Re: [pydotorg-www] some requests for a meeting minuting feature on www.python.org
On 12.06.2020 19:35, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: > On 6/12/20 1:22 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> On 12.06.2020 18:30, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: >>> I spoke with Ernest a few weeks ago about how www.python.org could >>> become a better home for public minutes of meetings. So here is my >>> current thinking - this is long, but I want to share it in public in >>> case it helps others understand the work. >> >> You may have noticed: the python.org website has a completely >> non-working CMS. If you want to achieve collaboration, I'd strongly >> suggest looking for something different (e.g. the NextCloud/OnlyOffice >> idea you're floating) and focus on that. >> >> The documents would then appear under a subdomain, but at least >> there'd be proper control over who gets to edit what and, what's >> really more important, enables other people than the handful with >> python.org editing rights to submit content in a user friendly >> way. >> >> BTW: I may sound a bit negative on all this. That's because I >> had been fighting to make python.org more user (= people providing >> and maintaining content) friendly for several years without >> success. If you have more luck: more power to you :-) > Hi, Marc-Andre! I was probably less clear than I should have been about > my suggested workflow: > > 1. Before, during, and immediately after meeting: people collaboratively > edit agenda and notes using Etherpad, Google Docs, Nextcloud, or > something like that > 2. After meeting, once notes are finalized: someone moves them into the > www.python.org CMS. That's a good workflow and we're using such a workflow in the EuroPython Society - without the second step, though: we simply keep the document open as live document for the intended audience to see. And we use the same document for all meetings, since this is good for understanding the history and development of how things come to be. Editing usually starts by creating an agenda. This is then updated during the meeting with the notes and results of the discussions / votes. > That second step doesn't absolutely need to be a multi-person step. The > "Granular privileges: I'd like to let all my team members add minutes > within our chunk of the site hierarchy." item in my list was in the > "heavily encouraged" section, not the requirements. If you would > prioritize requirements for this feature differently I would like to > read your remix of my list (and what project are you minuting meetings > for? if it's a very different type than the one I've been working on > then maybe we have different requirements). I've been using the above approach with a live agenda / minutes document for many years now and in several contexts, both professionally and when working with volunteer organizations. It's been working really well. What's essential is that multiple people can edit the documents at the same time. We're using Google Docs for this, but OnlyOffice should work just as well. > Also, when you say "completely non-working" I'm not sure what you mean. > I can successfully log in and edit pages, and the changes then display > on the site. Perhaps you mean that the granularity of editing rights is > inadequate? Yes, you can log in and edit text, but that's where it ends. There is no history of edits, it's not possible to revert an edit, get an update of who edited what, there's no builtin workflow for things which need reviews (such as success stories) and it's not easy to manage permissions to certain areas of the website. A true CMS covers all of the above. Google Docs and OnlyOffice will cover most of the above, even though they are not real CMS systems (think of Plone for example) either. > I don't intend to fight anyone, but thank you for the kind wishes! With "fighting" I meant that I tried to get the website fixed to provide better CMS support running up against lots of walls along the way. For the job board, I eventually started implementing patches myself. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 12 2020) >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/ >>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/ ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ https://www.malemburg.com/ ___ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
Re: [pydotorg-www] some requests for a meeting minuting feature on www.python.org
On 6/12/20 1:22 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: On 12.06.2020 18:30, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: I spoke with Ernest a few weeks ago about how www.python.org could become a better home for public minutes of meetings. So here is my current thinking - this is long, but I want to share it in public in case it helps others understand the work. You may have noticed: the python.org website has a completely non-working CMS. If you want to achieve collaboration, I'd strongly suggest looking for something different (e.g. the NextCloud/OnlyOffice idea you're floating) and focus on that. The documents would then appear under a subdomain, but at least there'd be proper control over who gets to edit what and, what's really more important, enables other people than the handful with python.org editing rights to submit content in a user friendly way. BTW: I may sound a bit negative on all this. That's because I had been fighting to make python.org more user (= people providing and maintaining content) friendly for several years without success. If you have more luck: more power to you :-) Hi, Marc-Andre! I was probably less clear than I should have been about my suggested workflow: 1. Before, during, and immediately after meeting: people collaboratively edit agenda and notes using Etherpad, Google Docs, Nextcloud, or something like that 2. After meeting, once notes are finalized: someone moves them into the www.python.org CMS. That second step doesn't absolutely need to be a multi-person step. The "Granular privileges: I'd like to let all my team members add minutes within our chunk of the site hierarchy." item in my list was in the "heavily encouraged" section, not the requirements. If you would prioritize requirements for this feature differently I would like to read your remix of my list (and what project are you minuting meetings for? if it's a very different type than the one I've been working on then maybe we have different requirements). Also, when you say "completely non-working" I'm not sure what you mean. I can successfully log in and edit pages, and the changes then display on the site. Perhaps you mean that the granularity of editing rights is inadequate? I don't intend to fight anyone, but thank you for the kind wishes! -- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc ___ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
Re: [pydotorg-www] some requests for a meeting minuting feature on www.python.org
On 12.06.2020 18:30, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: > I spoke with Ernest a few weeks ago about how www.python.org could > become a better home for public minutes of meetings. So here is my > current thinking - this is long, but I want to share it in public in > case it helps others understand the work. You may have noticed: the python.org website has a completely non-working CMS. If you want to achieve collaboration, I'd strongly suggest looking for something different (e.g. the NextCloud/OnlyOffice idea you're floating) and focus on that. The documents would then appear under a subdomain, but at least there'd be proper control over who gets to edit what and, what's really more important, enables other people than the handful with python.org editing rights to submit content in a user friendly way. BTW: I may sound a bit negative on all this. That's because I had been fighting to make python.org more user (= people providing and maintaining content) friendly for several years without success. If you have more luck: more power to you :-) > Context: > > Right now, www.python.org hosts the board meeting minutes > https://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/ . We talked about > maybe also making space for working group/project meeting minutes, like > the ones I write up and currently host on the wiki (example: > https://wiki.python.org/psf/PackagingWG#Dependency_resolver_and_user_experience_improvements_for_pip > ). > > In the call, Ernest asked me to list what would be important in a > minuting package for www.python.org, distinguishing "required" from > "heavily encouraged" to "dream features". > > > Current workflow: > > Right now, in order to minute meetings of Packaging WG-funded projects, I: > > * use an Etherpad at pad.sfconservancy.org (just because it's a public > and reliable EtherPad instance) and take notes with bullet points > * after the meeting, use its Export function to export to plain text > * mess with the formatting to adjust to MoinMoin wiki syntax > * go to https://wiki.python.org/psf/PackagingWG and create a new > placeholder link in the table of meeting notes, annotating with the > description, type (meeting notes), and date > * copy the text into that page, fix formatting, and hit Save > * erase the meeting notes from the Etherpad and hyperlink to the > archived notes > > > What I want: > > For the process in general, I have 3 core values: > * Ease of writing: it should be easy for me and for other meeting > attendees to collaborate on writing minutes, live, during the meeting, > in a reasonably lightweight syntax (such as Markdown) > * Privacy: as we write the minutes, they should be private to meeting > attendees, so we can discuss things we then redact before sharing > (vacations, burnout, criticism of other people or projects) > * Transparency: the final minutes should be public where anyone can read > them, without having to log in anywhere, and linkable > > > As I understand it, a minuting system on www.python.org would have a > hierarchy like PSF -> Working Group -> Project. Example: PSF -> > Packaging WG -> Pip dependency resolver & UX improvements. > > > Required: > > * Discoverability: the public minutes should be easy to find from a > central project info hub, and show up in search engine results. > * Linkability: each meeting should have some unique URL or anchor tag, > so that it's easy to link to minutes within an issue or mailing list post. > * Ease of formatting: some subset of HTML, Markdown, and > reStructuredText should be supported. > > > Heavily encouraged: > > * Automated table of contents on the Project page. Should include (by > default) date and title of meeting, and it should be possible for me to > also manually append (maybe in a separate list) links to relevant blog > posts, reports, podcasts, etc. > * Automated table of contents on the Working Group page to all Projects > underneath it. > * Finding aid/intro: A structure on each Project page that includes a > freeform text field but also encourages certain fields (project name, > list of participants, estimated start and end dates). > * Ease of formatting: Markdown support. > * Ease of import: a batch process to import old minutes from > wiki.python.org, even if I then have to mess with formatting. > * Granular privileges: I'd like to let all my team members add minutes > within our chunk of the site hierarchy. > * Ease of sign-on: Single sign-on with other PSF systems. > * Minutes structure: Structured text fields for meeting title, list of > participants, discussion, and Next Steps/TODOs/Commitments. > > > Dream: > > * Ease of navigation: from a particular minutes entry, I'd love to be > able to click Next or Previous to go to the next/previous entry within > that project chronologically. > * Ease of import: take an HTML import from Etherpad and strip the colors > and other unnecessary syntax. > * Ease of import: On some note-taking platform (could be HackMD, > Etherpad,
[pydotorg-www] some requests for a meeting minuting feature on www.python.org
I spoke with Ernest a few weeks ago about how www.python.org could become a better home for public minutes of meetings. So here is my current thinking - this is long, but I want to share it in public in case it helps others understand the work. Context: Right now, www.python.org hosts the board meeting minutes https://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/ . We talked about maybe also making space for working group/project meeting minutes, like the ones I write up and currently host on the wiki (example: https://wiki.python.org/psf/PackagingWG#Dependency_resolver_and_user_experience_improvements_for_pip ). In the call, Ernest asked me to list what would be important in a minuting package for www.python.org, distinguishing "required" from "heavily encouraged" to "dream features". Current workflow: Right now, in order to minute meetings of Packaging WG-funded projects, I: * use an Etherpad at pad.sfconservancy.org (just because it's a public and reliable EtherPad instance) and take notes with bullet points * after the meeting, use its Export function to export to plain text * mess with the formatting to adjust to MoinMoin wiki syntax * go to https://wiki.python.org/psf/PackagingWG and create a new placeholder link in the table of meeting notes, annotating with the description, type (meeting notes), and date * copy the text into that page, fix formatting, and hit Save * erase the meeting notes from the Etherpad and hyperlink to the archived notes What I want: For the process in general, I have 3 core values: * Ease of writing: it should be easy for me and for other meeting attendees to collaborate on writing minutes, live, during the meeting, in a reasonably lightweight syntax (such as Markdown) * Privacy: as we write the minutes, they should be private to meeting attendees, so we can discuss things we then redact before sharing (vacations, burnout, criticism of other people or projects) * Transparency: the final minutes should be public where anyone can read them, without having to log in anywhere, and linkable As I understand it, a minuting system on www.python.org would have a hierarchy like PSF -> Working Group -> Project. Example: PSF -> Packaging WG -> Pip dependency resolver & UX improvements. Required: * Discoverability: the public minutes should be easy to find from a central project info hub, and show up in search engine results. * Linkability: each meeting should have some unique URL or anchor tag, so that it's easy to link to minutes within an issue or mailing list post. * Ease of formatting: some subset of HTML, Markdown, and reStructuredText should be supported. Heavily encouraged: * Automated table of contents on the Project page. Should include (by default) date and title of meeting, and it should be possible for me to also manually append (maybe in a separate list) links to relevant blog posts, reports, podcasts, etc. * Automated table of contents on the Working Group page to all Projects underneath it. * Finding aid/intro: A structure on each Project page that includes a freeform text field but also encourages certain fields (project name, list of participants, estimated start and end dates). * Ease of formatting: Markdown support. * Ease of import: a batch process to import old minutes from wiki.python.org, even if I then have to mess with formatting. * Granular privileges: I'd like to let all my team members add minutes within our chunk of the site hierarchy. * Ease of sign-on: Single sign-on with other PSF systems. * Minutes structure: Structured text fields for meeting title, list of participants, discussion, and Next Steps/TODOs/Commitments. Dream: * Ease of navigation: from a particular minutes entry, I'd love to be able to click Next or Previous to go to the next/previous entry within that project chronologically. * Ease of import: take an HTML import from Etherpad and strip the colors and other unnecessary syntax. * Ease of import: On some note-taking platform (could be HackMD, Etherpad, Dropbox Paper, Google Docs, Nextcloud, or something else), I could choose an option to export to a new www.python.org minute. The new draft would autopopulate, so I could make changes and click Publish, and then it would show up at the right URL and be present in a Table of Contents automagically. * Ease of formatting: support MoinMoin wiki syntax (so I can copy old stuff easily). * Ease of reporting: this is really out-there, but if I could use some feature to automatically pull out the top-level discussion headings from each minute, and make a list of "here's what we discussed", then I could use that when publicizing the meeting notes, and it would make people more likely to read them. * Analytics: so I could see who is linking to those notes and where they're being referred to. -- Sumana Harihareswara Changeset Consulting https://changeset.nyc ___ pydotorg-www mailing
