Re: He is American
Here’s something new. Next month Obama plans to visit Indonesia. He wouldn’t do that if he had ever been a citizen of indonesia because that could lead to quite a few complications, such as maybe he could be drafted or have to pay back taxes, or in the coverage of his visit some newspaper or correspondent might report that he was once a citizen of Indonesia.(And such authorities as the State Department and the Secret Service would naturally advice him not to take the trip IF he had been a citizen.) But, as the Indonesia government says, he was never a citizen of Indonesia, so he doesn’t have to worry about any complications. I will bet you now that before, during and after his visit to Indonesia there will not be any news from a reliable news agency or newspaper—USA, British, French or Indonesia—saying that he was once a citizen of Indonesia. Why not? Because (1) there is no proof that he ever had Indonesia citizenship, only a document showing that his parents claimed he had Indonesian citizenship; (2) the Indonesian government says that he was never a citizen of Indonesia. When Indonesia says that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia that is the ultimate authority. There is no way to prove that Obama was a citizen of Indonesia if the Indonesia government says that he was not a citizen of Indonesia. If a jury saw Obama’s parents’ Indonesian school application (which by the way says that he was born in Honolulu) and then heard sworn testimony from the Indonesian ambassador that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia, they would believe the ambassador and conclude that the document lied. Do people lie when they want their children to attend a particular school? Sure. Now, as to the visa. I am referring to a US visa. In the 1970s and 1980s and even today, someone who was not a US citizen needs a US visa to travel to the USA, except for particular countries where visas are waved, and Kenya (or the Kenyan colony of Britian) was NOT one of them. Nor was Indonesia. Let’s start with leaving the USA to go to Indonesia. IF Obama were NOT a US citizen, he could not travel on his mothers’ passport. He could only be entered on his mothers’ passport if she showed proof that he was a US citizen and that she was the mother. How do I know? I remember my parents having to find my birth certificate when I was entered on my mother’s passport. Moreover, if the US government did not require proof of citizenship and proof that she is the mother, then anyone could go abroad and bring back anyone and claim that it is her kid. Or, someone could leave the USA with a kid who is not hers. So with two proofs: (1) memory and (2) it would be illogical not to require proof, Obama’s parents had to prove that he was a citizen before he could leave Hawaii for Indonesia, and they did. If he returned with his mother, he could have returned on that passport, but the point is that they had to prove that he was a US citizen. How did they prove that he was a US citizen? They showed something, perhaps only a COLB, but more likely at the time it was the original birth certificate. Either way, the US government accepted that he was a US citizen in order to either give him a passport or enter him on his mother’s passport. Now, let us imagine that he was born in Kenya. For him to get to the USA, he would have had to either get a Kenyan/British passport, or be entered on his father’s Kenyan/British passport AND get a visa from the USA. Why a visa? Because we required a visa from every non-citizen at the time, and under this possiblity he was not a citizen. Or, if the US authorities in Kenya concluded that he was a US citizen (unlikely, but possible), then he would have either had to get a passport or be entered on his mother’s US passport. Either way, there would be records in the files in the USA embassy in Kenya. The same with a visa; there would have to be records in Kenya or in the State Department in Washington. Passport files are private, but requests for a visa are not private, nor is the cable traffic between the US consultate in Kenya and the State Department in Washington. If Obama had been born in Kenya, there would have been plenty of cable traffic asking whether he was a US citizen because of his mother or not a citizen at all. Or, if he was not a US citizen, then should we grant this child a visa? This would have been found long before now. But even if it wasn’t found, the fact would have been that Obama’s parents had filed all kinds of proof with the US government that Obama had been born in Kenya. And, if those documents were on file, and people actually saw the child being taken from Kenya on a plane, then it would have taken a lot of guts and gall to come back to Hawaii and claim that the child was born in Hawaii. I have shown earlier, quoting from Lori (but you do not believe her. In fact, she wrote all this on a Web site long before the election, and while Hillary was still running, and Lori was a supporter of Hilla
Re: He is American
Re: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ypc.or.id%2F... http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ypc.or.id%2F... http://www.ypc.or.id/ Also, check out this Wiki article regarding private, corporate/ American schools: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cendana_School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta_International_School The automatic translation of the first documents did not work. Please provide. There is, of course, International schools in Indonesia as there are in every country. The International School teaches in English. The Cendana School teaches in Indonesian. but it is a private school and hence charges money. People who want their kids to attend a private school generally do so because they think it will give better education, not necessarily because the public schools will not accept foreigners. The site does not say that this school exists because Indonesian schools do not or did not accept foreigners (Though the site implies that public schools did not accept foreigners before 1959). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
This is the version of the Indonesian constitution that I used: http://www.indonesia-ottawa.org/page.php?s=1000constitution This (1) Every person shall have the right to develop him/herself through the fulfilment of his/her basic needs, the right to get education and to benefit from science and technology, arts and culture, for the purpose of improving the quality of his/her life and for the welfare of the human race. is in the most recent amendment to the Constitution. Note PERSON. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Fixing Typos: Re: “Oh but it does. Constututions are documents of legal inclusion, they list all that is allowed unless interpreted by judicial authority to include more or differently. There are no documents or rulings in Indonesia that includes anyone except Indonesians in its protections. This is a departure from the US system (but in accordance with the vast majority of countries) that gives these constitutional rights to anyone on its soil. Other laws are those of exclusion.” Baloney! I have just called the Indonesian Embassy in Washington, and the press officer there told me that he attended public schools in Jakarata and that he had many foreign friends attending public school with him. That was in the 1970 and 1980s, about the time when Obama was in public schools in Jakarta. The press officer said that as far as he knew, even earlier there were no restrictions on foreigners attending public schools. "Public schools are for everyone, so long as they can speak Indonesian," he said. Re: "There are no documents or rulings in Indonesia that includes anyone except Indonesians in its protections. This is a departure from the US system (but in accordance with the vast majority of countries) that gives these constitutional rights to anyone on its soil. Other laws are those of exclusion.” All this is interpretation and speculation, done by an American who is not an expert in Indonesian Law. If you really want to speak to an expert in Indonesian Law, there is one at the Indonesian Embassy, his name is Mr Razal, and he can be reached on 202-775-5329. Here are the facts: (1) Foreigners can attend Indonesian public schools, and they do. (2) Obama never was an Indonesian citizen and never had an Indonesian passport. (3) Obama did not need an Indonesian passport in order to travel to Pakistan. Pakistan granted US citizens visas at the airports; (4) In order to get from Hawaii to Indonesia, Obama had to either get a US passport of his own, or travel on his mother's passport. In either case, the US government (the State Department) would have required proof that he was a US citizen, which of course would have been his Hawaii birth certificate. I do not know whether that was a COLB or the original birth certificate, but it was accepted as proof that he was born in Hawaii. Now, as to the Indonesian Constitution. It says: "Every citizen has the right to receive education." That does not mean that foreigners in Indonesia CANNOT receive education. If they do not receive education, that's too bad. They do not have a right to education, like citizens, but there's nothing saying that they should be excluded either, and as the Indonesian Embassy says, they are not and were not excluded. So, whomever told you that you had to be an Indonesian citizen to go to school in Indonesia is wrong. And there is this: From the Indonesian Constitution. Article 28C "(1) Every person shall have the right to develop him/herself through the fulfilment of his/her basic needs, the right to get education and to benefit from science and technology, arts and culture, for the purpose of improving the quality of his/her life and for the welfare of the human race. ' Notice every PERSON has the right. I don't think that this means that every foreign person has the right to go to school, but it does NOT mean that they are forbidden to attend public school either. And, as the Embassy says, they are not excluded and were not excluded. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: "Plaintiff has received copies of the school registration in which it clearly states Obama’s name as “Barry Soetoro,” and lists his citizenship as Indonesian." I've even seen a photo of that registration on line. But that does not mean that the registration is the truth. The fact is that the government of Indonesia says that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia. So, that means that the registration must have been a lie. Why would the parents lie? Well, the public schools in Indonesia took in foreigners. BUT we do not know whether this particular PRIVATE school accepted foreigners. Maybe it did not. So, what is the easy thing to do, apply for citizenship for Obama, or just lie about it? There is reason to believe that if they had applied for citizenship for Obama, the Indonesian government would not have granted it. THAT is because of the laws in Indonesia that forbid dual nationality. Obama was not old enough to legally renounce US citizenship in a statement at a US Embassy. If he could not renounce US citizenship, he would stay a US citizen under US law. The Indonesians knew this, and since they did not allow someone to become an Indonesian citizen who had dual nationality, they would not have accepted Obama. All this is speculation. The facts are that the Indonesian government says that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Oh but it does. Constututions are documents of legal inclusion, they list all that is allowed unless interpreted by judicial authority to include more or differently. There are no documents or rulings in Indonesia that includes anyone except Indonesians in its protections. This is a departure from the US system (but in accordance with the vast majority of countries) that gives these constitutional rights to anyone on its soil. Other laws are those of exclusion. Baloney! I have just called the Indonesian Embassy in Washington, and the press officer there told me that he attended public schools in Jakarata and that he had many foreign friends attending public school with him. That was in the 1970 and 1980s, about the time when Obama was in public schools in Jakarta. The press officer said that as far as he knew, even earlier there were no restrictions on foreigners attending public schools. "Public schools are for everyone, so long as they can speak Indonesia," he said. Re: "There are no documents or rulings in Indonesia that includes anyone except Indonesians in its protections. This is a departure from the US system (but in accordance with the vast majority of countries) that gives these constitutional rights to anyone on its soil. Other laws are those of exclusion. All this is interpretation and speculation, done by an American who is not an expert in Indonesian Law. If you really want to speak to an expert in Indonesian Law, there is one at the Indonesian Embassy, his name is Mr Razal, and he can be reached on 202-775-5329. Here are the facts: (1) Foreigners can attend Indonesian public schools, and they do. (2) Obama never was an Indonesian citizen and never had an Indonesian passport. (3) Obama did not need an Indonesian passport in order to travel to Pakistan. Pakistan granted US citizens visas at the airports; (4) In order to get from Hawaii to Indonesia, Obama had to either get a US passport of his own, or travel on his mother's passport. In either case, the US government (the State Department) would have required proof that he was a US citizen, which of course would have been his Hawaii birth certificate. I do not know whether that was a COLB or the original birth certificate, but it was accepted as proof that he was born in Hawaii. Now, as to the Indonesian Constitution. It says: "Every citizen has the right to receive education." That does not mean that foreigners in Indonesia CANNOT receive education. If they do not receive education, that's too bad. They do not have a right to education, like citizens, but there's nothing saying that they should be excluded either, and as the Indonesian Embassy says, they are not and were not excluded. So, whoever told you that you had to be an Indonesian citizen to go to school in Indonesia is wrong. And there is this: From the Indonesian Constitution. Article 28C "(1) Every person shall have the right to develop him/herself through the fulfilment of his/her basic needs, the right to get education and to benefit from science and technology, arts and culture, for the purpose of improving the quality of his/her life and for the welfare of the human race. ' Notice every PERSON has the right. I don't think that this means that every foreign person has the right to go to school, but it does not mean that they are forbidden to attend public school either. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: The lagal experts include the written constitution of the nation which FORBIDS foreigners to be enrolled in public school. What a jerk. You keep saying the same thing over and over as if it were proof. Where does it specifically say that foreigners are forbidden or that only Indonesians could go to public school? Tomorrow I am going to call the Indonesian Embassy again and ask them whether the constitution forbids foreigners from going to public school. Re Traveled on mother's passport. Right, and guess what you have to prove to the US government in order to have a child entered on the MOTHER'S PASSPORT? You had to prove that the child was a citizen of the USA. How? By showing a birth certificate, of course. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: " We also know that he, and anyone, could travel to Pakistan on a US > passport. No, we do not. There is "0" proof he had one. If there is proof please produce it and I'll send you 500 USD. " I won't take your money. As has been shown above, with Keith being one of the ones who showed it. In 1981, Pakistan gave 30-day visas to US passport holders when they arrived in Pakistan. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: That is absolutely false In those days children travelled on the MOTHERS passport. I did this as a child until I was 13 (that equals 26 cross atlantic travels. and covers the sixties) Yes, I traveled on my mother's passport once too. However, we know that Obama returned to Hawaii from Indonesia while his mother stayed in Indonesia. Also we know, because the Indonesian government says so, that Obama never had an Indonesian passport. Also with the British. He never had a British passport. So he must have used a US passport. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: "The lagal experts include the written constitution of the nation which FORBIDS foreigners to be enrolled in public school. This was posted and discussed with YOU earlier in this thread. For you to now ask this question is assinine." Same to you. (1) A legal expert is a person. (2) The constitution of Indonesia says that Indonesian children must be educated. It DOES not say that foreigners are not to be allowed in public schools. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: "Your contention that a child cannot lose his citizenship through his parents acts is an absolute crock. Of course they can." Baloney! Cite a case. Here is the US State Department's site showing the causes of loss of citizenship. Notice that use of a foreign passport is not one of them. Nor is being adopted by someone. http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html Naturalization by a foreign country can be a cause, but the State Department then says: "In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who: 1. is naturalized in a foreign country; 2. takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state; 3. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or 4. accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government, and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed. When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a) (3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship." Wikipedia notes: "In the wake of administrative practice changes adopted by the U.S. Department of State during the mid 1990s, it is now virtually impossible to lose one's citizenship without expressly renouncing it before a U.S. consular officer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Loss_of_citizenship In Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967)[1], the Supreme Court ruled that a United States citizen cannot be deprived of American citizenship involuntarily.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Afroyim_v._Rusk) And there have been subsequent rulings that a child is not mature enough to make the voluntary decision to renounce citizenship, nor can the child's citizenship be taken away due to actions by parents. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: "According to Indonesian legal experts, it was difficult to enroll non-Indonesian citizens in public schooling.' Who are these Indonesian "experts?" Are they willing to be quoted by name? Were they quoted from WND? Indonesia was under tight control in 1981, but if you knew the right people you could get anything done for $$$. I find it odd that you do not believe the Indonesian government, but you do believe Obama's parents. This is surely a reversal. Re: "Indonesian law at the time also did not recognize dual citizenship, meaning if Obama became Indonesian." Certainly. That is why it was difficult to become an Indonesian citizen. Very DIFFICULT (That is what other Indonesian Law experts say). So, his parents never even tried to make him a citizen. They just said that he was. Re: "Lolo Soetoro could could have adopted Obama in Hawaii, although such an adoption would not have necessarily been recognized by Indonesia.' Not likely. Adoptions are not secret in Hawaii, and the records of them are public documents and are filed at the office of the Lt. Gov (a Republican), where the files are available to be searched. I suppose that the McCain and Hillary campaigns would already have searched there. Possibly Obama was adopted under Indonesian law, but just using the stepfather's name with the right bribes would have been sufficient. Remember that Obama's real father was still alive at the time, and I imagine that even under Indonesian law they would have wanted some documents from the real father. In fact, it might be extremely difficult to adopt even if there were documents from Obama Sr. A lot of countries do not like allowing another man to become someone's legal father when the real father is still alive. Re: "which stipulated any child aged five or younger adopted by an Indonesian father is immediately granted Indonesian citizenship upon completion of the adoption process." Yes, but the Indonesian government says that he never was a citizen of Indonesia. That is a fact. The rest is speculation. Speculation that he was adopted. Speculation that that was really the law. Speculation that he had an Indonesian passport. Speculation that he used it. We know that he must have had a US passport because he had to get from Hawaii to Indonesia the first time, and he had to get back from Indonesia to the USA to go to school, and if he traveled on an Indonesian passport on that return, he would have had to get a VISA from the USA, and the records of that visa would still be on file at the US State Department in Washington. We also know that he, and anyone, could travel to Pakistan on a US passport. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: "No, it was not. There is no proof that he had a US passport in 1981. There is only the statement by him that he did travel then. He has refused to say on what passport he travelled.' The proof is that he never had either an Indonesian passport or a British passport, which I determined by calling both embassies. As for it being difficult to travel in Pakistan in 1981. Quote: State Department Travel Advisory Pakistan 1981 “Before traveling to Pakistan, American Citizens should be aware of the following updated visa requirements: 30 day visas are available at Pakistani airports for tourists only. As these visas are rarely extended beyond the 30 day time per visa. Tourists planning to stay longer should secure visas before coming to Pakistan. Any traveler coming into Pakistan overland from India must repeat must have a valid visa, as 30 day visas are not repeat not issued at the overland border crossing point at Wagha.” US State Department Travel Advisory for Pakistan in 1981, No. 81-33A So, according to the US State Department, the Pakistan government would give a US citizen a 30-day visa when she or he showed up at a Pakistan airport. There is no advice about worrying about riots or kidnappings. Those were the days! As the New York Times wrote in a travel article in 1981 about Lahore: “Lahore is fine. Lahore is a survivor, and all of its bittersweet history is here for the tourist to see, in the tombs and mosques, palaces and fortresses, museums, gardens and parks that make this one of the most fascinating and pleasurable of the subcontinent’s attractions. Pakistan - Lahore is its second-largest city - has restored and preserved historical buildings while developing a clean, modern town around them.” Re: Further, while residing in Indonesia as a child, President Obama's mother and step-father enrolled Obama in school, registering him as a citizen of Indonesia. That is true. But it must have been a lie, a lie, a lie. What they told the school was that he was a citizen of Indonesia, but he wasn't. Why not? Because Indonesia says that he was never a citizen. Is it immoral to lie? Sure. Is it illegal to lie? Maybe this would have been illegal in Indonesia 30 or so years ago, but the people who lied are both dead. Can a lie affect Obama's citizenship? No. Even if it were the truth, could it affect his citizenship? NO because you cannot lose your citizenship when you are a child due to some action taken by a parent. Re the military rule affecting travel and it being easier to travel on an Indonesian passport. It was NORMAL for Pakistan to be under a military government. They rarely had a civilian government throughout the 1970s and 1980s. I cannot see why travel on an Indonesian passport would have been any easier for Obama. Imagine the Pakistan officials checking in a six-foot "Indonesian" when normally they see only 5' 5" Indonesians, or less. As for Obama not having said that he had a US passport, when he said he went to Pakistan he assumed that we would be able to calculate that if he (1) never had an Indonesian passport, and (2) never had a British passport, we would be able to draw the conclusion that he traveled on a US passport. He must have had a US passport. How do you think he got from Hawaii to Indonesia the first time? Not only did Pakistan International Airlines fly from JFK to Karachi in those days, but they did so during a strike by US airlines, and the newspapers reported on using it as a way to get from the USA to Europe because it stopped in London. Not only did Pakistan International Airlines fly from JFK, but it had an office on Fifth Avenue! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: He is American
Re: Q: Is it possible that Obama traveled with a U.S. passport in 1981? A: No. It is not possible. Pakistan was on the U.S. State Department’s “no travel” list in 1981. Yes it is possible that he traveled on a US passport. Pakistan was NOT on a U.S. State Department no travel list in 1981. Pakistan was an ally of the USA and it was relatively calm then--far calmer than now. Pakistan International Airlines had flights from Kennedy Airport to Karachi and some newspapers even had travel articles about how interesting it was to visit scenic Lahore. Pakistan granted 30 days visas to Americans on arrival at Pakistan. It is also easy to show that Obama was never an Indonesian citizen and hence never had an Indonesia passport. How? Simply call up the Indonesian Embassy and ask them. No, he was never an Indonesian citizen and never had an Indonesian passport. You can check, of course. Here's the number: (202) 775 - 5200. So, what passport did he travel to Pakistan on? A US passport, of course. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
The COLB is accepted as PROOF of birth in Hawaii by the US State Department for issuing passports and by the US miliary for enlistments. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: No. it lists A date and A place that is sworn to by the mother for up to one year after A birth. and registers it as any other birth. Baloney! The provision on late birth was impossible to use because the date of registration was four days after his birth. Lori, quoted earlier, has shown that it was NOT possible for a mother simply to swear that the child was born in Hawaii and that would be accepted by the officials in Hawaii. If the child was not born in a hospital, she needed proof that he was born in Hawaii, which would have been impossible to get if he was born in Kenya and she had to get back to Hawaii in four days. The COLB clearly shows that the registration was four days after his birth. What proof? This is what Lori said: "Vital Records wants solid proof that the child was born locally - they want a pediatrician’s record stating he examined the child and is certifying that he is a newborn infant. they want prenatal care records. And they want a notarized statement from a midwife or whomever attended the birth." But that was not necessary because Obama was born in a hospital in Hawaii, like thousands of other kids born in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "There is no question that you and I both have a right to know whether President Obama is a natural born citizen." Absolutely, and we have had our right fulfilled because Obama has posted a legal document proving that he was born in Hawaii. But, if you say that we have the right to see his college records. No we don't. Or his housing record while at college. No we don't. Or his college essays. No we don't. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "only that his birth was registered in Hawaii shortly after his birth." Since Hawaii did not register foreign births at the time, the place of his birth had to be Hawaii. Mark keeps saying that a birth can be registered a year after the birth. But in this case it was registered four days after his birth-- shown on the COLB--and the notice in the newspaper, which was generated by the Department of Vital Records, appeared in the newspapers ten days after his birth. Stanley Obama could not have lied about the place of birth because it was impossible for her to get back from Kenya and produce fraudulent evidence--which Hawaii demanded--that he was born in Hawaii. Instead, the evidence came to the Department of Health and then to the Department of Vital Records in the normal way, from the hospital. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "there is compelling evidence that would lead any reasonable person to believe that President Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen." Baloney! There is no proof that Obama was born in Kenya. There is official proof that he was born in Hawaii. When you prove the contrary show me. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "I doubt very seriously that an infant was required to have had a Visa when traveling abroad with his mother. ' I suppose that you are thinking of a US infant traveling out of the USA. No, what you are talking about in this scenario is a Kenyan infant traveling to the USA. And infant born in Kenya would be considered a Kenyan (British subject at the time), or it is possible but less likely that he could be considered a US citizen born in Kenya (though many point out that his mother was not old enough to confer citizenship). In the latter case, he could get a US passport in Kenya or be added to his mother's US passport. BUT he could not travel to the USA without any travel document. He would have to have either a visa or a US passport. So who would decide? Not the US consulate in Kenya. It would have to be at the Sate Department in Washington--so cable traffic back and forth (long before e-mail). And it was in August, when Washington DC slows down to a crawl. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
I think you are still talking about the law about proof of Hawaiian birth by race for special land grants. I have already pointed out to you that DHHL accepts the COLB for proof of birth in Hawaii. It asks for an original birth certificate, but DHHL recognizes that only the people whose families saved the original birth certificate will be able to provide it. If the families did not save the original birth certificate, or if it was lost, DHHL accepts the COLB and tries to find other documents that prove Hawaiian race. This, of course, does NOT apply to Obama, who merely needs to have an official document proving his birth in Hawaii, which this COLB does. Not all COLBs say "born in Hawaii," but this one does. When a Hawaiian COLB says "born in Hawaii," it is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by such federal agencies as the State Department for passports and the branches of the military for enlistments. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: Why would you, or any other American, including President Obama be opposed to releasing the "vaulted" birth certificate? Two main reasons, (1) if I want something does that mean that I would get it? Say I want the Cubs to win the world series. I want, but I do not expect. In this case, the government of Hawaii says that it will send out only the COLB. So wanting may have no effect. (2) Why should I want something if the essential facts of what I want have already been provided to me? In the COLB it says that Obama was born in Hawaii. That is not a lie, nor is the document forged. And, in 1961 it was not possible to register a foreign birth in Hawaii. Some have said that there was a loophole for late registrations of birth, but we know that Obamas' birth was officially registered four days after he was born. We also know from Lori that Hawaii insisted on proof of birth in Hawaii if a person were born outside of a hospital. (3) Therefore, he must have been born in Hawaii. (4) Thus I already have proof that he was born in Hawaii and even if I wanted more, I would not be sure of getting it, because Hawaii says it does not send it out--not even to the people who ask for their own birth certificates. Some other reasons why Obama does not ask for more than the COLB. (1) The COLB is sufficient to legally prove birth in Hawaii (2) Hawaii sends out only the COLB to people who ask for their birth certificates. (3) So, to get something that the state of Hawaii does not normally issue to ordinary people is asking for a special privilege. (4) For Hawaii to send Obama more than the COLB, when it only sends out the COLB normally would be for it to be granting a special privilege. (5) Not one prominent in the Republican party is asking to see anything. Who then is asking to see something more than the COLB? By doing something for them, would I win their votes? (6) There is no need to disclose anything unless and until a court asks for it, and if a court ask for it, Obama then does not have to worry about asking for anything special or Hawaii about doing anything special. And, if a court asks to see it, a court would be set up to verify its authenticity, which would not be the case with a Web posting. (7) The people who are asking to see more than the COLB must logically believe that Obama's mother lied. He is not likely to do anything to make such people happy. (There is no way that the COLB can be wrong in the location of birth unless the mother lied because Hawaii did not register foreign births in 1961.) (8) The people who believe that the COLB is wrong and that Obama was born in Kenya must believe that there was a way to get a Kenyan-born infant from Kenya to the USA without a US visa, or that somehow over the last year a US visa in the State Department files would not have been found by now. Is it worthwhile doing something for people who can believe that two plus two may equal three? (9) Legally, to show the original birth certificate, if that were possible (since Hawaii sends out only the COLB), would open the way to the other side to demand other private data, such as college records. (10) Do presidents have the right of privacy to some extent? I should fight to protect the rights of other presidents to keep their birth records private, other than what they show voluntarily. The "birthers" insist in their lawsuits that they have the right to see this. I say that they have no right. Let them prove that they have a right, or, if they do not, then I will prove that president's have at least some rights of privacy. and, to repeat (1) the COLB is legally sufficient to PROVE birth in Hawaii. It is accepted by the State Department and by the branches of the military, and there is NO evidence that Obama was born anywhere other than in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Please cite the full name and full HRS of this law. I've searched for HRS 303 and found "EMPLOYEES' ANNUITY AND CUSTODIAL ACCOUNT CONTRACTS" On Mar 18, 7:37 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE wrote: > HRS 303 says both you and he are wrong. > > On Mar 18, 1:49 pm,smrstrauss wrote: > > > Prove that he is wrong! > > > On Mar 18, 3:39 pm, Keith In Tampa wrote: > > > > Clearly, Mr. Walden does not know of what he speaks. A number of his > > > hypothetical premises are incorrect, in particular with regard to the > > > Honolulu Advertiser and the Honolulu Star-Bulletin printing the birth > > > announcements. > > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 1:18 PM,smrstrauss wrote: > > > > > A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a > > > > right-wing blog based in Hawaii. > > > > >http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType... > > > > > Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i > > > > by Andrew Walden > > > > > It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones. > > > > > A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that > > > > Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which > > > > distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. > > > > This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose > > > > not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard- > > > > left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at > > > > Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu. > > > > > Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth > > > > certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of > > > > Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or > > > > the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 > > > > Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The > > > > Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers > > > > require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth > > > > announcement. > > > > > End Quote > > > > > Obama's birth certificate is the same as everyone in Hawaii gets. > > > > Obama's birth certificate says "born in Hawaii." In 1961 there were no > > > > provisions for registering a foreign birth in Hawaii.- Hide quoted text > > > > - > > > - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "President Obama has a duty to prove that he is a natural born citizen." He has. He did so by posting the official birth document issued in Hawaii, which shows that he was born in Hawaii. This is legal proof, which is accepted by the US government for proof of birth in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Prove that he is wrong! On Mar 18, 3:39 pm, Keith In Tampa wrote: > Clearly, Mr. Walden does not know of what he speaks. A number of his > hypothetical premises are incorrect, in particular with regard to the > Honolulu Advertiser and the Honolulu Star-Bulletin printing the birth > announcements. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 1:18 PM, smrstrauss wrote: > > > A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a > > right-wing blog based in Hawaii. > > >http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType... > > > Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i > > by Andrew Walden > > > It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones. > > > A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that > > Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which > > distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. > > This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose > > not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard- > > left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at > > Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu. > > > Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth > > certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of > > Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or > > the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 > > Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The > > Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers > > require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth > > announcement. > > > End Quote > > > Obama's birth certificate is the same as everyone in Hawaii gets. > > Obama's birth certificate says "born in Hawaii." In 1961 there were no > > provisions for registering a foreign birth in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a right-wing blog based in Hawaii. http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/92/Barack-Obama-Born-in-Hawaii.aspx Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i by Andrew Walden It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones. A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard- left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu. Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth announcement. End Quote Obama's birth certificate is the same as everyone in Hawaii gets. Obama's birth certificate says "born in Hawaii." In 1961 there were no provisions for registering a foreign birth in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
I notice that no one is claiming birth in Kenya anymore. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
I notice that no one is claiming that Obama was born in Kenya anymore. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
I notice no one seems to be claiming that Obama was born in Kenya anymore. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: One of these petitions has over 600,000 names on it, (1) This one says only 325,000 (and some may have signed several times) http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91763 (2) Are all the people who signed US citizens? Did they have to prove it? (3) You said "millions" --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
But Obama's birth was not registered late. It was registered within a > few days of his birth. Proof ?? The date of registration is right on the Certification of Live Birth.See "Date Filed Bu Registrar" just below Race of Father. It clearly says August 8, 1961. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
NO. His birth was registered by the State of Hawaii on August 8, 1961, > four days after his birth. Proof ?? there is none. You have to look at the Certification of Live Birth again. Look at the Date Filed By Registrar, just under Father's Race. You will see Aug. 8, 1961. Re: "No, it is sufficient info that his borth was REGISTERED in Hawaii. Nothing more without the release of the physicians afadavit.' The Certification of Live Birth is the Hawaii government's official certification that the birth took place in Hawaii. That means that the original birth certificate must say that the birth took place in Hawaii. Since that is official, nothing more is legally necessary unless there is proof that he was born somewhere other than Hawaii, which there is NOT. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
I, as well as millions of Americans believe that there has been sufficient questions raised to constitute "Doubt" as to whether President Obama was born in Hawaii, and because the quesiton raised is of a Constitutional nature; yes, President Obama must produce his original birth certificate. Proof that there are millions of Americans who believe what you say? Where is the proof? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: The law also says that for up to one year after birth i can register one by signing an afadavit as to where the child was born... only after the child is one year old would the record show the delay But Obama's birth was not registered late. It was registered within a few days of his birth. Re: What that says is that I can get a COLB with nothing but my name on it. No it doesn't. The State of Hawaii determines what goes on a COLB and they are always the same. It always lists the place of birth. Re: his birth could have been registered and sworn to by his mother at any time. NO. His birth was registered by the State of Hawaii on August 8, 1961, four days after his birth. Re: "(yes, the newpaper would pick up on the birth registration within the normal time limit and printed something obscure just as for any birth or registration )" Only if the registration took place before the newspaper was published, which was on Aug. 13. There is no proof that he was born in Kenya. The Certification of Live Birth is sufficient proof that he was born in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Actually, there are a number of reasons not to ask for more than the COLB. (1) The COLB is sufficient to legally prove birth in Hawaii (2) Hawaii sends out only the COLB to people who ask for their birth certificates. (3) So, to get something that the state of Hawaii does not normally issue to ordinary people is asking for a special privilege. (4) For Hawaii to send Obama more than the COLB, when it only sends out the COLB normally would be for it to be granting a special privilege. (5) Not one prominent in the Republican party is asking to see anything. Who then is asking to see something more than the COLB? By doing something for them, would I win their votes? (6) There is no need to disclose anything unless and until a court asks for it, and if a court ask for it, Obama then does not have to worry about asking for anything special or Hawaii about doing anything special. And, if a court asks to see it, a court would be set up to verify its authenticity, which would not be the case with a Web posting. (7) The people who are asking to see more than the COLB must logically believe that Obama's mother lied. He is not likely to do anything to make such people happy. (There is no way that the COLB can be wrong in the location of birth unless the mother lied because Hawaii did not register foreign births in 1961.) (8) The people who believe that the COLB is wrong and that Obama was born in Kenya must believe that there was a way to get a Kenyan-born infant from Kenya to the USA without a US visa, or that somehow over the last year a US visa in the State Department files would not have been found by now. Is it worthwhile doing something for people who can believe that two plus two may equal three? (9) Legally, to show the original birth certificate, if that were possible (since Hawaii sends out only the COLB), would open the way to the other side to demand other private data, such as college records. (10) Do presidents have the right of privacy to some extent? I should fight to protect the rights of other presidents to keep their birth records private, other than what they show voluntarily. The "birthers" insist in their lawsuits that they have the right to see this. I say that they have no right. Let them prove that they have a right, or, if they do not, then I will prove that president's have at least some rights of privacy. and, to repeat (1) the COLB is legally sufficient to PROVE birth in Hawaii. It is accepted by the State Department and by the branches of the military, and there is NO evidence that Obama was born anywhere other than in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request. That is exactly what I said, the verification process will not show any more than what the COLB showed. You say that that is not enough. I say it is. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "Philip Berg is many things, but delusional is not one of them." You say this despite his claims that the Bush administration was involved in the fall of the twin towers? Re: "The fee for a letter of verification is $5 per letter. http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html' I have no idea what a letter of verification is, but I will bet you that if you ask they will tell you that a letter of verification will verify whether the COLB is accurate or not. That's all. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: Yep, all that and only ten bucks will get the Vault copy with afadvit. You have yet to give me one logical reason he won't simply release it. All that the DOH will send you, if you send $10 or anything is the COLB. The COLB is all that they send out. If you do not believe me, check with them: vr-i...@doh.hawaii.gov. So all the questions about why doesn’t he post the long-form birth certificate have two simple answers: (1) The Certification of Live Birth is THE official birth certificate, it shows that he was born in Hawaii, and it is legally sufficient to prove it. The COLB is accepted by the US State Department for issuing passports and by the US military for enlisting in the Army, Navy and Marine. And: (2) Unless he has kept the original birth certificate and not mislaid it, all that he can post is what Hawaii will send him, which is only the Certification of Live Birth, which is what he has already posted. By the way. I notice you are no longer claiming that Obama was born in Kenya. Still think so? Really think that a pregnant Stanley Obama flew to Kenya (when you had to get Yellow Fever shots) and yet there are no photos of her in Kenya and no record of her arriving in Kenya and no sign of a US visa for baby Obama to come to the USA? Really think she lied about it all her life, never told anyone about how hot it was giving birth in Kenya? (Because, if she did, someone might remember it.) Or, do you just keep saying "the COLB is not sufficient." Under law it proves birth in the USA unless there is proof to the contrary. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: Read it. Have done so, several times. This is the original complaint: http://www.obamacrimes.info/082108ObamaComplaint.pdf Berg says he had testimony, but has not shown it. He also said: "Wayne Madsen, Journalist with Online Journal was a contributing writer and published an article on June 9, 2008 stating the GOP sent a research team to Mombasa, Kenya and located a Certificate Registering the birth of Barack Obama, Jr. at a Maternity Hospital, to his father, a Kenyan Citizen and his mother, a U.S. Citizen." But here is Madsen's Web site. There's no mention of such an article. http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/ Berg has also claimed that George W. Bush was involved in 911 and that it was really a plot by the US government. Another critic of Obama, who has sued to get the original birth certificate said this: Andy Martin asks PA Supreme Court to investigate Phil Berg Filed in Barack Obama, Miscellaneous, Politics on Nov.12, 2008 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: INTERNET POWERHOUSE ANDY MARTIN ASKS PENNSYLVANIA SUPREME COURT DISCIPLINARY BOARD TO EXAMINE ATTORNEY PHILIP BERG’S PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT (NEW YORK)(November 12, 2008) Andy Martin has asked the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania Disciplinary Board to investigate the conduct of anti- Obama attorney Philip J. Berg of Lafayette Hill, PA. “There have been a lot of questions, and criticism, swirling around Mr. Berg’s behavior,” Martin stated. “I thought his behavior merited a look by the Disciplinary Board. That way there can be a fair and impartial examination of his claims and actions.” A copy of Martin’s Statement, which is part of Martin’s form complaint, (faxed to the DB today, November 12th) follows: November 12, 2008 Philip J. Berg contacted me in mid-August about a complaint he proposed to file in federal court. He sent me the complaint to review, and I advised him the complaint was nonsense. He was suing the wrong parties in the wrong court for the wrong relief. Berg said he wanted to “enjoin the Democratic National Convention,” which caused me to question his sanity. He pleaded that Barack Obama was “born in Kenya” when there is not a shred of credible evidence to support this claim. He filed his complaint and then began issuing a series of asinine news releases about the progress of his lawsuit. Berg is playing on the vulnerability of people who intensely dislike President-elect Barack Obama, and using his inflated accusations to solicit money from the public. He constantly exaggerates or misrepresents the facts. In early September persons acting on his behalf claimed there was a “court order” for Obama to produce a birth certificate. No such order existed. Then he claimed Obama was in “default” and had “admitted” he was born in Kenya. This was compete nonsense. As someone who is a genuine critic of Mr. Obama, I know firsthand what confusion Berg creates with his false and misleading claims. Most recently he or persons acting in concert with him have suggested that the U.S. Supreme Court “ordered” a response to his nonsense. The Court has done nothing of the sort. The court’s rules simply provide a thirty-day period for responses. I don’t know whether Berg suffers from an emotional disturbance, or is merely a money-grubbing huckster, or what, but Berg’s behavior is undermining public faith in the integrity of the Pennsylvania legal profession. Berg has been disciplined in the past for misconduct: systocracy.com/Bergmalpracticetwo www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/05D0679P.pdf www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/05d0521p.pdf Lawyers are entitled to engage in vigorous advocacy. They are encouraged to extend and revise legal precedents. But they are not entitled to file delusional claims without a scintilla of support, particularly when they then use these delusional claims as a basis to solicit money from the public. Mr. Berg has previously claimed that the U.S. Government blew up the World Trade Center, again without shred of evidence to support his nonsense. He is a threat to vulnerable citizens who tend to believe his false claims and give him money on the false assumption that Berg is acting in good faith. By stealing small amounts of money from people across the nation he has flown under the radar of professional discipline. No competent attorney could have acted as Berg did during the past three months. His behavior in federal court, all of which is a public record, is outrageous. - A copy of Martin’s complaint is available by fax (not e-mail) - Andy Martin is a legendary Chicago muckraker, author, Internet columnist, radio talk show host, broadcaster and media critic. He has over forty years of broadcasting experience in radio and television. He is currently based in New York selling his new book, Obama: The Man Behind The Mask. Andy is the Executive Editor and publisher of www.ContrarianCommentary.com. © Copyright by Andy Martin 2008. Martin comments on regional, national and world events with over forty years of ex
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "Sworn and notorized statements by his nearest living relatives that do not reside with him. They are from Kenya. " Baloney. Show them! No one has ever seen them. The grandmother tape actually shows that he was born in Hawaii. To hear the full recording of the Obama grandmother interview, go to: ?” http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/independent-grandmother-transcript/ (Click on full Sarah Obama Tape.) Her answer occurs at about five minutes into the tape following the question: "Whereabouts was Obama born?'' A paternal uncle says that Obama first visited Kenya in 1987. Jerome Corsi says in his book “Obama Nation” on pages 24-25: “Obama has been in Africa three times,” Sayid [Obama, the President's uncle in Kenya] insisted. “The first time was in 1986. Then he came back again in 1992, when he was collecting material for his autobiography…” And then there is this: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/more-testimony-obama-was-born-in-k/ Here’s all the unlikely things that would have to happen for Obama to have been born in Kenya: (1) His mother would have had to travel to Kenya in 1961 when she was already pregnant. It was a relatively expensive and difficult trip (no direct flights), and airlines in those days often did not allow women to travel when they were visibly pregnant, even as early as five or six months. Why? Because of the chances of miscarriages. (2) She would have had to get a Yellow Fever shot, necessary at the time to visit Africa, which is bad for pregnant women. (3) She would have had to forgo one of the advantages of traveling, seeing the sights on the way to or from Kenya. (Or else there would be photos of her in such cities as London or Tokyo, or she would at least have talked about her trip, which someone could have remembered). (4) She would have had to have gone to Kenya and not been proud of the trip—how else to explain the lack of photos? (5) She would have had to have given birth in Kenya but never told anyone about that birth outside of her family. (Or someone would have remembered.) (6) She would have had to have given birth in Kenya, come right back with infant Obama on the airplane (or ship), and although many people must have seen her traveling with the child, then filed a Hawaii legal document saying that Obama was born in Hawaii. (To lie when people have seen you doing something different than you claim is particularly risky.) (7) IF she had given birth in Kenya, she would have had to get either a Kenyan or a US travel document for her child to get him to Hawaii. If the former, there would be a record of a visa issued to Barak H. Obama Jr in Kenya. If the latter, there would be the record of a US passport issued to him or a revision of his mother’s passport IN KENYA. Those records would exist in US files. Yet no one has found them —and during the election campaign most likely someone would have looked. (8) Kenya would be part of the conspiracy because if Obama were born there, there would have to be Kenyan birth records, but the “birthers” claim that all the files are “sealed.” (There is no independent confirmation from newsagencies or newspapers that there are any files or that Kenya sealed anything.) (9) Or, if Obama’s parents did not lie about the place of birth, and the Certification of Live Birth issued by Hawaii is wrong about the listed place of birth—which is Hawaii--then the officials in Hawaii must be part of the conspiracy. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "Given that you are correct, name ONE "logical" reason to spend millions to stop the release of the vault copy instead of spending ten bucks to openly comply with constitutional law.' When you send ten bucks to Hawaii to get a birth certificate, you get the COLB. That is all you get and it is all that they will send out. They said so to me. And that is what Obama posted, and it says "born in Hawaii." Is it proof of birth in Hawaii? It is legal proof unless there is a law case with actual proof to the contrary. Is there proof to the contrary? No. Re: "Spend millions of bucks." He hasn't. All the cases were about stopping the election. None were only to ask for a copy of the original birth certificate. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: So, after all of that you admit to having "0" proof that the COLB represents facts from a "vault" copy containing an afadavit of birth. The COLB is proof that the original birth certificate, which must be from Hawaii, says that he was born in Hawaii. The details on registration of birth, which Lori shows included protections against the parents lying about the place of birth, confirm the COLB. What Lori is saying is that based solely on the external evidence, the need for the parents to provide proof of the child being born in Hawaii if he was born outside of a hospital, it is likely (an understatement in my opinion) that the COLB is correct. However, if the COLB were wrong, Lori's evidence shows that even the original birth certificate would have to be wrong. It is virtually impossible to fool the system, but if the system were fooled, it would fool the original birth certificate. The COLB merely reflects the original birth certificate. There is no way that the original birth certificate can show that he was born in Kenya or Indonesia because Hawaii would not accept foreign births in its birth files at that time. Thus there is no foreign birth certificate in the file and no Hawaiian birth certificate saying Kenya or Indonesia. Only a direct lie with forged supporting evidence that he was born in Hawaii would get an original birth certificate to say that he was born in Hawaii if he were born somewhere else. And that would have to be a lie in the face of many people in the planes and in the US government (which would have had to grant a visa to Obama) knowing that he was born in Kenya or Indonesia. Lori thinks that this is not impossible. But I think it is virtually impossible. Re : "Wher does it say anything about foreigners having this right ??' They do not have the right. On the other hand, they are not barred from attending either. The constitution allows them to attend, since it does not say "They may not attend." If there is another law saying that they may not attend, no one has found it. The bottom line is that the Indonesian Embassy says that he was never a citizen. Speculation based on an assumption that Indonesian schools did not accept foreign citizens is mere speculation. The fact is that the Indonesian embassy says that he was never a citizen. Re: "to spend literally millions to NOT show the vault copy." Internet myth. None of the cases were only about the birth certificate. Before the election ALL of the cases were about stopping the election or stopping certification, and that is what the money was spent on. The continuing cases are not only about the birth certificate either. Most allege that he would not be eligible to be president even if he were born in Hawaii because of his father being Kenyan. So these lawsuits would not stop even if Obama showed his original birth certificate, which he does not have to because the COLB is official proof that he was born in Hawaii, and which he cannot do because Hawaii sends out only the COLB to people who ask for copies of their birth certificate. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "The COLB is a registration of birth based on infosupplied by the "parents" so this arguement of yours does apply." In this case there is good evidence that the COLB is based on an original birth certificate that was generated by a hospital. Only that could explain the birth notice in the newspaper that was generated by the Department of Vital Records of Hawaii and sent out to newspapers within 10 days of the birth. The fact that the announcement was generated by the Department of Vital Records and sent to the newspapers, which published it within 10 days of the birth (hence making it impossible to be a late filing) comes from this: which was posted on this Web site http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/obama-was-likely-born-in-hawaii/ And it is confirmed by another post I saw (but failed to copy, sorry) which was a fellow who commented briefly that he lived in Hawaii at about that time and found a notice in the newspaper for the birth of his child, which he and his family did not post. Quotes: Lori (the name of the woman who posted this) Hi, I’ve talked to the Department of Vital Records and the Honolulu Advertiser. In 1961, the hospitals would take their new birth certificates to Vital Records. At the end of the week, Vital Records would post a sheet that for the newspaper to pick up that contained births, deaths, marriages and divorces. The Advertiser routinely printed this information in their Sunday edition. This is not a paid announcement that his grandmother could arrange. This is information that comes from Vital Records - we know this because this particular section reflects those records. They didn’t have a provision for paid, one sentence announcement that would be included in the Vital Records. At the time, if a child was born outside a hospital, the family would have 30 days to apply for a birth certificate and Vital Records would expect to see prenatal care records, or pediatrician records of the first check up, etc. They’d also want the notarized statement from the mid-wife. Of course, they can apply later but that would noted as a different kind of birth certificate. I think TD has already addressed that. This information was received by Vital Records the first week of his birth = that suggests the hospital. Next, the announcement is from Sunday, August 13th and Obama was born on Friday, August 4th. Hospitals usually don’t take birth certificate information the first couple days to avoid changes. So it was likely filled out on the 4th or so, as hospital stays were usually 3 - 5 days at the time. Lastly, having worked in a newborn nursery in college, hospitals don’t ask for documentation. If mom says she’s married, that’s what they write. They have no authority to question her statement. In Honolulu at the time, paid birth announcements weren’t in vogue. Frequently families would post one year announcements that included pictures from the party, etc. I haven’t checked to see if that exists. I hope that finishes clearing this up. (But there was more) As I just said, the birth announcement comes from the Department of Vital Records - not from the family. On Fridays, Vital Records would post a list of births, deaths, marriages and divorces that the papers would pick up and publish. That’s what this is. The information in there is the information Vital Records provided to the newspapers for public record. That’s all this is. The marital status only reflects what Ann Dunham told the nurse about her marital status - the hospital has no authority to question the mother’s word. The family played no role whatsoever in this being published and we know this from where it is placed in the paper. (And still more) Yes, it has changed. Now, births are not publicly announced by Vital Records as they were at the time. The only birth announcments now are paid announcements. But in the early sixties, paid announcement were very rare in that newspaper. The families preferred to do announcements at the first birthday which included photos, etc. (And still more) LB - no, that’s an inaccurate assessment. What you know is that Texas Darlin’ has received an email forwarded from the Hawaii State Library that is a a clipping from the Honolulu Advertiser’s Sunday August 13th, 1961 edition that proves the Department of Vital Records provided a list of births for the previous week that included Barack Obama - that’s what you know. You’re not taking my word for it. You’re taking TD’s word for it. I have given her the name and number of the librarian I spoke with and she has the forwarded email. You, yourself, are free to call either Vital Records or the Honolulu Advertiser and ask questions about how birth certificates and birth announcements were handled in 1961. (And more) That’s a lot easier said than done. the child is born on Friday and by the following Friday, the Department of Vital Records has processed the birth certificate and put the notice out for the newspapers. If he was, ind
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: The Indonesian constitution. I think you are referring to the line about every citizen is guaranteed an education. That does not mean that ONLY citizens can go to Indonesian schools. It is a law designed to encourage universal education of Indonesian citizens, but it does not necessarily deprive visitors of education. You need something else to show that it does not allow non-citizens into Indonesian schools, and then IF that were true, people could still send their kids to Indonesian schools by claiming that the kids were citizens even if they were not. Add this to the fact that the Indonesian embassy says that Obama was never a citizen. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "Foreigners may not attend a public school in Indonesia... now or then." (1) Who told you this? Did you get it from some authority like the Indonesian government or an Indonesian Law? If so, please show this. (2) Even if there were such a law, which I doubt, it would always be possible for a person who was not an Indonesian citizen to attend a public school in Indonesia IF HE LIED AND CLAIMED TO BE AN INDONESIAN CITIZEN EVEN IF HE WASN'T. (That and a little bribery will go far.) (4) If the Indonesian government says "he was never a citizen" means that you have no credible evidence that he was ever an Indonesian citizen. The school thing does not prove anything, since if there was a law it could be violated. (5) If you don't believe me on the Indonesian Embassy, call them. Otherwise, get over the Indonesian citizenship thing. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: Just like with bank books, if and when someone challenges a balance, then there should be some verification process. The bankbooks I am referring to had printed entries, which were updated each time you made a deposit at the bank. To be sure, they could be forged, but there is no question of Obama COLB being forged. In any case, if there was a question about how much money was in the account, the depositor could call the bank, identify herself, and have the clerk read the balance to the person who needs to know about the credit status. This was effectively done in Obama's case when the two officials in Hawaii looked into Obama's file and said that there was an original birth certificate in the file. NO, it was not a Kenyan birth certificate, or a late birth certificate that could have been altered. It was an ordinary Hawaiian birth certificate showing that he was born in Hawaii. How can we know? Because of what they did not do, which was to launch an investigation of how he got a COLB saying "born in Hawaii" if he was born somewhere else than Hawaii. The COLB is the state's official statement as to certain important facts of birth. It is the only Hawaiian birth document that Hawaii issues to people who ask for their birth certificates, and it is accepted by the US State Department as proof of birth in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: 'her birth is registered in three countries.. the US, Germany, and Costa Rica. If you pull the Maricopa County, Az. copy it seems that she was indeed born there there is NO information that says otherwise." How can I comment about the AZ birth certificate? If it actually says on it "born in Arizona" and is not just an AZ birth certificate without a place listed on it, it is a legal document that can be used to show that she was born in the USA. But, you did not say that the AZ certificate actually says on it "born in AZ." There are Hawaiian COLBs issued to people born outside of Hawaii, but when this occurs the COLBs say the right place of birth. Now, as to the two other countries where she has birth documents. IF the party that ran in opposition to your daughter knew about these, they can tell the people during the election, and bring a suit saying that she is not eligible, based on the evidence. However, IF the AZ birth certificate said "born in AZ" and there was no evidence that she was born anywhere else, then the AZ certificate would be adequate to prove her birth in AZ. Does it say "born in AZ?" If so, what city? Turning to Obama. His COLB says "born in Hawaii." In fact, it says: "Location of Birth: Honolulu." And there is NO evidence that he was born anywhere else. The grandmother tape does not show this. She actually says that he was born in Hawaii. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: 'registration can take place for up to a year after birth." But Obama's registration did not take place a year after his birth. It took place within four days of his birth, and the notices in the newspapers, which were generated by documents from Hawaii's department of vital statistics, were in the newspapers ten days after the birth. The law on late registration does not apply to Obama. The COLB is a summary of the original birth certificate. Many states issue computer- generated summaries, and they are perfectly legal. There is no way that Obama could have been born in Kenya and receive a Hawaii COLB saying "born in Hawaii." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: The premise is wrong. In HSS 303 the requirements for info to be placed on the COLB (which is NOT a legal document for claiming "natural status" for state services to "natives") are birth "registration" (NOT live birth) in Hawaii. This is why ONLY the vault copy will do. It requires and will list the doctors signature and affadavit of birth. I'm unable to answer completely because I do not know the exact reference. Please let me know the full name of the act and its complete number. Usually Hawaiian legislation goes by HRS number. But, I think you are referring by "natives" to native Hawaiians, who for special Homelands services require proof of their race. DHHL, which administers that program, says it--like all the other Hawaiian departments--will accept the COLB for proof of birth in Hawaii. Obama, not being of native Hawaiian race, and not applying for special homelands services, does not require anything more than the COLB. And, the Department of Health tells me, that he--like everyone else who asks for a birth certificate in Hawaii--is sent only the COLB, not a copy of the original. So how do applicants for Hawaiian race status prove their status? If they have the original birth certificates issued to their parents at the time of birth, they use that. If they have lost them, they have to apply to the Department of Health like everyone else. They get only the COLB, the Department of Health tells me. Then what do they do? They go to the Department of Hawaiian Homelands, which tells me that it will accept the COLB as a starting point and search for other records to prove the Hawaiian race of the applicant. I think this is what you are referring to. If not, let me know. However, when you say: 'This is why ONLY the vault copy will do. It requires and will list the doctors signature and affadavit of birth." I fail to see what you are getting at. The COLB is an official certification that the vault copy exists and has the facts listed on the COLB. It is like a bankbook. Remember bankbooks? Well, if not, they were little books with your latest amount of money in the bank listed. If you had to prove to someone, to establish credit say, that you had a certain amount of assets, you only had to show your bankbook. You did not have to take the money out of the bank to show it. Similarly, the COLB certifies the information in the file. You do not have to take the original out (and they won't let you anyway). The COLB carries the state's guarantee that what is contained on the COLB is exactly what is in the files with regards to the facts listed. The key fact in this situation is Obama's birth in Hawaii, which the COLB demonstrates. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
No doubt, the "Obama Indonesian Passport" story has many inaccuracies, (from both sides of the aisle) all of which stems from President Obama refusing to produce his original birth certificate, There used to be a thing called a bankbook. A bankbook showed how much money you had in the bank. You did not have to take cash out of the bank and show it to people to prove that you had money. All you had to do was show the bankbook. This is the same principle behind the Certificate of Live Birth. The Certificate is the state of Hawaii’s official certification of the facts in Obamas’ file. The essential fact is that Obama was born in Hawaii. To say that you do not believe this is to say that you do not believe Hawaii. But, in fact, the officials in Hawaii looked into the file and said that they confirmed that there was an original birth certificate in the file. They did not say, because of the states’ privacy law, that the original birth certificate also said “born in Hawaii.” But it must have. Why? Because if there was anything in the file to indicate that Obama was born anywhere else than Hawaii, the certification would be wrong, and it would be the responsibility of the officials to point that out, to launch an investigation, and since their statement was before the election, to alert the voters. At the very least, they could not look into the file, and give the impression that it was perfectly all right. But they did. Why? Because it WAS perfectly all right. Then why doesn’t Obama show it? (1) Show it to whom, please? Are you suggesting that he post it on- line, where people could claim that the image had been forged? (2) Who is asking to see it? Is it the head of the Republican Party? Is it John McCain? Is it a court? No, it is a group of bloggers, most of whom voted against Obama and some of whom believe that he was born in Kenya (when his paternal grandmother says that he was born in Hawaii, and an official document shows that he was born in Hawaii). (3) So showing another document would at the most make a group of Obama enemies happy. (4) It is unnecessary to show an additional document. The Certification proves that he was born in Hawaii the same way that a bankbook was proof that you had X amount of money in the bank. (5) The Certification of Live Birth is the only birth document that Hawaii sends out to people who ask for their birth certificates these days, and it is perfectly legal (and it cannot legally say “born in Hawaii” for someone who was born other than in Hawaii. Your next comment was “Instead, President Obama and the DNC have chosen to spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars defending against over 42 federal lawsuits, and hundreds of State lawsuits challenging his Constitutional ability to be President.” Most of the lawsuits were before the election, asking that the election be stopped or Obama taken off the ballot. Some were after the election, asking that it not be certified. I cannot find a single case that ONLY asks to see Obama’s birth certificate, except for the Andy Martin case in Hawaii, which was against the state of Hawaii, and Obama’s lawyers may have sat in, but did not play a major role. In that case, the issue was whether Hawaii had the right to keep the birth files private, which they won at the first level and at the first appeal. I believe that Martin is still suing. Could Obama stop the Martin suit by merely giving Martin his original birth certificate? Perhaps, but that would halt a case that can strengthen the right of privacy over birth records. Perhaps not, however, because Hawaii sends out only the Certificate of Live Birth. Only that document, so unless Obama has his original birth certificate from the time he was born (saved by his family, of course) and has not mislaid it, all that he can show is what Hawaii sent him. Would Hawaii send him the original if he asked for it? Maybe, but why should he ask for it. As for the hundreds of thousands of dollars, as I said, the vast amount of that was to defeat lawsuits that wanted to stop the election or stop certification. I have also seen that in the latest case, Keyes v Bowen, Obama’s lawyer is doing the job Pro Bono. The rest of the money came out of campaign contributions, so you don’t have to worry about taxpayer money. Finally, as to the hundreds of thousands of dollars, this sum—if true— would be about the same amount as Obama’s opponents would be spending, wouldn’t it? And isn’t Obama delighted that his opponents are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars? Sure he is. Re Pakistan not being a tourist mecca. So what? The issue was whether it was legal and possible for US citizens to go to Pakistan on US passports, and it was. I do not think that Indonesia has to proclaim that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia for a small group of right-wing bloggers who think that he was. If the bloggers are unwilling to call the Indonesian Embassy to find out. Or, if they call the Indonesian Embassy and
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
This article shows that it was easy to go to Pakistan, and it was even a tourist site. The article does not show that there were flights by Pakistan International Airlines from JFK to Karachi. I saw that somewhere else, but I can assure you it is true, and at the end of the article you will see that there was an office of Pakistan International on Fifth Avenue. Let me stress that it was you who insisted, even though I showed that the Indonesian Embassy says that Obama had never had an Indonesian passport, that because of the trip to Pakistan, he had to have had an Indonesian passport. No, he could get there on a US passport, and did because he never had an Indonesian Passport, as the Indonesian Embassy says. LAHORE, A SURVIVOR WITH A BITTERSWEET HISTORY By BARBARA CROSSETTE; BARBARA CROSSETTE IS AN ASSISTANT NEWS EDITOR OF THE NEW YORK TIMES. New York Times Published: June 14, 1981 History has dealt the lovers of Lahore more than their share of broken hearts. This graceful and cultured city, with a history that stretches by some accounts back into the days of the epic Ramayana, passed through many conquering hands - Hindu, Mogul, Persian, Afghan, Sikh and British -on the way to becoming an intellectual center of the Indian subcontinent, only to be relegated with the partition of British India to the status of a provincial Pakistani capital. Over the years monuments rose, monuments fell and charges flew: Sikhs decried Muslim damage to their shrines, Muslims pointed to desecrations perpetrated by Sikhs. A generation of Hindu and Sikh Punjabis, forced in l947 to flee bloody religious violence, still mourns the loss of a city they can longer visit but can never forget, and to which they will always belong. ''Lahore,'' the elderly Sikh photographer in Chandigarh said in a low, choked voice as he held up to the light the negatives I had brought to him for printing. ''My god, you have been in Lahore. Tell me, how is it now?'' Lahore is fine. Lahore is a survivor, and all of its bittersweet history is here for the tourist to see, in the tombs and mosques, palaces and fortresses, museums, gardens and parks that make this one of the most fascinating and pleasurable of the subcontinent's attractions. Pakistan - Lahore is its second-largest city - has restored and preserved historical buildings while developing a clean, modern town around them. Lahore is quiet now: The reputation for carousing that Rudyard Kipling touched on in his brief autobiography, ''Something of Myself,'' has been obliterated by the martial-law government's Islamization program. There is no more public drinking in Lahore (or anywhere in Pakistan), and there are fewer women in public places. The Soviet presence in Afghanistan has closed the overland route from Kabul to Delhi and Calcutta, reducing the number of foreign travelers. The war between Iran and Iraq has further deterred tourists. So lovers of Kipling, admirers of Shah Jehan's architecture or followers of Guru Arjan Dev may find they will not be elbowed out of the places they came to see. I went to Lahore after several months in India's Punjab, where it seemed no one over the age of 40 was without stories to tell and reminiscences to share about this city. Resisting the blandishments of the new international hotels advertising on billboards along the road into town from the border crossing at Wagah, my husband, David, and I settled in at Faletti's, Lahore's once-grand hotel where pre- independence society congregated. It was at Faletti's that much of the rump of British colonial society in the Punjab danced partition away to the music of a genteel orchestra while neighborhoods burned around them. Faletti's, now run by the Pakistan Tourism Development Corporation, is still a comfortable, rambling place separated from busy Egerton Road by a quiet lawn. Its rooms, arrayed along verandas, are large, though the furnishings are worn with the kind of age that lacks interest. The large dining room - the proverbial palm court - was never open during our stay in January, and all guests were sent to the small and fairly dismal coffee shop for meals. Breakfast there was fine, but for other meals we frequently walked around the corner to the Lahore Hilton, where the menus in both coffee shop and dining room were more varied and the ambience a good deal cheerier. Still, Faletti's was an experience we would happily repeat. Like Flashmann's in Rawalpindi and Dean's in Peshawar, Faletti's has a feeling all its own: life is lazy among the potted plants; the roomservice staff seemed more like retainers than employees. There was always a cup of tea or coffee within minutes of asking. Faletti's was also handy to airline offices, shopping and restaurants. We did much of our exploring of the city on foot, supplemented by three-wheeled, scooter-powered rickshaws when it rained or horse-drawn tongas - two- wheeled carriages in which passengers sit facing backwards - when we were tired but not in a hu
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re:"back in the early part of summer, 2008, Wayne Masden, with "On Line Journal" (and funded by the RNC) went to Mombassa Kenya where he found a Certificate registering the birth of President Obama at Maternity Hospital, to the father, a Kenyan citizen and to the Mother, a U.S. Citizen." IF he did, as Berg says, Masden is not confirming it. This is his Web site and a search for all the references to Kenya: http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/search?searchtext=kenya Do you see any reference to a trip to Kenya? Do you see any reference to a trip to Monbassa? Do you see any reference to a maternity hospital? Do you see any reference to a birth certificate? Here is his e-mail address: wmredi...@waynemadsenreport.com You might ask him if he traveled to kenya and found a birth certificate. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: "Just as important, it is very unlikely, most experts say that it would have been impossible, for President Obama to have traveled to Pakistan on an Indonesan Passport. At the time, travel by U.S. Citizens to Pakistan was forbidden. Pakistan was under martial law in 1981 and certain undesirables… Christians, Jews, and Americans… were prohibited from entering into the country." Who told you this? At the time Pakistan Airlines had flights from JFK airport to Karachi. It was under martial law, but that was the normal state of affairs in Pakistan. It was peaceful, so tourists were welcomed, and there was no distinction about religion. I even saw a travel article written in 1981 saying how interesting it was to visit Lahore. So, he traveled on a US passport, since he never had an Indonesian passport. Oh, I see that you say it would have "been impossible, for President Obama to have traveled to Pakistan on an Indonesan Passport." Yes, in the sense that if he did not have an Indonesian passport, it would be impossible to travel on one. As for Pakistan not allowing Indonesians to enter Pakistan, I doubt it, but who cares? The bottom line is he never had an Indonesian passport, which is easy to confirm or deny by simply calling the Indonesian embassy. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Well...Is He, or Isn’t He?
Re: “What is not established, and what is critically important, is what passport he used during that trip. There are only three possibilities: Obama could have traveled under a U.S. passport… a passport first issued when he and his mother moved from Hawaii to Indonesia in 1967.” Answer: He traveled on a US passport because he never was an Indonesian citizen and never received an Indonesian passport. This can be proven for certain by simply calling the Indonesian Embassy in Washington. (202) 775 – 5200. He never had a British passport. This can be proven by simply calling the British Embassy in Washington: (202) 588-6500. Re: “Unfortunately for Obama, in the present circumstance, Pakistan was under martial law in 1981 and certain undesirables… Christians, Jews, and Americans… were prohibited from entering the country. Pakistan was on the U.S. State Department’s “no travel” list, making a U.S. passport no more valuable than an empty chewing gum wrapper at the Karachi Port of Entry.” This is all totally wrong. Absurdly wrong. Laughably wrong. In 1981 Pakistan Air Lines had flights from New York’s Kennedy Airport to Karachi. And I have seen travel articles recommending visits to charming old Lahore, which was peaceful and welcomed tourists. Pakistan was a US ally and was not on the State Department’s “no travel” list. Pakistan was under martial law, but it was one of those countries that was practically always under martial law, like Thailand and, for a time, Greece, and the State Department didn’t worry about US citizens visiting it because the martial law kept things fairly peaceful. And Pakistan certainly did not have regulations keeping US tourists out. Re: “born in Kenya, not in Hawaii... as his paternal grandmother, a Kenyan half-brother, and a Kenyan half-sister insist...” Answer. He was not born in Kenya. He was born in Hawaii, and his paternal grandmother said he was born in Hawaii. This can be demonstrated simply by listening to the complete grandmother tape. To hear the full recording of the Obama grandmother interview, go to: ?” http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/independent-grandmother-transcript/ (Click on full Sarah Obama Tape.) There are quite a few recordings and transcripts that cut the tape at the five minute mark. It is important to go to the full recording, which runs about nine minutes. You might ask yourself why anyone would want to cut the tape at five minutes when the answer to the question WHERE WAS HE BORN is after five minutes. The answer, sadly, is that they are not anxious for people to make up their own minds. Regarding the alleged Kenyan relatives who said that Obama was born in Kenya, but this cannot be proven. Only WND has said this, and WND has not shown the interviews to anyone. There are no physical documents showing that he was born in Kenya, but the theorists explain this by saying that the Kenya government is part of the conspiracy and that it has blocked access to those documents. The very fact that Kenya had blocked access to certain documents would be possible to prove or disprove. WND’s claim that the files were blocked has not been substantiated by any news agency other than WND. There is no copies of his half-brother or half-sister saying that he was born in Kenya, only WND said it at one time, and even WND has not quoted it since. On the other hand, Obama’s uncle, the brother of his father, said that Obama was not in Kenya until 1987. For which the reference is: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/obama-uncle-confirms-not-born-in-kenya/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
