Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On 30/05/2012 00:56, Julian Reschke wrote: On 2012-05-29 16:53, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com wrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. Emails should only be in plain text. From the Plain_text Wikipedia page whose link was given above: Files that contain markup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup_language or other meta-data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-data are generally considered plain-text, as long as the entirety remains in directly human-readable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-readable form (as in HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML, XML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML, and so on ... If you want people to use what my mail-agent describes as plain text instead of what it describes as rich text, I suggest finding a better reference. Regards -Mark
RE: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
Response inline. Thanks, Bryan Sullivan -Original Message- From: Tobie Langel [mailto:to...@fb.com] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:06 PM To: SULLIVAN, BRYAN L; ife...@google.com; Karl Dubost Cc: WebApps WG Subject: Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting On 5/31/12 11:58 PM, SULLIVAN, BRYAN L bs3...@att.com wrote: bryan How about a practical suggestion for the (probably many) of us that have to use Microsoft Outlook? From: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Mailing_List If you use Outlook or Outlook Express, you can use either Outlook-QuoteFix [1] or OE-QuoteFix[2]. These plugins fix several of Outlook's problems with sending properly formatted emails. bryan Sorry, I should have said Outlook as typically approved by corporate IT departments which does not include plugins. --tobie --- [1]: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix [2]: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix
RE: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
bryan Comment inline. From: Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) [mailto:ife...@google.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:42 AM To: Karl Dubost Cc: WebApps WG Subject: Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Karl Dubost ka...@opera.com wrote: Le 29 mai 2012 à 12:59, Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) a écrit : And your modified reply causes GMail not to collapse the replied-to text seems to be a GMail issue. […] resolved by using an up-to-date MUA. Dare putting a list somewhere? Sure, how about: • Thunderbird 12 • GMail • Mail.app • Opera Mail 11.64 bryan How about a practical suggestion for the (probably many) of us that have to use Microsoft Outlook? In my experience the conversion of rich text or html to plain text involves significant one-way conversion in the content. And it's not clear at all how to get the towers effect, so emails end up with a combination of MUA-applied formatting and adhoc formatting. I think unless W3C (1) mandates all email discussion be done through the mail archive website, (2) enabled the ability to respond on the archive website (and not just invoke the default MUA), and (3) enforces the towers effect in replies to ensure consistency, we will not achieve effective, consistent use of plain text and inline commenting for W3C email.
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On 5/31/12 11:58 PM, SULLIVAN, BRYAN L bs3...@att.com wrote: bryan How about a practical suggestion for the (probably many) of us that have to use Microsoft Outlook? From: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Mailing_List If you use Outlook or Outlook Express, you can use either Outlook-QuoteFix [1] or OE-QuoteFix[2]. These plugins fix several of Outlook's problems with sending properly formatted emails. --tobie --- [1]: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix [2]: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On 5/29/12 6:52 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Jean-Claude Dufourd jean-claude.dufo...@telecom-paristech.fr wrote: On 29/5/12 17:56 , Julian Reschke wrote: On 2012-05-29 16:53, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com wrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. Emails should only be in plain text. JCD: It would be easier for me to comply with this rule if I understood the rationale. My perception is that this rule is not relevant any more. Against this rule, I claim that the readability of replies in text-only threads is much worse, unless the replier spends ages paying attention to text formatting by hand which is not acceptable. At least, that was the case the last time I tried. There are several fairly simple reasons supporting Glenn's point (Julian's is simple excessive): You forgot an important one: the archives don't support HTML. A great deal of information might get lost if you're relying on HTML formatting to convey your message. --tobie
[admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
A recent manifest spec thread lead to a discussion about the group's top-posting policy which is a good segue to remind everyone we do have some expectations on the usage of the group's mail lists and I'll quote it here ... [[ http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WorkMode#Mail_List_Policy.2C_Usage.2C_Etiquette.2C_etc. *WebApps' members appreciate and encourage frank technical discussions on our mail lists but all discussions must be done in a respectful manner. Please note this respect requirement is codified in the Process Document via the following participation criteria Social competence in one's role http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#ParticipationCriteria. Additionally, seePositive Work Environment Task Force http://www.w3.org/2007/06/PWET-statement-of-principles.htmland if you did not attend/Kindergarten/, we expect our list participants to adhere to the basic principles inAll I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm.* We also expect our mail list participants to adhere to the following: * Follow basic/Netiquette/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquettesuch as avoiding typing in ALL CAPS * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text * Messages should not usetop-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting. See theWHATWG's top-posting guidelines http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Should_I_top-post_or_reply_inline.3Ffor more information. * Subjects should be prefaced with the name of the spec (for example:/[DOM4] Blah, Blah, Blah/) * Attachments must follow theW3C Guidelines for Email Attachment Formats http://www.w3.org/2002/03/email_attachment_formats.html, in particular: o Avoid unnecessary email attachments. o Use an attachment only when it is likely to benefit to recipients. Otherwise, place the information (in plain text format) in the body of your message. o If an attachment is necessary, avoid formats that are virus prone, proprietary or platform dependent. For example, whenever possible you should use HTML instead of MS Word, PowerPoint or PDF. o FollowWeb Content Accessibility Guidelines http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/(WCAG) ]] -Thanks, AB
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.comwrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. * Messages should not usetop-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting. It's good to avoid top-posting, but unfortunately in the real world it's often just not possible: editing quotes for inline posting on a mobile device is more or less impossible. o FollowWeb Content Accessibility Guidelines http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-**WEBCONTENT/http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ (WCAG) (I hope nobody honestly expects people to read a this before posting an attachment to a mailing list.) -- Glenn Maynard
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On 2012-05-29 16:53, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com wrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. Emails should only be in plain text. ... It's good to avoid top-posting, but unfortunately in the real world it's often just not possible: editing quotes for inline posting on a mobile device is more or less impossible. ... Then maybe one should wait with replying until a proper mail client is available :-)- ... Best regards, Julian
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On 29/5/12 17:56 , Julian Reschke wrote: On 2012-05-29 16:53, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com wrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. Emails should only be in plain text. JCD: It would be easier for me to comply with this rule if I understood the rationale. My perception is that this rule is not relevant any more. Against this rule, I claim that the readability of replies in text-only threads is much worse, unless the replier spends ages paying attention to text formatting by hand which is not acceptable. At least, that was the case the last time I tried. Best regards JC -- JC Dufourd Directeur d'Etudes/Professor Groupe Multimedia/Multimedia Group Traitement du Signal et Images/Signal and Image Processing Telecom ParisTech, 37-39 rue Dareau, 75014 Paris, France Tel: +33145817733 - Mob: +33677843843 - Fax: +33145817144
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Jean-Claude Dufourd jean-claude.dufo...@telecom-paristech.fr wrote: On 29/5/12 17:56 , Julian Reschke wrote: On 2012-05-29 16:53, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com wrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. Emails should only be in plain text. JCD: It would be easier for me to comply with this rule if I understood the rationale. My perception is that this rule is not relevant any more. Against this rule, I claim that the readability of replies in text-only threads is much worse, unless the replier spends ages paying attention to text formatting by hand which is not acceptable. At least, that was the case the last time I tried. There are several fairly simple reasons supporting Glenn's point (Julian's is simple excessive): 1. Many HTML-producing mail clients still produce very bad HTML, which doesn't translate well to all clients. 2. In the same vein, the WYSIWYG nature often means that people end up producing something that looks good enough, particular with quote towers. Many of the rich-text editors I've seen have really bad usability around quote towers. 3. I've seen a *lot* of abuse of color as a way of distinguishing between quote and reply. This is confusing because, first, it's a second way of doing the same thing, and second, I'm color-blind. Basically, in plain text there's more-or-less only way to do most things. It's really easy to format, especially if you follow a format like Markdown so you don't have to think about things much. I happen to read and write all my messages in plain text, and I can assure you that it does not take ages. Most of the time, all I have to do is trim the whitespace that Gmail inserts at the top, and trim off signatures from the bottom. If I feel like it, I'll take a few seconds to clean up the quote tower too to add or remove blank lines at the correct quote depth as necessary. Responding to your email, for example, took less than 5 seconds of formatting time. ~TJ
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Jean-Claude Dufourd jean-claude.dufo...@telecom-paristech.fr wrote: On 29/5/12 17:56 , Julian Reschke wrote: On 2012-05-29 16:53, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Arthur Barstow art.bars...@nokia.com mailto:art.bars...@nokia.com wrote: * Messages should be encoded usingplain text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text No, messages should have a plaintext *version* (MIME alternative). It's common and useful to use HTML messages, especially when posting about actual spec text, where being able to use italics and bold is extremely useful. This is quite a relic; I havn't heard anyone make the emails should only be in plain text claim in a decade or so. Emails should only be in plain text. JCD: It would be easier for me to comply with this rule if I understood the rationale. My perception is that this rule is not relevant any more. Against this rule, I claim that the readability of replies in text-only threads is much worse, unless the replier spends ages paying attention to text formatting by hand which is not acceptable. At least, that was the case the last time I tried. There are several fairly simple reasons supporting Glenn's point (Julian's is simple excessive): 1. Many HTML-producing mail clients still produce very bad HTML, which doesn't translate well to all clients. 2. In the same vein, the WYSIWYG nature often means that people end up producing something that looks good enough, particular with quote towers. Many of the rich-text editors I've seen have really bad usability around quote towers. 3. I've seen a *lot* of abuse of color as a way of distinguishing between quote and reply. This is confusing because, first, it's a second way of doing the same thing, and second, I'm color-blind. Basically, in plain text there's more-or-less only way to do most things. It's really easy to format, especially if you follow a format like Markdown so you don't have to think about things much. I happen to read and write all my messages in plain text, and I can assure you that it does not take ages. Most of the time, all I have to do is trim the whitespace that Gmail inserts at the top, and trim off signatures from the bottom. If I feel like it, I'll take a few seconds to clean up the quote tower too to add or remove blank lines at the correct quote depth as necessary. Responding to your email, for example, took less than 5 seconds of formatting time. ~TJ And your modified reply causes GMail not to collapse the replied-to text, meaning that when I want to scan through a thread I have to spend a lot more effort finding where the previous email ended and your reply beings. There's a lot of benefits to formatted conversations. I don't understand what benefits people are claiming from plain text that aren't resolved by using an up-to-date MUA.
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
Le 29 mai 2012 à 12:59, Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) a écrit : And your modified reply causes GMail not to collapse the replied-to text seems to be a GMail issue. […] resolved by using an up-to-date MUA. Dare putting a list somewhere? -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [admin] Mail List Policy, Usage, Etiquette, etc. Top-posting
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Karl Dubost ka...@opera.com wrote: Le 29 mai 2012 à 12:59, Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) a écrit : And your modified reply causes GMail not to collapse the replied-to text seems to be a GMail issue. […] resolved by using an up-to-date MUA. Dare putting a list somewhere? Sure, how about: - Thunderbird 12 - GMail - Mail.app - Opera Mail 11.64
