legal eagles would not be aware of incidents such as the OP posted unless the community brings it to their notice. Thus, I feel that if you come across abuse of the lic., then it should be brought to the attention of organizations like FSF. They have the legal and financial wherewithal to determine if the case deserves merit and pursue it. And you asking about freedom? Well, you have to look at the BSD license then. This would be applicable to the content/software developed by the OP. In this particular case, he is using software authored by others and is bound by the original lic. They may not be BSD. My two cents. -- Arun Khan A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Amarendra Godbole amarendra.godb...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Nikhil Karkare nkark...@gmail.com wrote: No. I did not buy the product. I already have the biggest Linux deployment amongst schools, with GCompris installed. I don't think talking will help much, but worth a try. Should I make a list of companies who do this? Maybe make a blacklist which is publicly available? [...] lets not get into the blacklist etc mode its confrontational , i would take a much milder approcah as in lets have all the people with these kind of products which they have bought or someone in there circle has bought , we can educate the companies rather than confront, i think this approcah should work most of the time . yes we can start listing companies name and products which you think are not in complicance. Your approach suggests you to be under 30, with a lot of real-world inexperience. If you have a large amount of money in your account, and are capable of facing legal music, you can make a public list, and shout from the rooftop about how evil these companies are. All those people who are encouraging you on the list will run away at the drop of a hat, if it comes to the court of law. lets not get personal and get to the op's point here , how can you predict about others? IMHO, best option to use and adopt Linux, is appreciate the goodies it provides, and use them while keeping the legalities to the foss-legal-eagles. And you asking about freedom? Well, you have to look at the BSD license then. My personal, skewed, but real-world opinion. i agree to your not so skewed opinion , if we are not brigining to legals notice then who can ? yes we may have some false positives but in the process we will set a precident for others to follow as to how to approach these kind of issues . imho i think it is an important enough as part of community somebody has to raise the voice to begin the process . -Satya ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
important factor) in forums where various schools get to know about it could be a positive way to promote FOSS (and also as a side effect counter malpractices by a few vendors if any). It is hard to prove a thing _legally_ wrong when you find it _morally_ wrong. Better combat such things by spreading the positives in the community rather than spending energy on taking the negatives head on. I second that. Sharing the benefits you derived (including cost as an i do not see any negativity in talking about compliance to the parties involved , this i think will also bring in more sensitivity and awareness . -Satya ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 10:42:26PM +0530, satyaakam goswami wrote: i do not see any negativity in talking about compliance to the parties involved , this i think will also bring in more sensitivity and awareness . Right, as long is it is _talking_. Also fine to write and publicize any malpractices seen, so that others don't fall for it. But, put vendor names somewhere and you are in for an ugly fight. Well, do that, too, if you have enough time and resources. Mayuresh. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
No. I did not buy the product. I already have the biggest Linux deployment amongst schools, with GCompris installed. I don't think talking will help much, but worth a try. Should I make a list of companies who do this? Maybe make a blacklist which is publicly available? On May 4, 2011 6:22 AM, satyaakam goswami satyaa...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Nikhil Karkare nkark...@gmail.com wrote: No. I did not buy the product. I already have the biggest Linux deployment amongst schools, with GCompris installed. I don't think talking will help much, but worth a try. Should I make a list of companies who do this? Maybe make a blacklist which is publicly available? [...] Your approach suggests you to be under 30, with a lot of real-world inexperience. If you have a large amount of money in your account, and are capable of facing legal music, you can make a public list, and shout from the rooftop about how evil these companies are. All those people who are encouraging you on the list will run away at the drop of a hat, if it comes to the court of law. IMHO, best option to use and adopt Linux, is appreciate the goodies it provides, and use them while keeping the legalities to the foss-legal-eagles. And you asking about freedom? Well, you have to look at the BSD license then. My personal, skewed, but real-world opinion. -Amarendra ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 09:17:57AM +0530, Amarendra Godbole wrote: On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Nikhil Karkare nkark...@gmail.com wrote: No. I did not buy the product. I already have the biggest Linux deployment amongst schools, with GCompris installed. I don't think talking will help much, but worth a try. Should I make a list of companies who do this? Maybe make a blacklist which is publicly available? [...] IMHO, best option to use and adopt Linux, is appreciate the goodies it provides, and use them while keeping the legalities to the foss-legal-eagles. And you asking about freedom? Well, you have to look at the BSD license then. I second that. Sharing the benefits you derived (including cost as an important factor) in forums where various schools get to know about it could be a positive way to promote FOSS (and also as a side effect counter malpractices by a few vendors if any). It is hard to prove a thing _legally_ wrong when you find it _morally_ wrong. Better combat such things by spreading the positives in the community rather than spending energy on taking the negatives head on. Many schools and institutes do not even know how much they stand to save by adopting FOSS. With fee hikes becoming a regular issue, an eye opener is needed for school runners. Mayuresh. ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
Sankarshan, By mention, I mean both, in writing, as well as in their pitch. Only upon telling them that I already have their software, they claim that they don't know much about the OS and Open Source and all that, and will get back to me. Of course, they don't. I am not talking about even customization of FOSS. They sell software just out of the box. Regards, Nikhil. -- Nikhil Karkare Co-Ordinator Millennium National School http://www.myeshala.in http://www.myshala.com -- On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sankarshan.mukhopadh...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Nikhil Karkare nikhil.kark...@myshala.com wrote: I am part of a school, and keep meeting people who want to sell me software. Here is a situation that I come across regularly. I find people selling products based on Linux. I see them writing a few lines of code, customizing Gnome or KDE a bit, and using the rest for free from the Linux world. By apps I mean GCompris. These guys use gcompris apps, and don't mention anywhere that the apps are from GCompris. Plus, they don't even mention that they use Linux as an operating system! They say that they have no problems of viruses, no problem in virtualization. Is it some groundbreaking OS that has been written from scratch? I don't think so. Why don't they mention that they run Linux and use open source apps? Aren't they liable to do that? By 'mention' do you indicate that they don't provide such things in-writing or, is it that it goes unmentioned during their pitch ? More than liability, I feel sad that since most schools don't know about Linux and GCompris, they are sold out on this. Linux and GCompris don't get the recognition that they deserve. The problem begins to arise when the custom development for the applications are based on existing FOSS bits but access to source code is not provided as a matter of entitlement. And then of course we have that 'open core' thing :) http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/03/05/open-core-slur.html -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog/ ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Nikhil Karkare nikhil.kark...@myshala.com wrote: Sankarshan, By mention, I mean both, in writing, as well as in their pitch. Only upon telling them that I already have their software, they claim that they don't know much about the OS and Open Source and all that, and will get back to me. Of course, they don't. I am not talking about even customization of FOSS. They sell software just out of the box. Please avoid top posting and trim your quotes. People interested in any topic can follow the discussion as the messages are threaded. PLUG has it's own guidelines plus you can refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style. As for selling FOSS software, I believe the licenses allow you to sell it for a reasonable price. Back in the days of dial up Internet, I used buy copies of distros from www.CheapBytes.com. There are other similar companies all over the world. IANAL -- In general, on the customization aspect, they should respect the lic. of the original author. They should disclose the source (just as all the distros do) and give the source to their customization if the original lic. requires them to do so. Otherwise they are in violation and open to litigation/prosecution. As you may be aware a lot of the embedded devices (Linux based) use busybox in their firmware. FSF has filed suits against big MNCs who have not abided by the busybox lic. terms and won the cases. Something similar may be appropriate in case you have evidence to back up your statements. /IANAL -- Arun Khan ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Nikhil Karkare nikhil.kark...@myshala.com wrote: Hi, I am part of a school, and keep meeting people who want to sell me software. Here is a situation that I come across regularly. I find people selling products based on Linux. I see them writing a few lines of code, customizing Gnome or KDE a bit, and using the rest for free from the Linux world. By apps I mean GCompris. These guys use gcompris apps, and don't mention anywhere that the apps are from GCompris. Plus, they don't even mention that they use Linux as an operating system! They say that they have no problems of viruses, no problem in virtualization. Is it some groundbreaking OS that has been written from scratch? I don't think so. Why don't they mention that they run Linux and use open source apps? Aren't they liable to do that? More than liability, I feel sad that since most schools don't know about Linux and GCompris, they are sold out on this. Linux and GCompris don't get the recognition that they deserve. Whenever the sales people talk to you, ask them for the license document. Whether the product is proprietary or FOSS. And ask for source code if they say it is FOSS. It is part of their awareness too. There is nothing wrong in doing business of FOSS products. But, it should be done respecting the licensing of the product/project. And feel free to put up names of such companies who use FOSS in a wrong way. Let people understand who are into bad business practices. -Sudhanwa ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Nikhil Karkare nikhil.kark...@myshala.com wrote: I am part of a school, and keep meeting people who want to sell me software. Here is a situation that I come across regularly. I find people selling products based on Linux. I see them writing a few lines of code, customizing Gnome or KDE a bit, and using the rest for free from the Linux world. By apps I mean GCompris. These guys use gcompris apps, and don't mention anywhere that the apps are from GCompris. Plus, they don't even mention that they use Linux as an operating system! They say that they have no problems of viruses, no problem in virtualization. Is it some groundbreaking OS that has been written from scratch? I don't think so. Why don't they mention that they run Linux and use open source apps? Aren't they liable to do that? By 'mention' do you indicate that they don't provide such things in-writing or, is it that it goes unmentioned during their pitch ? More than liability, I feel sad that since most schools don't know about Linux and GCompris, they are sold out on this. Linux and GCompris don't get the recognition that they deserve. The problem begins to arise when the custom development for the applications are based on existing FOSS bits but access to source code is not provided as a matter of entitlement. And then of course we have that 'open core' thing :) http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/03/05/open-core-slur.html -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog/ ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
Re: [PLUG] Question about companies and open source applications
More than liability, I feel sad that since most schools don't know about Linux and GCompris, they are sold out on this. Linux and GCompris don't get the recognition that they deserve. Please let me know your thoughts on this. did you buy the product ? if not then also you can educate there management about the fallouts and the bad name in the long run . more details appreciated for further course of action. -Satya fossevents.in ___ Pune GNU/Linux Users Group Mailing List
