Re: false news....

[mbsoftwaresolutions]

On 2019-02-22 14:50, Kevin Cully wrote:
There are a ton of VFP developers and they've never reached out to 
their community to improve their skills and it shows in their code.



So true!  Together, we're better.  

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Re: false news....

[Kevin Cully]

Forgive yourself and move on.  :D  We've all made bad design decisions 
at one point or another in the past.  The most important part is that 
you are active in a developer community and seek to do better.  I hope 
that I am a better developer today than I was yesterday.  There are a 
ton of VFP developers and they've never reached out to their community 
to improve their skills and it shows in their code.



On 2/22/19 12:57 PM, M Jarvis wrote:

On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 6:11 AM Kevin J Cully 
wrote:



I had a potential client where they based their primary keys based on
employee Social Security Numbers.  They didn't like it when I told them
that they'd need a complete rewrite. Notice this would have been the case
no matter what language/technology they were using.  It was just piss poor
design.



I must confess I did this once and used SSN's as a primary key. It is
my shame

I was told I had a year and a half to write a enterprise wide application
and out of the blue the reality was I had about 3 weeks, and failure would
have cost millions and millions... oh - and my job...

I was panicked and the first thing I thought to use was the SSN thinking
that certainly they wouldn't be changing so as a PK would be handy to use.
I went for it w/o thinking it through...

Granted, this was back in the day when the internet wasn't what we think of
today, but still - it was a really dumb dumb idea I always regretted...



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Re: false news....

[Peter Cushing]

On 25/02/2019 17:10, John Weller wrote:
> I should have said given   Gt Ducie St - that brings back memories of 
> commuting between Salford and Manchester Grammar many, many years ago!
>
It's more or less the same now, but with worse traffic :-(
Oh and Boddington's brewery has gone.

Peter

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Re: false news....

[Gene Wirchenko]

At 09:00 2019-02-25, Ted Roche  wrote:

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 11:38 AM Ed Leafe  wrote:

> They are presumably being used as PKs for tables representing humans, no?
> Then the vast majority of potential records would have null values, since
> most humans are not citizens of the USA.

Ur either Muricans, or your not. ;)


 Maybe.  I was a "US person" for the purposes of having a 
certificate of deposit.  It meant US citizen or entitled to work in the USA.



But seriously, there are some non-citizens with SSNs, and citizens,
without. So, yeah,  Matt's really sorry and promises not to do it again.


 Someone should make up a list "Lies Programmers Believe About 
Identifying Numbers".


Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


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Re: false news....

[Gene Wirchenko]

At 08:38 2019-02-25, Ed Leafe  wrote:

On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Ted Roche  wrote:
>
> There's a couple of issues with using SSNs.
>
> Technically, they are not unique. Several people have received duplicate
> numbers, so they're not ideal primary keys.

They are presumably being used as PKs for tables representing 
humans, no? Then the vast majority of potential records would have 
null values, since most humans are not citizens of the USA.


 You do not have to be a USA citizen to have an SSN.  I had one 
when I worked down there on a visa; it might even still be assigned to me.


Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


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RE: false news....

[John Weller]

I should have said given   Gt Ducie St - that brings back memories of 
commuting between Salford and Manchester Grammar many, many years ago!

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631


You inherited a boot brush?  That's a new one on me :-)



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Re: false news....

[Kurt @ Gmail]

Uh oh Ted - this kinda comment could push this thread into the Devious 
world of the OT Territory!!!


For the heck of it - I Googled the term - and I found it kind funny what 
was written up in the Urbandictionary:


"Those Muricans think they can just push everyone around. What abunch 
ofarrogant 
imperialisticbastards 
!"


Sure sounds like a word that Stephen Colbert would use a Lot!

;-)
-K-

On 2/25/2019 9:00 AM, Ted Roche wrote:

Ur either Muricans, or your not.;)



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Re: false news....

[Peter Cushing]

On 25/02/2019 16:53, John Weller wrote:
> Thanks Ted, that explains it well.  We have a similar number, the National 
> Insurance Number, which is unique and is not considered 'secret' at least as 
> far as I am aware, but that is random and includes a check digit.  I don't 
> think I would use it as it is too cumbersome.  
>
> I know what you mean about marking kit, fortunately when I went through basic 
> training we didn't have to do that but I still have a boot brush with a 
> relative's service number carved in it from when he did National Service 
> (conscription) that I inherited.
>
Although the NI number is not considered secret, it is like your DOB and
other details that you don't want people to have easy access to.  Got to
make it difficult for people to steal your identity.

You inherited a boot brush?  That's a new one on me :-)

Peter

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Re: false news....

[Ted Roche]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 11:38 AM Ed Leafe  wrote:

> They are presumably being used as PKs for tables representing humans, no?
> Then the vast majority of potential records would have null values, since
> most humans are not citizens of the USA.
>

Ur either Muricans, or your not. ;)

But seriously, there are some non-citizens with SSNs, and citizens,
without. So, yeah,  Matt's really sorry and promises not to do it again.



-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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RE: false news....

[John Weller]

Thanks Ted, that explains it well.  We have a similar number, the National 
Insurance Number, which is unique and is not considered 'secret' at least as 
far as I am aware, but that is random and includes a check digit.  I don't 
think I would use it as it is too cumbersome.  

I know what you mean about marking kit, fortunately when I went through basic 
training we didn't have to do that but I still have a boot brush with a 
relative's service number carved in it from when he did National Service 
(conscription) that I inherited.

John

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631

John:

There's a couple of issues with using SSNs.

Technically, they are not unique. Several people have received duplicate 
numbers, so they're not ideal primary keys.

Second, they are considered "secret" Personally Identifiable Information (often 
PII) and disclosure of such information can be a considered a data breach, 
leaving you liable to state, local, federal and international laws (like GDPR) 
requiring you to provide disclosure, notification and possible liability.

They're also pretty easy to guess. The first two designates the state of birth, 
easy to find, the last four and printed on FAR too many documents, and the 
three in the middle were issued chronologically, so knowing a birthdate narrows 
the guessing down by far.

When I was in bootcamp in 1979, they gave us all stencils and required us to 
have our name and service number, also our SSN on the hundreds of pieces of 
uniform and gear we were issued. I've still got a few in my basement and attic. 
Some secret!



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Re: false news....

[Ed Leafe]

On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Ted Roche  wrote:
> 
> There's a couple of issues with using SSNs.
> 
> Technically, they are not unique. Several people have received duplicate
> numbers, so they're not ideal primary keys.

They are presumably being used as PKs for tables representing humans, no? Then 
the vast majority of potential records would have null values, since most 
humans are not citizens of the USA.


-- Ed Leafe






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Re: false news....

[Ted Roche]

John:

There's a couple of issues with using SSNs.

Technically, they are not unique. Several people have received duplicate
numbers, so they're not ideal primary keys.

Second, they are considered "secret" Personally Identifiable Information
(often PII) and disclosure of such information can be a considered a data
breach, leaving you liable to state, local, federal and international laws
(like GDPR) requiring you to provide disclosure, notification and possible
liability.

They're also pretty easy to guess. The first two designates the state of
birth, easy to find, the last four and printed on FAR too many documents,
and the three in the middle were issued chronologically, so knowing a
birthdate narrows the guessing down by far.

When I was in bootcamp in 1979, they gave us all stencils and required us
to have our name and service number, also our SSN on the hundreds of pieces
of uniform and gear we were issued. I've still got a few in my basement and
attic. Some secret!


On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 11:13 AM John Weller  wrote:

> Purely out of curiosity and not being familiar with your SSNs (Social
> Security Numbers I assume) can I ask what is the problem with using them as
> a PK?
>
> John Weller
> 01380 723235
> 07976 393631
>
> I must confess I did this once and used SSN's as a primary key. It is
> my
> shame
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: false news....

[John Weller]

Purely out of curiosity and not being familiar with your SSNs (Social
Security Numbers I assume) can I ask what is the problem with using them as
a PK?

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631

I must confess I did this once and used SSN's as a primary key. It is my
shame



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RE: false news....

[Paul H. Tarver]

I have trouble criticizing your former programming self for making a
decision at an earlier time with the limited information, knowledge and
experience. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 and none of our earlier programming
would stand up to much scrutiny using today's knowledge and experience.
Besides, I've seen a lot of early mainframe programming that made the same
kinds of decisions based on the best knowledge they had at the time. Any
Cobol programmers out there remember Y2K?

I forgave my early programming, ignorant self a long time ago and tried to
learn and do better every day going forward. Now when I look back at my
earliest code, I try to focus on the mistakes I could have made but didn't.
:)

Paul H. Tarver


-Original Message-
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of M Jarvis
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 11:57 AM
To: profoxt...@leafe.com
Subject: Re: false news

On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 6:11 AM Kevin J Cully 
wrote:


> I had a potential client where they based their primary keys based on
> employee Social Security Numbers.  They didn't like it when I told them
> that they'd need a complete rewrite. Notice this would have been the case
> no matter what language/technology they were using.  It was just piss poor
> design.
> 
>

I must confess I did this once and used SSN's as a primary key. It is
my shame

I was told I had a year and a half to write a enterprise wide application
and out of the blue the reality was I had about 3 weeks, and failure would
have cost millions and millions... oh - and my job...

I was panicked and the first thing I thought to use was the SSN thinking
that certainly they wouldn't be changing so as a PK would be handy to use.
I went for it w/o thinking it through...

Granted, this was back in the day when the internet wasn't what we think of
today, but still - it was a really dumb dumb idea I always regretted...

-- 
Matt Jarvis
Eugene, Oregon USA


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[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: false news....

[M Jarvis]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 6:11 AM Kevin J Cully 
wrote:


> I had a potential client where they based their primary keys based on
> employee Social Security Numbers.  They didn't like it when I told them
> that they'd need a complete rewrite. Notice this would have been the case
> no matter what language/technology they were using.  It was just piss poor
> design.
> 
>

I must confess I did this once and used SSN's as a primary key. It is
my shame

I was told I had a year and a half to write a enterprise wide application
and out of the blue the reality was I had about 3 weeks, and failure would
have cost millions and millions... oh - and my job...

I was panicked and the first thing I thought to use was the SSN thinking
that certainly they wouldn't be changing so as a PK would be handy to use.
I went for it w/o thinking it through...

Granted, this was back in the day when the internet wasn't what we think of
today, but still - it was a really dumb dumb idea I always regretted...

-- 
Matt Jarvis
Eugene, Oregon USA


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RE: false news....

[Kevin J Cully]

Well, a lot of that article is correct, even though I don't want it to be.  VFP 
as a *language* is as secure as the programmer programmed it to be.  VFP as a 
*database* isn't secure itself.  You can encrypt fields.  You can encrypt the 
directory that the data is stored in.  But DBF data isn't secure.  You wouldn't 
store social security numbers or credit card numbers in Excel spreadsheets, 
right?

I've haven't recommended DBFs for storage for over a decade now.  There are 
better storage mechanisms such as Postgres, MariaDB, and even SQLite which can 
be set up as an encrypted database.  VFP as a language is still valid, although 
it will never be able to create 64bit applications but that is a different 
subject.  [Insert Xojo plug here as a viable language for VFP developers.]  I 
had a potential client where they based their primary keys based on employee 
Social Security Numbers.  They didn't like it when I told them that they'd need 
a complete rewrite. Notice this would have been the case no matter what 
language/technology they were using.  It was just piss poor design.

It appears from the article, that when the vendor was notified of the 
situation, that they were able to quickly address it although the article 
didn't say what that solution was.  Probably encrypted the field?  Hash the 
field with an external secured table containing the sensitive data? Who knows. 
To me, that's a win.  Hopefully the vendor contacts all customers notifying 
them that there is a vulnerability and that there is a solution available.

As Ted Roche always says "Security is a process".

-Kevin

-Original Message-
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Dave Crozier
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 6:07 AM
To: 'ProFox Email List' 
Subject: VFP: false news

Ignorance and stupidity still runs in the so-called “expert consultant” 
fraternity.

“An outdated software that is used by about 200 Vermont municipalities and the 
Vermont Tax Department has long contained flaws that exposed sensitive 
information including Social Security numbers, according to an IT consultant 
and the software company’s founder.”
“You could make a strong case that Visual FoxPro shouldn’t be used on a 
government level,” Johnson said.

https://vtdigger.org/2019/02/05/consultant-outdated-software-left-worker-information-exposed-200-towns/

Thankfully the software owners realise that it isn’t a fault in VFP, it is a 
fault in the designing of the infrastructure.

Expert:
Ex - Out of date
Spurt – a drip under pressure!!

Dave Crozier
Software Development Manager
Flexipol Packaging Ltd.

﴾⚆ᨎ⚆﴿



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VFP: false news....

[Dave Crozier]

Ignorance and stupidity still runs in the so-called “expert consultant” 
fraternity.

“An outdated software that is used by about 200 Vermont municipalities and the 
Vermont Tax Department has long contained flaws that exposed sensitive 
information including Social Security numbers, according to an IT consultant 
and the software company’s founder.”
“You could make a strong case that Visual FoxPro shouldn’t be used on a 
government level,” Johnson said.

https://vtdigger.org/2019/02/05/consultant-outdated-software-left-worker-information-exposed-200-towns/

Thankfully the software owners realise that it isn’t a fault in VFP, it is a 
fault in the designing of the infrastructure.

Expert:
Ex - Out of date
Spurt – a drip under pressure!!

Dave Crozier
Software Development Manager
Flexipol Packaging Ltd.

﴾⚆ᨎ⚆﴿



Flexipol® Packaging Ltd
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