Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[Tom Lee]

> You are correct that a battery can in fact be damaged by to much amperage.
> But this damage is only because it wasn't trickle charged (low amperage) but
> instead quick charged (high amperage). But then again that doesn't stop many
> manufactures from making such chargers. As far as the diode, you half
> correct. A diode can in fact be damaged by over amperage since it's a
> component that does run inline of a wire. But the truth of that is only if it
> flows that much. Now to flow that much current there must be something
> drawing that much on the other end and it's overloading it's ability.
>
> So, lets make an example, a simple circuit if you will. Imagine an AC power
> supply, say supplying a 12v 2amp signal. On both power leads a diode (cathode
> and anode pointing in opposite directions on either pole) and a LED in
> parallel to the supply (hope that makes sense), anyway, if the LED is rated
> at a minute 50ma, it's using that full 50ma supplied by the supply even
> though the supply is capable of flowing 2A. So what will the diodes see,
> exactly, 50ma across both. Ok, lets say the diode has a 1A threshold and
> instead of a LED you use a 2A lamp, then the diodes will see a 2A load which
> after time will burn them out. So anyway, I've still made my point. Amperage
> pull will only be what is used, not what the battery or supply can produce.
> And as long as you design your circuit correctly (with the correct parts for
> the demands), you won't have to deal with blown diodes for example.
>
>Jake

I don't want to clog this list with a lengthy tutorial on electricity, but I also
want to save you from trashing any more Powerbooks. It's my occupation to educate,
so here goes one last try (sorry, listers; I can't help it!).

You're confused about several fundamental concepts, but let's just look at one.
Yes, if you have two power supplies, each, say, 12V, but rated for different
maximum currents, the same load connected to each will in fact draw the same
current. That's what you probably meant by devices drawing what they will. That's
because the current drawn by an element is a function of the voltage you apply
across it (as in ohm's law, which applies to resistors), not of the label printed
on the side of the power supply indicating its maximum current capability. All
absolutely true, and all *absolutely irrelevant* to why you (probably) fried your
Powerbook. Unlike this example, you *didn't* apply the rated voltage. You in fact
applied a much *bigger* voltage.  That's a different situation altogether. And
then your Powerbook stopped working after a bit. No surprise there.

It's okay not to have a very good grasp of electrical fundamentals (nobody knows
everything, and electronics sure is more complicated than a lot of other
subjects), but it's less ok that you think you understand much more than you
actually do (to the point that you want to debate about it). Please think about
why it is that power supplies come in a variety of voltages. It has to do with the
fact that electrical devices in fact don't "know" what the "right" current is for
them. Do think about that the next time you risk blowing up a perfectly fine
Powerbook. :-( And please don't test out your theories by comparing the buzz you
get on your tongue with a 9V battery, versus what you get with 120V line power!

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Center for Integrated Systems, CIS-205
420 Via Palou Mall
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
http://www-smirc.stanford.edu
650-725-3709 voice, -3383 fax



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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[martin]

>Nah, I don't buy it.  If you supply an over-rated voltage to digital
>electronics, you have a very strong chance of burning them out.
>
>Try sticking a light bulb on a very high voltage - the bulb burns
>out.  The current through the filament was strong enough to literally
>burn the filament.  The same is true with an LED in series with a
>variable resistance resistor - turn down the resistance and the LED
>gets brighter.


etc etc

actually, he was talking about CURRENT, not voltage, and he was 
correct: a circuit will only draw what it needs (barring a short or 
faulty component) from a power supply, so it is safe to hook up a 
device requiring say 1A at a given voltage, to a power supply capable 
of delivering 10A at the same voltage. The circuit will only draw 1A 
, and no harm is done.

This no longer applies IF you have say, a shorted capacitor in the 
power supply for instance, but the unfortunate results of that 
scenario would be similar regardless of the current supplied. 
Well-designed power supplies incorporate a "crowbar" circuit, which 
will limit the current, or shut off the supply in the event of a 
short.

I have used 170 and 190 supplies to power my 145, and have had no 
problems. I also designed a power supply for my car, which outputs 
7.5VDC at 3.0A (regulated and nicely filtered) for my 145, from the 
nasty spikey variable voltage provided by the alternator. This works 
very well, and testing with an ammeter revealed that the 145 draws 
around 2.7A at startup, which quickly drops to an average of about 
1.75A (with the HD on, screen backlighting on, and the battery 
charging). I even incorporated a simple diode bridge that allows my 
supply polarity to be accidentally reversed without damage!

You're right, of course, about voltage!  Supplying a higher-than 
rated voltage WILL fry your circuit.

m


PS anyone interested in battery-rebuilding or Powerbook supplies can 
view my lengthy posts on this for detailed instructions, in the 
archives (umm, I believe that was about a year ago), and the Pickle 
kindly reposted some of this on his site as well.

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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[Andrew Kershaw]

>So, lets make an example, a simple circuit if you will. Imagine an AC power
>supply, say supplying a 12v 2amp signal. On both power leads a diode (cathode
>and anode pointing in opposite directions on either pole) and a LED in
>parallel to the supply (hope that makes sense), anyway, if the LED is rated
>at a minute 50ma, it's using that full 50ma supplied by the supply even
>though the supply is capable of flowing 2A. So what will the diodes see,
>exactly, 50ma across both. Ok, lets say the diode has a 1A threshold and
>instead of a LED you use a 2A lamp, then the diodes will see a 2A load which
>after time will burn them out. So anyway, I've still made my point. Amperage
>pull will only be what is used, not what the battery or supply can produce.

No, that's just not true.  Let's simplify further, and be more 
relevant by talking about direct current, as that is what all 
computers use (except for certain parts like LCD backlights).

V = IR.  LEDs have a minimum "breakdown" current or voltage, if you 
will, beneath which they will not function.  But if you supply a 5V 
emf to a simple circuit with a 20ma LED, your current is limited by 
the resistance of the LED (and the source of the EMF), not how much 
current it "draws."  Nothing "draws" current - all current is driven 
by voltage differences.  Since you have a 5V voltage difference 
across the LED, the current will be I = V/R where V = 5 and R is the 
resistance of the component (LED).

Nah, I don't buy it.  If you supply an over-rated voltage to digital 
electronics, you have a very strong chance of burning them out.

Try sticking a light bulb on a very high voltage - the bulb burns 
out.  The current through the filament was strong enough to literally 
burn the filament.  The same is true with an LED in series with a 
variable resistance resistor - turn down the resistance and the LED 
gets brighter.  LEDs are fairly robust, though, so it takes a heck of 
a lot of current to burn one out.  But you are wrong about them only 
"drawing" up to their nominal rating.

Now in the case of direct current supplied by a battery, the current 
is limited by the sum of the battery's internal resistance and the 
resistance of the rest of the components on the circuit.

This is why fuses are used in nearly all sensitive circuits - if 
there is a short, by your reasoning, the short "draws" more current, 
but the current is limited to whatever the lowest current "draw" 
upstream of the short is.  Rather, the short creates a scenario where 
the resistance is significantly lowered.  Any components upstream can 
be burned out since the current will be higher.  (This is neglecting 
the problems associated with dumping too much current down too thin a 
pipe - i.e. FIRE).

Try it yourself, I dare you.

Peace,
Drew

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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[RaceCivicR]

You are correct that a battery can in fact be damaged by to much amperage. 
But this damage is only because it wasn't trickle charged (low amperage) but 
instead quick charged (high amperage). But then again that doesn't stop many 
manufactures from making such chargers. As far as the diode, you half 
correct. A diode can in fact be damaged by over amperage since it's a 
component that does run inline of a wire. But the truth of that is only if it 
flows that much. Now to flow that much current there must be something 
drawing that much on the other end and it's overloading it's ability. 

So, lets make an example, a simple circuit if you will. Imagine an AC power 
supply, say supplying a 12v 2amp signal. On both power leads a diode (cathode 
and anode pointing in opposite directions on either pole) and a LED in 
parallel to the supply (hope that makes sense), anyway, if the LED is rated 
at a minute 50ma, it's using that full 50ma supplied by the supply even 
though the supply is capable of flowing 2A. So what will the diodes see, 
exactly, 50ma across both. Ok, lets say the diode has a 1A threshold and 
instead of a LED you use a 2A lamp, then the diodes will see a 2A load which 
after time will burn them out. So anyway, I've still made my point. Amperage 
pull will only be what is used, not what the battery or supply can produce. 
And as long as you design your circuit correctly (with the correct parts for 
the demands), you won't have to deal with blown diodes for example.

   Jake

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote...>

There are many unfortunate statements above ("simple electronics 
specifies..." is so wrong that it isn't even wrong!). Short story: There are 
many, many components in electronics which behave nonlinearly. Even a 
battery, if

charged with seemingly small overvoltages, can exhibit catastrophic 
behaviors. A diode is a device where, if you apply a mere extra 60mV (that's 
0.06 volts) or so directly across it, the current can go up by a factor of 10!

It does not "know" what current it "needs", and will happily, destructively 
demonstrate that truth for you.


Another way to look at it: You applied nearly a 50% overvoltage. If it were a 
resistive load, the current would have gone up by ~1.5x, too, for a power 
increase to ~2x the nominal value -- that's a lot, even for a resistor.

But you weren't feeding a resistor -- it's a much more complicated thing!


--

Prof. Thomas H. Lee

Center for Integrated Systems, CIS-205

420 Via Palou Mall

Stanford University

Stanford, CA 94305-4070

http://www-smirc.stanford.edu

650-725-3709 ph, -3383 fax

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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[Tom Lee]

> Thanks for the reply. The rated input voltage I was supplying was a bit
> higher than what it was designed for (states on the Powerbook 7.5V 2A max)
> and I was giving it just under 10v (using a battery pack that supplied a 3A
> max supply). Normally semiconductors are a bit more tolerant to a bit more
> voltage but you might be correct. As far as the amperage deal. Simple
> electronics specifies that a unit will only consume as much current as it
> needs. So supplying 10A of power would net the same results as supplying 2A.
> There are a few exceptions to the rule, such as a AMM meter which is set
> inline of a lead. But for the most part components won't be damaged by
> excessive current.

There are many unfortunate statements above ("simple electronics specifies..." is so 
wrong that it isn't even wrong!). Short story: There are many, many components in 
electronics which behave nonlinearly. Even a battery, if
charged with seemingly small overvoltages, can exhibit catastrophic behaviors. A diode 
is a device where, if you apply a mere extra 60mV (that's 0.06 volts) or so directly 
across it, the current can go up by a factor of 10!
It does not "know" what current it "needs", and will happily, destructively 
demonstrate that truth for you.

Another way to look at it: You applied nearly a 50% overvoltage. If it were a 
resistive load, the current would have gone up by ~1.5x, too, for a power increase to 
~2x the nominal value -- that's a lot, even for a resistor.
But you weren't feeding a resistor -- it's a much more complicated thing!

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Center for Integrated Systems, CIS-205
420 Via Palou Mall
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
http://www-smirc.stanford.edu
650-725-3709 ph, -3383 fax




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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[Justin Stewart]

I would like the battery, seeing as I am justin
getting a PB 150, it would be great to have if it
charges that much!
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. The rated input voltage I was
> supplying was a bit 
> higher than what it was designed for (states on the
> Powerbook 7.5V 2A max) 
> and I was giving it just under 10v (using a battery
> pack that supplied a 3A 
> max supply). Normally semiconductors are a bit more
> tolerant to a bit more 
> voltage but you might be correct. As far as the
> amperage deal. Simple 
> electronics specifies that a unit will only consume
> as much current as it 
> needs. So supplying 10A of power would net the same
> results as supplying 2A. 
> There are a few exceptions to the rule, such as a
> AMM meter which is set 
> inline of a lead. But for the most part components
> won't be damaged by 
> excessive current.
> 
> Anyway, I'll tear it down again and go component by
> component testing to see 
> if any are bad. Maybe the extra voltage did fry the
> computer. If it did, 
> anyone interested in parts? I'm moving in the 2
> weeks and need to clear out 
> some of the stuff here, so if I can't save it, it
> might be best to get parts 
> into the hands of people who can use them. I'm still
> gonna see if I can get 
> it working again but if I can't anyone wanting parts
> write me. Just cover 
> shipping and a little for gas to get me to the post
> office (ya, I own a 
> Honda, but it's more a racecar than a gas friendly
> compact now). 
> 
> As far as the details, it's a 170 with a 140 screen,
> 4megs ram, 40meg HD and 
> even the modem option. Again, everything worked
> until I turned it off. I just 
> tested the battery and after a long night of
> charging, seems to be holding a 
> 7v charge after sitting all day. Hope I don't get
> torn a new one for not 
> listing this on the LemSwap, but this is just in
> case I can't get it working 
> again and only seems fair to hook you guys up on it
> first!
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote...>
> 
> You should start with resetting the PMU...
> 
> 
>
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58416&SaveKCWindowURL=http%3A%2
> 
>
F%2Fkbase.info.apple.com%2Fcgi-bin%2FWebObjects%2Fkbase.woa%2Fwa%2FSaveKCToHom
> 
>
ePage&searchMode=Assisted&kbhost=kbase.info.apple.com&showButton=false&randomV
> 
>
alue=100&showSurvey=false&sessionID=anonymous|164758369
> 
> 
> if it doesn't work then, i'd have to say that it may
> 
> have been too much voltage (the battery to the 1xx
> 
> except 190 was 6.75v) and requires a mere 15w of
> 
> power,
> 
> 
> Warning: Using an AC adapter that produces more than
> 
> 19 W with a PowerBook 100 or 150 computer will
> damage
> 
> the computer's logic board.
> 
> 
> that is from apple's site, it may only apply to the
> 
> 150 and 100, but if the battery(i imagine it would)
> 
> had such a grossly excess amount of power it may
> also
> 
> to damage your 170.
> 
> 
> Guess what, I don't even have my PowerBook yet and I
> 
> know this stuff, lol, i'm so excited. Can't wait to
> 
> get it.
> 
> -- 
> PowerBooks is sponsored by 
> and...
> 
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> | Enter To Win A |
>   -- Canon PowerShot Digital Cameras start at $299  
> |  Free iBook!   |
> 
>   Support Low End Mac
> 
> 
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> 
> To unsubscribe, email: 
> 
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> 
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> 
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>

> 
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> http://www.applelinks.com
> 


=
***Justin, your annoyance of the moment, ;-D
***1 - ZAGIFLAS
***2 - ZEEKYBOOGYDOOG
***3 - LEEGSNAGZIT
***The national debt is at times an ally, leaving the people to fend for themsleves, 
the national debt is at times an ally, leaving the people to fend for themselves, but 
then, THE PEOPLE FOUND OUT THE LEEE!
***The new AMD Claw-Hammer is far superior to the P4 and Intels 64 platform. Seeing 
that a 1.6Ghz is rated 3200+ it has 2X IPC. SUCK MY ^$@* INTEL! (Note, especially in 
3D, the Intel Rating is mostly underrated somewhat)

__
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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[RaceCivicR]

Thanks for the reply. The rated input voltage I was supplying was a bit 
higher than what it was designed for (states on the Powerbook 7.5V 2A max) 
and I was giving it just under 10v (using a battery pack that supplied a 3A 
max supply). Normally semiconductors are a bit more tolerant to a bit more 
voltage but you might be correct. As far as the amperage deal. Simple 
electronics specifies that a unit will only consume as much current as it 
needs. So supplying 10A of power would net the same results as supplying 2A. 
There are a few exceptions to the rule, such as a AMM meter which is set 
inline of a lead. But for the most part components won't be damaged by 
excessive current.

Anyway, I'll tear it down again and go component by component testing to see 
if any are bad. Maybe the extra voltage did fry the computer. If it did, 
anyone interested in parts? I'm moving in the 2 weeks and need to clear out 
some of the stuff here, so if I can't save it, it might be best to get parts 
into the hands of people who can use them. I'm still gonna see if I can get 
it working again but if I can't anyone wanting parts write me. Just cover 
shipping and a little for gas to get me to the post office (ya, I own a 
Honda, but it's more a racecar than a gas friendly compact now). 

As far as the details, it's a 170 with a 140 screen, 4megs ram, 40meg HD and 
even the modem option. Again, everything worked until I turned it off. I just 
tested the battery and after a long night of charging, seems to be holding a 
7v charge after sitting all day. Hope I don't get torn a new one for not 
listing this on the LemSwap, but this is just in case I can't get it working 
again and only seems fair to hook you guys up on it first!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote...>

You should start with resetting the PMU...


http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58416&SaveKCWindowURL=http%3A%2

F%2Fkbase.info.apple.com%2Fcgi-bin%2FWebObjects%2Fkbase.woa%2Fwa%2FSaveKCToHom

ePage&searchMode=Assisted&kbhost=kbase.info.apple.com&showButton=false&randomV

alue=100&showSurvey=false&sessionID=anonymous|164758369


if it doesn't work then, i'd have to say that it may

have been too much voltage (the battery to the 1xx

except 190 was 6.75v) and requires a mere 15w of

power,


Warning: Using an AC adapter that produces more than

19 W with a PowerBook 100 or 150 computer will damage

the computer's logic board.


that is from apple's site, it may only apply to the

150 and 100, but if the battery(i imagine it would)

had such a grossly excess amount of power it may also

to damage your 170.


Guess what, I don't even have my PowerBook yet and I

know this stuff, lol, i'm so excited. Can't wait to

get it.

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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[Andrew]

> Anyway, I never had a power supply for the thing so I fabricated 
> one from a 
> step down transformer which I normally used to give the battery a little 
> juice which allowed me about 5-10 minutes of fiddling time. But 
> this time I 
> tried using a 12v car battery to power it and it worked. The OS was all 
> screwed up so I did a fresh install of 7.5.5 and gave it a go to 
> actually use 
> it again. Ok, now here's the odd thing. Everything was working 
> great until I 
> shut it down. After I did, I could never get it started again. No 
> bong (or 
> death tone), no hard drive activity and the screen got these 
> weird bright red 
> lines across it (even though it's a 1-bit 140 monitor). It also 
> won't even 
> react unless I plug power to the back and put the battery in. Any idea's 
> guys? It would really be a shame to scrap it after all this time 
> and work, 
> thanks.

Blown fuse?  I think it is a fairly easy repair.
Andrew


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Re: Powerbook 170 acting funny

[Justin Stewart]

You should start with resetting the PMU...

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58416&SaveKCWindowURL=http%3A%2F%2Fkbase.info.apple.com%2Fcgi-bin%2FWebObjects%2Fkbase.woa%2Fwa%2FSaveKCToHomePage&searchMode=Assisted&kbhost=kbase.info.apple.com&showButton=false&randomValue=100&showSurvey=false&sessionID=anonymous|164758369

if it doesn't work then, i'd have to say that it may
have been too much voltage (the battery to the 1xx
except 190 was 6.75v) and requires a mere 15w of
power,

Warning: Using an AC adapter that produces more than
19 W with a PowerBook 100 or 150 computer will damage
the computer's logic board.

that is from apple's site, it may only apply to the
150 and 100, but if the battery(i imagine it would)
had such a grossly excess amount of power it may also
to damage your 170.

Guess what, I don't even have my PowerBook yet and I
know this stuff, lol, i'm so excited. Can't wait to
get it.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My oldest Powerbook, a 170 which I saved from scrap
> a bit back was a little 
> toy I played with when I got bored back in the day.
> Pretty much everything 
> didn't work. But after much time and effort the only
> things I could never get 
> working was the battery, trackball and the space
> bar. So after that it sat in 
> my room collecting dust until today when I pulled it
> out. 
> 
> Anyway, I never had a power supply for the thing so
> I fabricated one from a 
> step down transformer which I normally used to give
> the battery a little 
> juice which allowed me about 5-10 minutes of
> fiddling time. But this time I 
> tried using a 12v car battery to power it and it
> worked. The OS was all 
> screwed up so I did a fresh install of 7.5.5 and
> gave it a go to actually use 
> it again. Ok, now here's the odd thing. Everything
> was working great until I 
> shut it down. After I did, I could never get it
> started again. No bong (or 
> death tone), no hard drive activity and the screen
> got these weird bright red 
> lines across it (even though it's a 1-bit 140
> monitor). It also won't even 
> react unless I plug power to the back and put the
> battery in. Any idea's 
> guys? It would really be a shame to scrap it after
> all this time and work, 
> thanks.
> 
>Jake
> 
> -- 
> PowerBooks is sponsored by 
> and...
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>   Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com  
> | Enter To Win A |
>   -- Canon PowerShot Digital Cameras start at $299  
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***Justin, your annoyance of the moment, ;-D
***1 - ZAGIFLAS
***2 - ZEEKYBOOGYDOOG
***3 - LEEGSNAGZIT
***The national debt is at times an ally, leaving the people to fend for themsleves, 
the national debt is at times an ally, leaving the people to fend for themselves, but 
then, THE PEOPLE FOUND OUT THE LEEE!
***The new AMD Claw-Hammer is far superior to the P4 and Intels 64 platform. Seeing 
that a 1.6Ghz is rated 3200+ it has 2X IPC. SUCK MY ^$@* INTEL! (Note, especially in 
3D, the Intel Rating is mostly underrated somewhat)

__
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Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Powerbook 170 acting funny

[RaceCivicR]

My oldest Powerbook, a 170 which I saved from scrap a bit back was a little 
toy I played with when I got bored back in the day. Pretty much everything 
didn't work. But after much time and effort the only things I could never get 
working was the battery, trackball and the space bar. So after that it sat in 
my room collecting dust until today when I pulled it out. 

Anyway, I never had a power supply for the thing so I fabricated one from a 
step down transformer which I normally used to give the battery a little 
juice which allowed me about 5-10 minutes of fiddling time. But this time I 
tried using a 12v car battery to power it and it worked. The OS was all 
screwed up so I did a fresh install of 7.5.5 and gave it a go to actually use 
it again. Ok, now here's the odd thing. Everything was working great until I 
shut it down. After I did, I could never get it started again. No bong (or 
death tone), no hard drive activity and the screen got these weird bright red 
lines across it (even though it's a 1-bit 140 monitor). It also won't even 
react unless I plug power to the back and put the battery in. Any idea's 
guys? It would really be a shame to scrap it after all this time and work, 
thanks.

   Jake

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