RE: (OT)Ham Radio + SMTP (was Re: How to restrict encrypted email)

[Michael Fox]

> My understanding is that packet radio has been allowed in part of the
> HAM band and in part of the Marine SSB band for quite a long time.  
>
> Curtis

That's correct Curtis.  In fact, worldwide electronic mail was possible with
packet and the worldwide BBS network long before commercial Internet email
was available.  And we've been using Postfix to relay between our packet
network and Internet email for years.

AX.25 doesn't really have much to do with it.  It's a reasonable choice for
a link layer protocol for operation over a low-speed, lossy (radio) medium.
That makes it useful in the HF/VHF/UHF bands where channel bandwidth is
limited.  In fact, we run SMTP over AX.25 all the time.

It is really the channel speed, not the link layer protocol, that limits
message size and the use of native email clients and email client protocols
like IMAP, since they are far more chatty than the packet radio protocol for
sending/receiving messages.

But hams also have frequency allocations in the microwave (read WiFi) bands
and can run just as fast as any other commercial product there.  Those high
speed links enable the use of native email clients.  And that drove my
questions about controlling TLS and encryption.

I guess the ON-topic part of this is understanding the reason behind the
need to control the use of TLS and encryption on a client-by-client or
IP-address or other basis.  It's very real and very current, and not just
for "old" or "legacy" stuff.

But, before Wietse kicks me off the list ;-)  please let's get back to
Postfix.  Folks can contact me off list about amateur radio if desired at
n6mef at mefox dot org.

Michael
N6MEF

Re: (OT)Ham Radio + SMTP (was Re: How to restrict encrypted email)

[Curtis Villamizar]

In message <20160716192156.09767350@kendramatic>
jdebert writes:
> 
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:42:44 -0400
> Yuval Levy  wrote:
>  
> > It is indeed a matter of interpretation, and I would like to see the
> > FCC rules text.  Questions:
> > (1) how do they define "encrypted"?
>  
> The rules and regulations are very clear on what is permitted. They do
> not need to define anything else.
>  
> > (2) on who is the obligation imposed?
>  
> On all licensed amateur radio operators.
>  
> > 
> > Imposing the onus on the SMTP server operator is like imposing the
> > onus on gas stations for fueling vehicles used in criminal
> > endeavors.  It does not fly because the gas station can't possibly
> > know what the user will use the vehicle for, other than (probably)
> > driving.
> > 
> > By the definition of encryption, an SMTP server operator can't
> > possibly know that a message is encrypted unless the end-user is kind
> > enough to say so, e.g. in the MIME headers.
> > 
> > 
> > > Don't let them push you down this slippery slope.  If you are
> > > really worried about it, call the FCC or a private attorney and get
> > > a solid interpretation.
> > 
> > If I was the SMTP server operator and they came to me, I'd tell them
> > to take a walk.
>  
> The encryption ban dates almost from the earliest days of ham radio. It
> has included unencrypted digital communications formats as well. It has
> been extremely restrictive until recently. The use of ASCII was
> prohibited until recently, for example. Violation of the regulations
> can result in severe fines and forfeiture of license and equipment.
>  
> These are regulations, not laws. There is no due process as there
> may be in criminal cases. It's a completely different legal universe.
> Enforcement of regulations is administrative and not dealt with in the
> courts, until criminal enforcement is necessary.
>  
> Please review part 97 of the FCC regulations, which pertains to amateur
> radio operation. For the FCC's authority, that would be in Title 47 of
> the United States Code.


Way OT but ...

Perhaps check out https://www.tapr.org/ or http://www.arrl.org/ .

My understanding is that packet radio has been allowed in part of the
HAM band and in part of the Marine SSB band for quite a long time.  It
is extremely slow.  In HAM one purpose (as in the purpose of HAM
itself) is experimentation (within constraints) and technical
innovations.  In Marine SSB the purpose is largely safety as it is the
most effient way to get relatively error free detailed weather data
when hundreds or thousands of miles from shore (and one way, though
not the preferred way, to get assistance at sea).

Maybe more technically problematic than the restriction on encryption
is the restriction that the exchange cannot be in any way commercial
and if personal should be extremely brief.  That's a tough filter to
implement.  OTOH - encryption might get you in much deeper trouble.

btw- Unfortunately, a long time ago X.25 was picked.  This has sort of
kept packet radio in the digital stone ages.  BSD dropped X.25 a
decade ago but Linux still has code (marked experimental and does not
seem to be supported).  The ITU has pull in a lot of places so X.25 is
mandated for packet radio in a lot of places.

That said I'm no expert on this (or much of anything :)

Curtis

(OT)Ham Radio + SMTP (was Re: How to restrict encrypted email)

[jdebert]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:42:44 -0400
Yuval Levy  wrote:

> It is indeed a matter of interpretation, and I would like to see the
> FCC rules text.  Questions:
> (1) how do they define "encrypted"?

The rules and regulations are very clear on what is permitted. They do
not need to define anything else.

> (2) on who is the obligation imposed?

On all licensed amateur radio operators.

> 
> Imposing the onus on the SMTP server operator is like imposing the
> onus on gas stations for fueling vehicles used in criminal
> endeavors.  It does not fly because the gas station can't possibly
> know what the user will use the vehicle for, other than (probably)
> driving.
> 
> By the definition of encryption, an SMTP server operator can't
> possibly know that a message is encrypted unless the end-user is kind
> enough to say so, e.g. in the MIME headers.
> 
> 
> > Don't let them push you down this slippery slope.  If you are
> > really worried about it, call the FCC or a private attorney and get
> > a solid interpretation.
> 
> If I was the SMTP server operator and they came to me, I'd tell them
> to take a walk.

The encryption ban dates almost from the earliest days of ham radio. It
has included unencrypted digital communications formats as well. It has
been extremely restrictive until recently. The use of ASCII was
prohibited until recently, for example. Violation of the regulations
can result in severe fines and forfeiture of license and equipment.

These are regulations, not laws. There is no due process as there
may be in criminal cases. It's a completely different legal universe.
Enforcement of regulations is administrative and not dealt with in the
courts, until criminal enforcement is necessary.

Please review part 97 of the FCC regulations, which pertains to amateur
radio operation. For the FCC's authority, that would be in Title 47 of
the United States Code.