Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
On 16 September 2010 13:03, Saravanan Shanmugham sa...@yahoo.com wrote: Either way, it looks like there i not much enthusiasm for porting Shedskin on PyPy and have pypy generate a compiler instead of an interpreter. In a sense, it already does :). And of course translation is compilation, too. From various threads on python.org as well pypy itself, I see a lot of interest in a compiler for a staticaly typed subset of python. I also feel that a statically typed subset of python can be faster than the dynamic superset. It can be, there's nothing stopping you from dynamically compiling a static language, and feeding back profiling information is easy too. It's just probably not going to be *that* much faster to be of value at the end of the day. Then again, the end of the day could be a long way away. I can see why some might feel that RPython is not for general use and only for language development. But what totally surprises me though is that as a language developer, I would want RPython to be as flexible as possibile within feasibility of course. You also have to look at it from the other perspective - that of someone implementing a backend or translation aspect, such as a garbage collector or a JIT compiler generator. This is my perspective coming to pypy - I am experimenting with a range of optimisations based on extensive region and effect analysis, and I fear rpython already makes this difficult. For example, the use of abstract interpretation to generate the flowgraph IR means that you now have no information about which loop is the 'outer' one, and that information can be useful in generating heuristics. Similar things could be said about the JIT and generators, which is not something I have looked at extensively, but dealing with the generator case would have been implicit from the start if the IR used a CPS transform to represent all instruction flow. In short: rpython is complicated enough already. It happens to do the job it was created for, but not a whole lot more than that. It happens to be well suited to my experiments for two unrelated reasons*. But I can't imagine choosing it to write extension modules or inner loops - there are plenty of languages that do it better, like cython, pyrex, D, cyclone, SML, etc. * it's (memory) safe and the rffi is sane, particularly about letting native code deal with rpython objects. And thanks to the pypy python interpreter, there's a large body of code to test it on. -- William Leslie ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
Hi, On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Bea During b...@changemaker.nu wrote: Maybe we should be clear in our documentation somewhere on where we stand regarding RPython What about renaming it first? There is at least one other project that uses the name RPython. What about something like InterpPy or InterpPython to make it clear that it's supposed to be used to write interpreters? It doesn't sound terrific but I don't really care -- so, comments welcome, but please no infinite discussion on the pros and cons of various names. A bientôt, Armin. ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Armin Rigo ar...@tunes.org wrote: Hi Maciej, On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com wrote: While we're at it, how about splitting the translation toolchain from pypy interpreter? I don't mean on technical merits, it can still be the same or mostly the same source codebase, but more on the conceptual level, to have 2 different websites names etc. I don't care too much right now. My motivation was to make RPython *less* visible, not create a second website for the translation toolchain (which would make RPython more visible). I don't think it's hideable. What we can do instead is to leave some kind of description why it is like it is and what it is. Trying to hide it means to some people that we have an awesome tool that we don't want to share. Instead it's worth explaining why we don't share this (because it's eg hard to use) A bientôt, Armin. ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
Hi, On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it's hideable. Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not really trying to hide it. But I'm also not really trying to push it forward (which seems to be what creating a website for it would do). Armin ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
On 13/09/10 10:27, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote: Is it really about interpreters? (what's interpreter-specific after all in RPython) or is it just that it's hard to use and does not integrate with CPython well? my point if that it's definitely good enough for writing interpreters. For the rest, it's a bit unknown (in the sense that nobody has ever tried), and we don't care about knowing :-) ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
2010/9/13 Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Armin Rigo ar...@tunes.org wrote: Hi, On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Bea During b...@changemaker.nu wrote: Maybe we should be clear in our documentation somewhere on where we stand regarding RPython What about renaming it first? There is at least one other project that uses the name RPython. What about something like InterpPy or InterpPython to make it clear that it's supposed to be used to write interpreters? It doesn't sound terrific but I don't really care -- so, comments welcome, but please no infinite discussion on the pros and cons of various names. While we're at it, how about splitting the translation toolchain from pypy interpreter? I don't mean on technical merits, it can still be the same or mostly the same source codebase, but more on the conceptual level, to have 2 different websites names etc. -0. We don't need more websites/trees to maintain. Anyway, it's not clear to me where the split would be, since the translator and the python interpreter are very interdependent. -- Regards, Benjamin ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list
No I didn't create the mailing list. Possibly Hart's Antler who did. And the money to PyPy had no strings attached. I really hope PyPy replaces CPython as the standard python sooner, rather than later. True. That yall are not interested in standardizing an implicitly static subset of Python that can be used to create compiled executables or python extension libraries. But if PyPy gains momentum, I am pretty sure this idea will gain momentum eventually. Keep the good work. Sarvi - Original Message From: Armin Rigo ar...@tunes.org To: pypy-dev@codespeak.net Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 7:57:41 AM Subject: [pypy-dev] External RPython mailing list Hi, To anyone interested, Sarvi(?) created an RPython mailing list (Thanks Bea for spotting this): http://pyppet.blogspot.com/2010/09/rpython-mailing-list.html The following paragraph should have been posted as a comment to that blog post, but it doesn't record my post no matter how much I try, so I'll put it here: Ah, sorry about the money issue. I didn't realize that you already sent it to us; I misunderstood that you would not send it at all after we told you that we don't have resources and motivation to make RPython more user-friendly (even with $200). Now I suppose that we can arrange for you to get the money back if you like, or else thank you properly for it if it's ours to keep anyway :-) About the non-money issue, I end up looking like the bad guy. I suppose I should not have tried to say and repeat no so many times in the previous thread in increasingly bad tones; now Sarvi points only to my most negative e-mail. A bientôt, Armin ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
