Re: Pubs data
Hi Kingsley, Hi John, First off, sympathies John for the roasting on Facebook - not a nice experience I'm sure. Re your question Kingsley... I should be careful what I say, don't wanna give anyone any ideas ;) Seriously though, regarding Revyu, while I developed the site, the IP currently rests with the OU (part of the terms of my PhD), so the picture gets even more complicated than it is already. There have been some varied outcomes AFAIR in UK courts regarding the relative culpability of messengers (i.e. sites) vs reviewers in reviewing scenarios. Naturally IANAL, but apparently the defamation laws in the UK are some of the most draconian around, so you're right to be cautious John (sad though it is). The most comparable experience from Revyu involved a review of a garage; it's documented here in a way that prevents this blogger being sued but retains the text online (and tells the account of the threats received); note how the text is constructed: http://doodznchyx.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/mot-mechanic-in-milton-keynes-chilling-free-speech/ So as that post says, I took the review down when an email was sent threatening to get the lawyers involved, but I also logged the takedown notice in the Chilling Effects database http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi (now this would be AWESOME as linked data) so that it didn't go unrecorded. I'm also very grateful to Martin Poulter for blogging about it at the address above. Since then I have moderated a few reviews voluntarily (I don't like doing this, but it seems to be a sensible precaution for all parties) but no more threats have been received. In my experience most people are less reactionary than the garage and the people you and I encountered. Some places have had bad reviews followed by a number of highly positive reviews (perhaps even by friends of the owner, who knows). In fact, this would be my first response to angry reviewees - if you disagree then write your own review, or ask your satisfied customers to do the same. This is much more powerful from a business point of view than legal threats. No idea if this helps; it may at least round out the picture. Cheers, Tom. 2009/3/5 Kingsley Idehen kide...@openlinksw.com: John Goodwin wrote: Hi all, I've decided to (for the time being at least) remove the pubs linked data. Someone seemed to object to a review of their local (see here http://tinyurl.com/d36s4c) and having looked at some of the other (more negative reviews) I decided I didn't want this happening again. While I didn't do the data capture or reviews the pubs were hosted on my website - and someone did find contact details and get in touch :( The reviews were all meant in fun, but some could be (and have been) taken the wrong way. So I'd sooner not risk getting sued or having my knee caps removed by angry locals! On the plus side it was a useful exercise for me...setting up some linked data. Maybe I'll put it back at some stage without the reviews. Remember in the words of the mighty Joe Strummer You have the right to free speech as long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it :) John . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk John, So does Tom get into trouble if I give a Pub a bad review using http://revyu.com ? I still think you inadvertently stumbled on a business model here :-) -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen President CEO OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. Find out more about Talis at www.talis.com shared innovationTM Any views or personal opinions expressed within this email may not be those of Talis Information Ltd or its employees. The content of this email message and any files that may be attached are confidential, and for the usage of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, then please return this message to the sender and delete it. Any use of this e-mail by an unauthorised recipient is prohibited. Talis Information Ltd is a member of the Talis Group of companies and is registered in England No 3638278 with its registered office at Knights Court, Solihull Parkway, Birmingham Business Park, B37 7YB.
RE: Pubs data
Thanks Tom. I think I've managed to calm them down now :) I decided to take the pubs linked data because: 1) The reviews were not actually my own (I'd never visited the pub that caused the trouble) and reading some of the other reviews I realised that (while amusing) they could easily have been taken the wrong way. I figured it was probably not great having my name associated with reviews I didn't write. My site was static and unlike revyu there was no way for people to write counter reviews. 2) I mainly did it as an experiment to try the whole linked data thing on an amateur level. I think things have moved on since I started it - the site was pretty primitive. 3) Southampton locals with burning torches and pitchforks angry their favourite pub was given a bad review is not a pretty site :) John -Original Message- From: t...@talisplatform.com [mailto:t...@talisplatform.com] On Behalf Of Tom Heath Sent: 06 March 2009 14:26 To: Kingsley Idehen Cc: John Goodwin; public-lod@w3.org Subject: Re: Pubs data Hi Kingsley, Hi John, First off, sympathies John for the roasting on Facebook - not a nice experience I'm sure. . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk
Re: Pubs data
Tom Heath wrote: Hi Kingsley, Hi John, First off, sympathies John for the roasting on Facebook - not a nice experience I'm sure. Re your question Kingsley... I should be careful what I say, don't wanna give anyone any ideas ;) Seriously though, regarding Revyu, while I developed the site, the IP currently rests with the OU (part of the terms of my PhD), so the picture gets even more complicated than it is already. There have been some varied outcomes AFAIR in UK courts regarding the relative culpability of messengers (i.e. sites) vs reviewers in reviewing scenarios. Naturally IANAL, but apparently the defamation laws in the UK are some of the most draconian around, so you're right to be cautious John (sad though it is). The most comparable experience from Revyu involved a review of a garage; it's documented here in a way that prevents this blogger being sued but retains the text online (and tells the account of the threats received); note how the text is constructed: http://doodznchyx.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/mot-mechanic-in-milton-keynes-chilling-free-speech/ So as that post says, I took the review down when an email was sent threatening to get the lawyers involved, but I also logged the takedown notice in the Chilling Effects database http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi (now this would be AWESOME as linked data) so that it didn't go unrecorded. I'm also very grateful to Martin Poulter for blogging about it at the address above. Since then I have moderated a few reviews voluntarily (I don't like doing this, but it seems to be a sensible precaution for all parties) but no more threats have been received. In my experience most people are less reactionary than the garage and the people you and I encountered. Some places have had bad reviews followed by a number of highly positive reviews (perhaps even by friends of the owner, who knows). In fact, this would be my first response to angry reviewees - if you disagree then write your own review, or ask your satisfied customers to do the same. This is much more powerful from a business point of view than legal threa No idea if this helps; it may at least round out the picture. Tom, Certainly clarifies a lot. Naturally, I do expect other Review services that are Linked Data based to emerge soon. I am certainly trying to encourage all Review services I encounter to make this shift --- as you may have noticed via some of my Tweets [1] :-) Links: 1. http://search.twitter.com/search?q=revyu.com Kingsley Cheers, Tom. 2009/3/5 Kingsley Idehen kide...@openlinksw.com: John Goodwin wrote: Hi all, I've decided to (for the time being at least) remove the pubs linked data. Someone seemed to object to a review of their local (see here http://tinyurl.com/d36s4c) and having looked at some of the other (more negative reviews) I decided I didn't want this happening again. While I didn't do the data capture or reviews the pubs were hosted on my website - and someone did find contact details and get in touch :( The reviews were all meant in fun, but some could be (and have been) taken the wrong way. So I'd sooner not risk getting sued or having my knee caps removed by angry locals! On the plus side it was a useful exercise for me...setting up some linked data. Maybe I'll put it back at some stage without the reviews. Remember in the words of the mighty Joe Strummer You have the right to free speech as long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it :) John . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk John, So does Tom get into trouble if I give a Pub a bad review using http://revyu.com ? I still think you inadvertently stumbled on a business model here :-) -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen President CEO OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. Find out more about Talis at www.talis.com shared innovationTM Any views or personal opinions expressed within this email may not be those of Talis Information Ltd or its employees. The content of this email message and any files that may be attached are confidential, and for the usage of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, then please return this message to the sender and delete it. Any
Re: Pubs data
John Goodwin wrote: Thanks Tom. I think I've managed to calm them down now :) I decided to take the pubs linked data because: 1) The reviews were not actually my own (I'd never visited the pub that caused the trouble) and reading some of the other reviews I realised that (while amusing) they could easily have been taken the wrong way. I figured it was probably not great having my name associated with reviews I didn't write. My site was static and unlike revyu there was no way for people to write counter reviews. 2) I mainly did it as an experiment to try the whole linked data thing on an amateur level. I think things have moved on since I started it - the site was pretty primitive. 3) Southampton locals with burning torches and pitchforks angry their favourite pub was given a bad review is not a pretty site :) You have an awesome comedy skit in the making :-) Kingsley John -Original Message- From: t...@talisplatform.com [mailto:t...@talisplatform.com] On Behalf Of Tom Heath Sent: 06 March 2009 14:26 To: Kingsley Idehen Cc: John Goodwin; public-lod@w3.org Subject: Re: Pubs data Hi Kingsley, Hi John, First off, sympathies John for the roasting on Facebook - not a nice experience I'm sure. . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen President CEO OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
RE: Pubs data
I think the story from start to finish might make an interesting conference presentation :) John -Original Message- From: Kingsley Idehen [mailto:kide...@openlinksw.com] Sent: 06 March 2009 14:56 To: John Goodwin Cc: Tom Heath; public-lod@w3.org Subject: Re: Pubs data John Goodwin wrote: Thanks Tom. I think I've managed to calm them down now :) I decided to take the pubs linked data because: 1) The reviews were not actually my own (I'd never visited the pub that caused the trouble) and reading some of the other reviews I realised that (while amusing) they could easily have been taken the wrong way. I figured it was probably not great having my name associated with reviews I didn't write. My site was static and unlike revyu there was no way for people to write counter reviews. 2) I mainly did it as an experiment to try the whole linked data thing on an amateur level. I think things have moved on since I started it - the site was pretty primitive. 3) Southampton locals with burning torches and pitchforks angry their favourite pub was given a bad review is not a pretty site :) You have an awesome comedy skit in the making :-) Kingsley John -Original Message- From: t...@talisplatform.com [mailto:t...@talisplatform.com] On Behalf Of Tom Heath Sent: 06 March 2009 14:26 To: Kingsley Idehen Cc: John Goodwin; public-lod@w3.org Subject: Re: Pubs data Hi Kingsley, Hi John, First off, sympathies John for the roasting on Facebook - not a nice experience I'm sure. . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen President CEO OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.com . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk
Re: Pubs data
Hi All, My compliments to John on the Facebook Thread. That's a scary sight! I think the solution to this problem will probably come with Web of Trust and Identity. First off, the thought that I might someday be on the other side, fighting against an unfounded review, makes me think about the following twice. OTOH, We will always have people trying to silence free speech, as it the line is blurry by nature. I can even write something possitive that, taken out of context, seems negative. We need both: control and freedom. How can that be achieved? Let me touch on one possible extremist scenario. Remember Freenet? ( http://freenetproject.org/ ) They go to the extreme of blurring the identity of the author and physical location of bits of information. This pretty much prevents censorship from being applied ( even when it is right to do so ). Now, I wonder if RDF as is might be used to build something like this using P2P architectures, or simple mirrors, or bots. It seems that from a tech POV it would be easy since the only thing moving around is the bit of data. Of course this is not a solution either. We do want control to be applicable. The ideal solution is more in the lines of: 1) Attach identity to the review ( so people take responsibility for what they say ). Free speech as in freedom, not in free 2) Provide voting mechanisms that also attach identity 3) This makes a review more or less discoverable by whoever consumes the service Just throwing in some elements into the discussion Thanks, A On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 11:38 AM, John Goodwin john.good...@ordnancesurvey.co.uk wrote: Thanks Tom. I think I've managed to calm them down now :) I decided to take the pubs linked data because: 1) The reviews were not actually my own (I'd never visited the pub that caused the trouble) and reading some of the other reviews I realised that (while amusing) they could easily have been taken the wrong way. I figured it was probably not great having my name associated with reviews I didn't write. My site was static and unlike revyu there was no way for people to write counter reviews. 2) I mainly did it as an experiment to try the whole linked data thing on an amateur level. I think things have moved on since I started it - the site was pretty primitive. 3) Southampton locals with burning torches and pitchforks angry their favourite pub was given a bad review is not a pretty site :) John -Original Message- From: t...@talisplatform.com [mailto:t...@talisplatform.com] On Behalf Of Tom Heath Sent: 06 March 2009 14:26 To: Kingsley Idehen Cc: John Goodwin; public-lod@w3.org Subject: Re: Pubs data Hi Kingsley, Hi John, First off, sympathies John for the roasting on Facebook - not a nice experience I'm sure. . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk -- Aldo Bucchi U N I V R Z Office: +56 2 795 4532 Mobile:+56 9 7623 8653 skype:aldo.bucchi http://www.univrz.com/ http://aldobucchi.com/ PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION This message is only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not distribute or copy this communication, by e-mail or otherwise. Instead, please notify us immediately by return e-mail. INFORMACIÓN PRIVILEGIADA Y CONFIDENCIAL Este mensaje está destinado sólo a la persona u organización al cual está dirigido y podría contener información privilegiada y confidencial. Si usted no es el destinatario, por favor no distribuya ni copie esta comunicación, por email o por otra vía. Por el contrario, por favor notifíquenos inmediatamente vía e-mail.
Re: Pubs data
Hi Dan, Aldo, and Martin :) Very interesting stuff, thanks. On this kind of note, one of the goals of Revyu was to enable the short-circuiting of impartial (or at least less trusted) reviews, precisely because of the tie-in with FOAF-based social networking. Take reviews of this pub for example http://revyu.com/things/shoulder-of-mutton-calverton-milton-keynes-accommodation; I want to use my social network to filter out those reviews from people furthest away from me in the network, or at least those people with whom I have least affinity. The site http://hoonoh.com/ is a step in the right direction (more details in my thesis) [1] (if you'll excuse the self-promotion), but data sparsity (and performance ;) are still a real issue. Cheers, Tom. [1] http://tomheath.com/thesis 2009/3/6 Dan Brickley dan...@danbri.org: On 6/3/09 15:25, Tom Heath wrote: The most comparable experience from Revyu involved a review of a garage; it's documented here in a way that prevents this blogger being sued but retains the text online (and tells the account of the threats received); note how the text is constructed: http://doodznchyx.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/mot-mechanic-in-milton-keynes-chilling-free-speech/ Interesting case. I wonder whether OpenID might (eventually...) improve the landscape here by offering a relatively lightweight right of reply mechanism. 1. If the review entry includes the URI for the homepage of the garage (pub, restaurant, etc...). 2. ... and that homepage contains OpenID delegation markup. For example, in danbri.org I have this pointing to my Yahoo identity. A homepage for an organization could do this directly or indirectly. The markup is something like this: link rel=openid2.provider href=https://open.login.yahooapis.com/openid/op/auth; / link rel=openid2.local_id href=https://me.yahoo.com/danbri3; / 3. ... the review could say Does this review talk about you, your business or product? If you can prove you control that page, you can log in now and give your side of the story... (and contain help / wizard code to help folk add the openid markup if needed). 4. Downstream parties that have syndicated the review, can also take a stream of data that includes OpenID-verified responses from the reviewed party. This might range from yeah, we had a really slack staff member who is no longer with us, through oops, sorry! we'll try to do better to the reviewer has a personal grudge, is harassing us, ... and we're pursuing this in court. These counter-points, to the extent *they* mention other parties and entities, should also be fair game for right-to-reply also. And again I think OpenID offers an appropriate piece of technology for establishing the provenance of those claims. Yes OpenID can be a bit hard to use, explain and sometimes doesn't even work, but it's the best we have so far. And there are a lot of OpenID-enabled accounts out there... thoughts? Dan -- http://danbri.org/ Please consider the environment before printing this email. Find out more about Talis at www.talis.com shared innovationTM Any views or personal opinions expressed within this email may not be those of Talis Information Ltd or its employees. The content of this email message and any files that may be attached are confidential, and for the usage of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, then please return this message to the sender and delete it. Any use of this e-mail by an unauthorised recipient is prohibited. Talis Information Ltd is a member of the Talis Group of companies and is registered in England No 3638278 with its registered office at Knights Court, Solihull Parkway, Birmingham Business Park, B37 7YB. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ -- Dr Tom Heath Researcher Platform Division Talis Information Ltd T: 0870 400 5000 W: http://www.talis.com/
RE: Pubs data
-Original Message- From: Dan Brickley [mailto:danbrick...@gmail.com] On Behalf Yes OpenID can be a bit hard to use, explain and sometimes doesn't even work, but it's the best we have so far. And there are a lot of OpenID-enabled accounts out there... thoughts? Interesting. On a lighter note I'm glad the locals had no way of easily using the RDF as they could have navigated from the pub review, via dc:creator to my FOAF profile and lat/long of where I live. Luckily the guy that threatened to send the boys round had not thought about SPARQLing Virtuoso's LOD instance :) John . This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person. Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice. Thank you for your cooperation. Ordnance Survey Romsey Road Southampton SO16 4GU Tel: 08456 050505 http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk
Re: Pubs data
On 6 Mar 2009, at 15:24, John Goodwin wrote: Luckily the guy that threatened to send the boys round had not thought about SPARQLing Virtuoso's LOD instance :) I suspect sending the boys 'round and SPARQLing Virtuoso's LOD instance are mutually exclusive mental models. rob Rob Styles tel: +44 (0)870 400 5000 fax: +44 (0)870 400 5001 mobile: +44 (0)7971 475 257 msn: m...@yahoo.com irc: irc.freenode.net/mrob,isnick web: http://www.talis.com/ blog: http://www.dynamicorange.com/blog/ blog: http://blogs.talis.com/panlibus/ blog: http://blogs.talis.com/nodalities/ blog: http://blogs.talis.com/n2/ Please consider the environment before printing this email. Find out more about Talis at www.talis.com shared innovationTM Any views or personal opinions expressed within this email may not be those of Talis Information Ltd or its employees. The content of this email message and any files that may be attached are confidential, and for the usage of the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, then please return this message to the sender and delete it. Any use of this e-mail by an unauthorised recipient is prohibited. Talis Information Ltd is a member of the Talis Group of companies and is registered in England No 3638278 with its registered office at Knights Court, Solihull Parkway, Birmingham Business Park, B37 7YB.
